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kunwon1
I have worked professionally with access control and surveillance. I can give you two manufacturer recommendations: Axis and Geovision.
Axis cameras are high end and expensive, but they will, in my experience, do anything an IP camera could reasonably be expected to do, and they will do it well. They are European in origin and are available from various retail outlets to ship this week.
Geovision cameras are low end and not expensive. They are Taiwanese in origin and are pretty easy to find.
I have personally configured a wide range of cameras from both of these manufacturers and I have never needed an app or internet connectivity. It's been a few years since I looked at Geovision's product lineup though, my information is not 100% current. I don't have any specific camera recommendations. If I were setting up a home NVR today, I would buy Geovision cameras and put them on an isolated network.
Both of these manufacturers are nominally ONVIF compliant (ONVIF compliance is a mixed bag and can't be fully trusted from any manufacturer IMO) and have readily accessible RTSP streams
EvanAnderson
I'll throw out a word of support for both Geovision and Axis.
My Geovision experience is also not current either. I've got three Customers using their cameras in isolated VLANs w/o Internet access. Both hardware and software reliability have been very good. Some of the outdoor units are coming up on 7 years old and still working fine. I think, in total, there are around 300 (mostly indoor) cameras in all their systems combined.
I work at a site w/ >100 Axis cameras, also w/o Internet access. They're phenomenal devices-- built like tanks-- but very expensive. I particularly like that you get root on the cameras (which are running Linux). There are third-party applications that can run directly on the cameras.
bradfitz
Another recommendation for Axis here. I've used dozens of them for almost 20 years now and they've been rock solid, technically and support-wise.
But they're expensive. They do have cheaper models nowadays, though. In addition to explosion-proof ones: https://www.axis.com/en-us/products/explosion-protected-came...
EvanAnderson
Fun story re: the term "explosion-proof":
I was given a tour of an industrial facility where conditions required explosion-proof equipment. The tour guide made a point of calling out the explosion-proof motors in one of the rooms.
One of the other tour group members asked the question "Why would it matter if these motors survived an explosion?"
I visualized the facility exploding in a fiery blaze and a motor, fully intact, tracing a high parabola into the sky and landing, unscathed, in the front yard of a house.
The tour guide had to awkwardly answer: "Explosion-proof means that it won't cause an explosion."
AdamJacobMuller
I don't think it's a silly question, my first thought about explosion proof would also be able to survive some level of explosion.
Especially for cameras in potentially hazardous or critical areas, being able to capture details of their final moments could be important (obviously great to have cameras which [also] don't cause explosions in the first place).
I can also think of many situations in which you would want motors which are rated to survive for some time through an explosion, for example something which is powering a fire sprinkler or ventilation system to give people time to escape. The military has "battle switches" on lots of equipment for this reason, better to remove safeties and destroy the equipment than have the equipment protect itself and stop working in a critical situation, potentially costing a soldier their life.
dingaling
> "Explosion-proof means that it won't cause an explosion."
Surely that should be "non-explosive".
Otherwise rain-proof and fire-proof could have interesting overloaded definitions...
idbehold
> Explosion-proof means that it won't cause an explosion
Wait, what? The implication is that their other cameras regularly cause explosions?
kayfox
> "Explosion-proof means that it won't cause an explosion."
Another industry term for this is Intrinsically Safe.
silisili
Interesting. I'd have made the same assumption. GPs link uses the term 'explosion protected', and is definitely talking about the former, being safe in an explosion.
undefined
adolph
One of the "explosion proof" ones even has a little windshield washer/wiper!
XPQ1785
Starts the washer. When the sequence starts, the camera moves to the configured position to receive the wash spray. When the whole wash sequence is completed, the camera returns to its previous position. This icon is only visible when the washer is connected and configured.
