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superzamp
The current AML/CTF regulations frameworks can only lead to extremely opaque implementations and end-user experiences. For that reason alone, it makes sense to keep the bulk of your money in a place (meaning, a mainstreet financial institution) where you'll be able to get in touch with a real human and have proper ways of recourse should your account be the unfortunate target of overzealous fraud-screening algorithms. You don't want a FAANG-like random termination account procedures with anything related to your money, which is unfortunately the experience that many new-gen finance apps are delivering right now.
philipwhiuk
I don't know that this would have been any better - they have the same fraud/AML laws to comply with.
thiago_fm
You can go to their brick-and-mortar building, say you want your money, call the police, give them a hard time even if they can't fix your issue, so they try to avoid it next time.
Pure online banking doesn't offer this option. For instance, I still even keep my printed quarter receipts just in case.
People trust technology too much, it's all well until it isn't, and you understand how much of your life you trusted to those companies.
pawelwentpawel
Unfortunately, not always. I had once my account frozen by one of the UK's largest banks for days. The reason? Apparently they didn't have my mobile phone number. They never asked for it. Also, on multiple occasions their online banking was so broken that one wasn't even able to use it. The plus is that indeed, if something goes wrong, after a long time of inconvenient waiting, a human will eventually pick up the phone. The drawback is that sometimes they are so technologically broken that fixing things will take ages.
I recommend distributing even small sums of money across as many accounts as you have. Some in Revolut, some in Wise, some in a normal bank. There is a number of reasons for which access to your bank account can be blocked (fraud attempt, stolen SIM card, stolen card etc.) so the more backup you have, the better off you should be. As the person above said, keeping printed receipts might also be useful for legal purposes.
dalyons
There are a particular set of AML/KYC laws for which none of that will ever help. They can’t tell you why, they can’t stop it next time. It sucks but there’s nothing any financial org can do about it.
alxmng
Good luck with that. I had my account frozen at the biggest bank in USA, with no notice or explanation. When I went into the bank they pretty much said "sorry". Almost two weeks later my account was unfrozen again without notice or explanation.
cbg0
It definitely would have, because you can walk into a branch office and talk to a real person, not some AI chat bot that creates a ticket after boring you to death with unhelpful answers, and then you end up waiting for that to be looked at and async back and forth that can take days.
rvnx
It may unfortunately not help, in such cases, the salesman sitting in the bank ("account representative") is not more useful than a flower in an office pot.
All they can do is to tell you to wait for weeks for feedback, and if you don't comply, call the security on you.
splix
This real person doesn't really have any significant advantage.
From my personal experience, when you have a problem the only thing they can do is to call someone and talk on your behalf, and you can do the same from home, btw. The only advantage the banker has in this case is that they have those numbers on fast dial. But keep in mind that even if you called the right department nothing can be resolved immediately and all the following communications are by paper mail, so it takes months to recover your funds.
ritzaco
interestingly my brick-and-mortar bank (ING Netherlands) also stopped accepting walk in appointments during covid and conveniently kept that on now. So you have to deal with this shit anyway just to talk to someone, but yes at least there are still people
philipwhiuk
In all likelyhood they have little more to go on than the same script the AI has, except maybe they also watched a training video published a long time ago that is now out of date.
amerkhalid
We don’t hear about traditional banks freezing money as much online banks. Maybe people who use traditional banks are mostly running traditional businesses with well understood risk profiles.
Also traditional banks make you go through a lot of paperwork upfront, so they probably don’t have as much as risk online banks which approve everyone without much paperwork. So that’s why online banks aggressively block anyone who is high risk and start doing big enough volume.
dathinab
but they have a very different approach wrt. _how_ they comply with them
also as important there is an additional hop in the money transfer involving two institutions, this might not help you if there is e.g. money frozen because of an police investigation, but for algorithms running rogue it can help to have money in two different organizations.
EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK
True, while revolut/cash app provide some services banks don't, I only keep minimal amount of money in them at any given time, and for as short time as possible.
ritzaco
And to add
- They do not offer live chat at the moment because they are too busy.
- The phone waiting times are up to 30 minutes. I've called them many times and they are completely unable to do anything as they are the 'support' team and it all depends on the 'verification' team.