Starts the wiper.*
ce4
Axis is cool, they once even had (still have?) their own CPU / ISA (ETRAX CRIS) plus a Linux port:
https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/cris/README
Edit: Official Linux support was removed with 4.17 in 2018
kayfox
The ETRAX CRIS has been superseded by ARM Cortex-M in the latest ARTPEC (Axis Real Time Picture Encoder Chip) chips these days. For a period of time in between those two architectures the ARTPEC chips used MIPS as a core.
sebcat
Still used a bunch of CRIS cores for ARTPEC-6 for scheduling scaler and trfm jobs and some other things, are they completely gone now?
thewebcount
Christ on a cracker, Axis' website is horrible! I saw one model that looked interesting, but can't find a price. You have to click on "How to Buy" to get redirected to another page where you then have to click on "Find a Reseller Near Me" which takes you to a form you have to fill out with a bunch of personal information and then send to them, and maybe someone will get back to you. How do these companies stay in business?
shostack
You aren't their target customer. Installers and resellers already know them or have a lower friction way to buy. They want you to work through resellers and not have to bother with supporting you directly.
LordDragonfang
By selling mostly to business clients, where that sort of nonsense (no prices up front, contact for a quote) is more of a norm. Entities that are buying a dozen or dozens of cameras and other items to outfit a building, and plan on negotiating on volume.
cbzoiav
The price isn't listed because it depends on bulk, anticipated support and support contracts (ongoing revenue), anticipated future sales etc.
If an independent shop wants 2 cameras you charge them enough to make a profit on the overhead of dealing with them (or point them to a retailer if they want less than a pallet).
If Walmart want 2 cameras to try out you give them (or loan them) to them for free knowing if they like them you'll be shipping them by the pallet for years.
starky
The security camera industry works through a network of integrators that install the cameras for end customers. These companies are primarily B2B, they don't have any interest in B2C sales of just a couple cameras.
l33tman
Axis doesn't sell to customers directly (not even to businesses), they sell exclusively to distributors that in turn sell to well-stocked online computer stores from where you can buy them like any other tech product
unwind
Classic nit pick triggered by at least some national tech pride: Axis Communications [1] is from Sweden. Founded in 1984, they are pretty cool.
Edit: added missing word.
bejd
Can also recommend Axis. At work we've got a server with a couple hundred cameras connected and they're extremely reliable. Software is easy to use, regular firmware updates (even for older cameras), and in my few dealings with Axis support they've been great.
binkHN
> ...regular firmware updates (even for older cameras)...
Such a rarity nowadays--great to hear.
Pr0ject217
I did a fairly generic search for Geovision and landed on this: https://www.acronis.com/en-us/blog/posts/backdoor-wide-open-...
(not to fear-monger, just something to note)
red-iron-pine
> Acronis’ security team found four critical vulnerabilities in GeoVision's devices, including a backdoor password with admin privileges, the reuse of cryptographic keys, and the disclosure of private keys to everyone. All of these vulnerabilities could allow state-sponsored attackers to intercept potential traffic.
akerl_
I can second this. I have several Axis M1065-LW cameras inside (running on wall plugs and wifi) and several Axis P1447-LE externally (running on PoE).
Would recommend both of them. Notably, I had one exterior camera fail (wouldn’t run off PoE), and the Axis support/RMA process was smooth and fast.
kova12
P1447-LE is sold for over $500 used. What is it that's inside of that camera, which makes it so pricey?!
akerl_
It's a workhorse. It operates at a decent resolution/FPS, as security cameras go, it can handle pretty much any weather conditions, and Axis will stand by it if it breaks.
It also, relevantly for this thread, will do standard video transmission w/o any cloud/app components.
Most camera you get that are cheaper are trading off in one or more of these areas to recoup cost.
dboreham
The fact that someone will reply to your support email and fix bugs?
nominallyn
I'm thinking of running outdoor Axis cameras. Do you have any advice or links on how to route these safely, including grounding and surge protection? Mine will be mounting on the roof soffit.
jmuguy
If you're going to use PoE (you should) you can get in line surge protectors. Although to be honest - I've used PoE cameras for years, both in the home and professionally, and never bothered with these. I'm not sure what they're protecting against, unless you think lightning is going to strike the camera itself.
Otherwise its just a single ethernet line from the camera to your switch, Axis cameras (and any others that support PoE and outdoor installs) have a nice shielded bit that the cable goes into at the camera end so its protected from the elements.
akerl_
Maybe I'm just naive, but I've got 5 of them mounted externally. They're attached to in-wall rated CAT6 cable, but otherwise aren't grounded or surge protected. None of them are above 60% of the height of the walls they're mounted on, but even if I mounted them higher I'm not too worried.
cameron_b
I want to add a term that I haven't seen in this discussion so far. IP cameras can interoperate with Open Standard NVR systems using ONVIF. [0]
ONVIF cameras, or cameras that support ONVIF are capable of communicating settings and streaming video to recording servers without intermediaries. RTSP or MJPEG are available as media layers ( not the only ones, but ones called out so far in the conversation as desirable for viewing and recording), but the ONVIF configuration makes this easier.
Looking for ONVIF cameras will help you find cameras that might not NEED the app for full functionality use even though, like Reolink, they may offer one. The NVR is the appropriate "glue" for those app functions.
Examples of ONVIF NVRs are not rare, but self-hostable, and free to try or use at some scale are hard to find. These are often the Big Boys. Milestone XProtect, Senstar [ Aimetis] Symphony, but also more DIY options like iSpy, Blueiris, and things in the middle, like Orchid from IPConfigure [1] that you can run on a Raspberry Pi at a small scale, or a Hybrid Cloud setup for enterprise use.
[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ONVIF [1] - https://www.ipconfigure.com/
KyleBerezin
I've done this a lot, it has worked with every ONVIF capable camera I have tried. It is sometimes a real nightmare to figure out the stream location and video settings though.
supergeek
Additionally, Amcrest sells ONVIF compatible cameras that do have a web UI and can connect to any of those NVRs, or a wide number of ONVIF viewer apps on any device you want. They're a bit more expensive, but still dirt cheap compared to more reputable brands mentioned in this thread.
goodells
For my apartment, I run rtsp-simple-server[1] on my home server and use Raspberry Pis with generic USB webcams running ffmpeg to stream the audio/video to the RTSP server. Then I run camera.ui[2] separately for a nicer interface on top of all the cameras, HomeKit integration, etc.
The only downside hardware-wise is I don't get any indoor IR night vision with these, which some of the nicer "smart home" account-locked ones do.
It's honestly not too bad to set up if you run [1] and [2] in Docker. I've done disaster recovery scenarios of my home infra where I straight up disconnect the modem's uplink and everything works without any issues.
throwanem
> I've done disaster recovery scenarios of my home infra where I straight up disconnect the modem's uplink and everything works without any issues.
As a Comcast customer in a region with no competing provider, I really respect and appreciate their proactive stance toward ensuring all their customers frequently have the opportunity to reaffirm this level of confidence in our local networking infrastructures.
omgwtfbyobbq
Ditto on the Pis. I use zoneminder, but whatever works, works.
I also have a few IR cameras that work ok. The biggest issue is finding decent ir LEDs.
The ones that come with the IR cameras aren't great. I purchased standalone IR LEDs, which are better for reliability and ir illumination.
MarkusWandel
I have my sketchy Chinacams on a "red LAN" that does not have internet access. It only goes to the second ethernet port on the device that does the capture/motion detect; it does not route to the internet or even do DNS resolution.
This was originally done to keep all that traffic off my main LAN, but it has a handy anti-cloud/anti-spyware firewall purpose too. My Chinacams come from an era, though, where all you had to do is uncheck "cloud" in the ridiculous ActiveX required GUI setup, and that was it for them trying to access the internet. Things may have changed; the last of these didn't even let me set a password to get into the GUI before activating through the cloud and that was a few years ago.
Spending extra to get a commercial grade camera is really not that bad if you plan to use the camera for a while.
starky
I'm not going to recommend specific cameras (as I work for a company that sells them), but one tip is to look for industrial cameras with ONVIF certification and them look them up in the conformant cameras database [1]. They have a page for each camera that describes how you can connect to them on the first time.
j_h_o
Bosch, Hanwha, Axis, Ubiquiti/UniFi.
I personally prefer Bosch and Hanwha cameras. Great optics, low light performance and solid firmware. Axis tends to be expensive and low light performance is not as good, for the price. UniFi Protect cameras are decent, but the standalone firmware is rather limited.
I connect these cameras to Frigate[1] locally.
Some example model numbers: Bosch Flexidome IP Starlight 6000 Dome Security Camera - NIN63023A3; Hanwha Techwin XNO-8080R WiseNet X Series Network Bullet Camera 5MP 3.7-9.4mm; AXIS P1468-LE Bullet Camera
I usually find these on eBay.
lsllc
+1 for Ubiquiti/UniFi Protect. Their cameras are pretty decent are PoE and can be managed by a local (or remote via VPN) NVR but can also operate standalone RSTP (and web app) if you don't want to run them with an NVR. You can access the NVR via an app on your phone if you want to "cloud enable it" (but it's just a relay of some sort at no additional/recurring cost I might add).