- They respond to emails with canned responses, usually 2-3 days
- They respond on Twitter in public and by DM. In public, they make it sound like they really care and ask to DM. If you DM, you get an AI bot that might eventually put you through to an agent if you find the correct way through the decision tree. Then the agent will tell you that they are working as fast as they can and you should wait another 10 working days and see what happens.
laughingparrot
Have you tried contacting them via complaints-team[at]wise.com and complaints[at]wise.com? This has worked for me pretty well in the past.
https://wise.com/help/articles/2235393/how-do-i-make-a-compl...
jon-wood
This is the way to go. "A complaint" in the financial world is a very specific thing, it's not just someone having a grumble about things. Financial Conduct Authority regulations mean that once a formal complaint has been raised the company is obliged to resolve that complaint within a specified time frame, and if they don't you can escalate it to the FCA, who on investigating can issue substantial penalties if the company is found to be at fault. All financial companies have internal teams whose entire job is resolving complaints before that happens.
kotaKat
This. You want to speak to the people in the bank whose KPI is "zero regulatory actions this quarter", not the people whose KPI is some bullshit like customer satisfaction eNPS scores.
pc2slow4webpack
[flagged]
WendyTheWillow
No it doesn’t?
laughingparrot
Some people may use HN in read-only mode, and if they come across something where they think they can assist, they have to create an account. Sounds crazy I know.
chalcolithic
there's a chance they're actually having technical difficulties my tracking number was invalid for more than a day just a few days ago
jacquesm
Someone suggested I get a Wise account a short while ago because it's cheaper than bank transfers. But I've never seen any kind of 'account freezing' from my bank that wasn't to protect me (for instance: by doing wire transfers from three different continents inside of 24 hours). But I've had trouble with just about any other PSP/money transmitter service in one form or another and I'm very wary of giving them access to my accounts and/or using them for significant transfers.
I don't actually care all that much about the transaction fees, but I really care about my payments reaching their destination and the fact that my reputation is tied into my ability to pay people agreed upon amounts in time for work performed. On their end they rely on me and these middlemen are welcome to their cut but in return they should do what they promise. Wise looks particularly bad here because they overran their self imposed deadline, which is too long any way. Payments in flight should be dealt with inside of 24 hours, you either forward the money to the destination or you refund to the originator so that they can pursue other ways to pay. Because otherwise you are going to cause massive problems, both for the originator and the recipient.
The only excuse would be a court order to seize the money. Other than that I can't see any reason why a money transmitter would seize payments unless it is inbound credit card payments where they are afraid of chargebacks. But that should be a contractually agreed upon hold-back, not something capricious.
chatmasta
Agreed. If you have KYC questions, reject the transfer and send it back (or better yet, don't let the customer initiate the transaction in the first place). Holding it for any longer than 24 hours is no different from ransoming it.
However, I'm not sure this logic applies to OP situation, since it sounds like their money is being held in Wise bank accounts (which store money in them). So there is not necessarily a particular transaction to reverse.
fancythat
I don't want to sound negative, but Wise is working for most people and even for myself almost all the time.
The fact that you are being rejected by Revolut and Airwallex simply means that there is something fundamentally wrong on how you do your money transfers. I am not saying you are doing something criminal, but rather that your methods are raising alarms all over their systems.
Regarding your funds, Wise is supervised by FCA, Financial Conduct Authority in the UK, and a lot of the times, writing email to them might get things started.
Now, for those that are saying that Wise is not a bank and therefore the funds are not secured, hear me out:
Money transfer services need to have 100% of your money covered in cash, unless you opt-in on interest earnings and similar additional products, but even though those are also protected in some way (check Wise faq).
Wise being a large company, has multiple bank accounts spread around the world, meaning that they are probably more resilient to the negative events than even some larger banks in your country.
Of course, be careful with your money, never trust anyone 100%, always spread your risks, but generally speaking, Wise and similar services are the next best thing to hopping on the plane and opening bank account in different countries.
Source: working in Fintech atm
x-complexity
> I don't want to sound negative, but Wise is working for most people and even for myself almost all the time.
Just because it's working for you, doesn't mean it's not working for them. Their funds are still frozen.
> The fact that you are being rejected by Revolut and Airwallex simply means that there is something fundamentally wrong on how you do your money transfers. I am not saying you are doing something criminal, but rather that your methods are raising alarms all over their systems.
"I am not saying you are doing something criminal"
The fact that you're even ceding grounds in the first place is part of the problem. Again, they haven't done anything to warrant this behavior. Why isn't "innocent until proven guilty" being applied here?
agilob
They did the same to me once, they wanted an explanation what my surname means, my surname and date of a workshop where included in the transfer reference. They froze it and refused to release it for a few weeks. How do I explain what my surname means, it's literally my surname, they have it in sender details too? Every time I tried to explain it, my email history got picked up by somebody else, who didn't read the past emails and asked me the same stupid question again and again. Their CS never picked up the phone, I literally spent whole working day waiting during "busy hours". They responded to my email with 2-4 days delayed. I eventually told them to fuck off and refund the money. To prove a point I made exactly the same transfer using Revolut and recipient had the money next working day at 8am.
ValentineC
I remember your story from this! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35341666
agilob
Yup, that's still my the worst banking experience.
superchroma
Prove a point to who?
jan_g
I know this won't help you much, but as a point of reference. Last year they've blocked my account as well and wanted some documentation/proofs for their verification team. Which I provided the same day, but then it took nearly 4 weeks to clear. Like you, I've asked them for feedback, but the response was the usual "The verification team is busy".
anonzzzies
Yeah, that's usually the thing; 'we are working as fast as we can for you, but this department is really busy' for something that takes 5 minutes. And that for weeks.
AdamN
I loved Wise when I first moved to Berlin from Seattle. After a few months though I just got used to Deutsche Bank and although their site is about a decade (or more!) behind Chase, I've discovered that being with a real bank is better in most ways. I just wish there was a modern, full service bank in Berlin - I would switch to that if it existed.
earthnail
DKB is pretty decent, and you can withdraw money without fees on all ATMs as long as you withdraw >= 100€ in one go. Berlin is absolutely ridiculous with ATM fees.
Finanztip.de should be your go-to resource in Germany for questions like that. It's a non-profit, funded by a Fintech guy who decided to start it after his large exit. All articles are written by journalists. It's a real gem.
kioleanu
Not sure about the whole world, but in Germany and the EU, the limit is 50EUR for withdrawing money from DKB.
There are, of course, also disadvantages, like the fact that the new online banking apps are utter shit and offer maybe half of the functionality the old apps offered, but still they sunsetted them.
Advantages are that the have a really good exchange rate when paying with the card in foreign currency. Like really good and they don't charge the 2% tax per transaction that other banks charge.
AdamN
DeutscheBank has free ATM withdrawals as long as it's from Cash Group (Commerzbank, etc...) which are pretty much everywhere.
searchableguy
> I've discovered that being with a real bank is better in most ways
Same in India. I tried using a neobank but quickly closed the account. They don't have the services traditional banks do and everything was slower than it is in my current bank. My current bank will pick up any paper and signature they need from home or deliver any documents to home the same day.
I get better Forex rate than wise or any startup. The target audience for these neobank are college students or new working people.
For reference, I use ICICI which is the third largest bank in India.
mousetree
Commerzbank is suprisingly good. Modern app, English app, responsive phone support. Big balance sheet.
max_hammer
Also, no monthly fees if you get credit of >700€ per month
mcntsh
Berliner Sparkasse?
csomar
First, Wise is not your bank. It's a dodgy money-transmitter business.
Second, never keep a balance in Wise. Just use it for transfers. It's good for US/EU since transfers are close to instant. If they are instant in South Africa, you should be able to make a transfer using SEPA, then to a South African bank. Rinse and repeat so you don't get $40k stuck.
One thing I noticed about these fintech companies is that they won't ban you if you don't keep a balance. I had lots of troubles with freezing funds with other fintechs (ie: PayPal, Skrill, etc..) but that stopped once I stopped having a balance with them. That is interesting, because my flow with them now is "$xxx received, $xxx sent". Which should, theoretically, trigger a money laundering alert.
I am biased to say, at this point, that they are maliciously freezing money but I do not have any proof of that at the moment.
paraselene_
"since transfers are close to instant" for US, no?
ACH pull/push takes days to get credit either way, wire is faster but still no where close to instant? I know SEPA "can" be instant, but AFAIK wise doesn't do (near)instant transfers to/from US.
csomar
I don't know but ACH times have been variable for me from almost instant (few minutes) to a few days. But for Wise, it's usually a 10 minutes window.
sneak
> Second, never keep a balance in Wise. Just use it for transfers. It's good for US/EU since transfers are close to instant.
These two statements seem to contradict each other. How can you have an instant transfer (out) if you don't keep a balance?
csomar
As in clear "employee 1" transfer and then move to "employee 2". So in case you get frozen, you only get 2-3k instead of 40k.
threeseed
> we get paid by a few customers around the world every month and pay out contractors also around the world
Which would look exactly like money laundering, tax evasion, terrorism financing etc especially if those customers/contractors are based in questionable countries.
So not surprised you've triggered their AML/KYC checks.
ColonelBlimp
Fair enough. However, being able to "get paid by a few customers around the world every month and pay out contractors also around the world" is what Wise claim they offer to their customers. From their website: "Our dream is for people to live and work anywhere seamlessly. That means money without borders: moving it instantly, transparently, conveniently, and — eventually — for free."
umanwizard
> especially if those customers/contractors are based in questionable countries.
South Africa has lots of problems, but as far as I know terrorism financing and being a hub for money laundering or tax evasion aren’t among them. I could be wrong, but I’ve never heard about South Africa in that context.
threeseed
According to this [1], South Africa is on the list of FATF high-risk countries.
Surprised Wise even allowed them to make a single transaction before doing the check.
[1] https://www.fatf-gafi.org/en/publications/High-risk-and-othe...
helsinkiandrew
> but Wise, my bank
I also use Wise for my "banking services", but remember that Wise is NOT a bank, it's not regulated or insured as one.
For alternatives - doing cross border service is too much adminstration and legal bother for most of the new online services - try an old fashioned bank that has an international presence. At worst you may have to visit an office (from the Netherlands you could make the trip in a day for less than €100), but the service will be an order of magnitude greater.
anonzzzies
Yes, for the company we have a large brick & mortar international bank (with custom contracts on money transfer fees) and a backup brick & mortar bank where we put our money that is marked for investments. For payments to staff and expenses, we use Wise + Revolut (both) and we all have both cards. This seems to get us the best rates with the least risk. It's a little bit more expensive than just using Revolut or Wise, but having our funds frozen would be lot more expensive.
EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK
If you opt to receive interest on your balance (I don't see a reason not to), your money will be kept in JPMorgan Chase Bank, NA, and FDIC insured.
SXX
Hope your problem will be resolved soon. For our company AML-check was usually done within a week and caused by fact that our game publisher that money come from was based in Dubai.
But if for some reason it take more than 2 weeks to unfreeze your account and they are not responding make sure to make complain with FCA. As Wise HQ located in UK it's the best way to deal with them:
Yeah I personally only know that compaining to FCA does indeed work for consumers, but I pretty certain it will for business account too. UK regulators also usually reply fast enough.
mhaberl
This morning, my accountant warned me that Wise has frozen the funds of many of their clients, mostly freelance software developers, and they've been blocked for weeks now. This freelancers are not related in any way (except having the same accountant).
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So I know there are a lot of stories like this and this is not the first or the last one, but Wise, my bank, froze all our main operational bank accounts last Monday. They want proof of 'the source of my funds'. I have been a client with them for over three years but apparently that does not count for anything.
I've done everything they want but their verification team is "busy" and needs "5 working days" to check what I submitted. That was 10 days ago - I'm not sure how many days per week they regard as working days.
Luckily, because I have heard of Wise, Stripe, etc doing this on a regular basis I very strictly transfer any excess funds to a real brick-and-mortar bank, but this could easily have caused huge cashflow problems if I hadn't. As it is, it's pretty hard to set up an alternative, pay contractors etc etc, but I figured it's a good reminder for others who might be going "Surely if I don't do anything wrong they won't do anything bad to me right?"
Some of the other stories have been from people who turned out to be doing things - e.g. cryptocurrency trading - where I can kind of see why their finance providers would maybe get suspicious of illegal activity. We (Ritza) just offer technical writing services, which means we get paid by a few customers around the world every month and pay out contractors also around the world. We're headquartered in the Netherlands, not Cayman Islands or Mauritius or anything dodgy, and we pay out to people mainly in South Africa.
Posting as a warning to others, but also if you know of any alternatives to Wise that serve EU businesses I am all ears. I tried Revolut Business and Airwallex and got a generic "We can't offer you services at this time and you can't appeal and we can't tell you why" rejection from both of them. I would love to know if I'm on some kind of list and how I got there if I am.
https://x.com/sixhobbits/status/1714531389326979112?s=20
https://x.com/sixhobbits/status/1713084385585504359