I know UBNT have had a few missteps recently, but in general I like their kit and am pretty happy with it.
stragies
Thanks, the HomeAssistant integration of frigate.video looks nice!
Do you happen to know a way to use the audio-backchannels of the to broadcast audio out of the cameras? And/or use them as "speakerphone" with SIP/xy? Somehow integrate them with pipewire?
lloydatkinson
This is a very disturbing trend for sure. Given that these new cameras that need accounts sure aren’t showing ads on the feeds either, meanwhile an account being required must be important to the manufacturers in some way.
I can only conclude that they must be selling access to feeds, because even the most incompetent agile product delivery manager type person isn’t going to simply suggest every camera needs an account along with all the extra engineering requirements involved for that for simply no reason - there surely must be a financial motive.
Furthermore what good is the feed if they can’t also sell the associated metadata, such as the account holders details, nearby WiFi access points, the list of devices on the network.
This is yet another angle they can use to try track every aspect of a home including the infamous example of Samsung “analysing” what type of content you’re watching and selling that to ad companies.
OP is probably better off looking at enterprise/industrial manufacturers.
michaelt
> I can only conclude that they must be selling access to feeds, because even the most incompetent agile product delivery manager type person isn’t going to simply suggest every camera needs an account along with all the extra engineering requirements involved for that for simply no reason - there surely must be a financial motive.
Eh, probably they're just targeting users who want to view their CCTV on their phone when away from home, without their camera ending up visible to the whole world.
I mean, if you're selling a retail product to consumers, very few of them know WTF things like ONVIF are.
ramesh31
This is happening with routers, too. Just recently had someone give me a new Netgear Nighthawk for free, and I was stoked until it wanted me to download an app and create an account to manage my network. Straight to the garbage.
perrylaj
Decent consumer hardware, in the future I'd suggest trying out something like OpenWRT rather than binning it.
ramesh31
Yeah I didn't realize they could be flashed with OpenWRT. Might give that shot.
dangus
Were you using the phone app-based installation, or visiting the local network address from a desktop computer?
Most products like this have some kind of "harder way" to set up without an account, while the smartphone way uses an account. For a router usually means that if you want the old-fashioned manual way you need to visit the router's gateway IP and set it up from there.
Sometimes "the smartphone way" even has a way around having to make an account, it's just that it's hard to find or discouraged. E.g., I set up my HP printer without an account or any ink subscriptions (and I even think it's a great printer, shocking, I know).
(I had a Nighthawk device relatively recently and it had no need for an account, but I don't actually know if this has changed recently)
yumraj
Effing Xfinity cable modem wants an app for a couple of things including service activation and such, via bluetooth access. I don't think there's a way around that.
Once that is done you can use the browser for a few things, but for WiFi password and all I think app is still needed. Couldn't find a way to do it other way.
Worst thing is that this stupid Xfinity app eats phone battery like crazy. So I had to disable background activity and bluetooth permissions once I was done with the activation and initial setup.
sliken
The way around that is to use your own cable modem. It's also way cheaper to buy than pay the monthly rental fee.
tapper
Well that was a dumb thing to do! You could of flashed it with OpenWrt and had a dam good router.
drdaeman
> Given that these new cameras that need accounts sure aren’t showing ads on the feeds either
You haven't noticed many of the companion apps for IoT(of Shit) have those "store"/"discover'/"savvy user center" sections where they try their best to get you to buy more of their devices? Plus a barrage of notifications, in-app banners or emails how you're eligible for a "discount" or "promo"?
This - plus online services (re-broadcasting outside of home network, recording storage, face/object/sound recognition and notifications, etc - any software features that can be pay-gated, especially those that can't be done on-device because the device is ultra-cheap) is how they make money.
> I can only conclude that they must be selling access to feeds
I'm skeptical. Who's the buyer and what are they going to do with those feeds to make them useful? And if it's for something remotely legal - how they're going to untaint this data?
This works in cyberpunk novels - cameras sweeping data, AIs detecting that a neighborhood is $brand turf, classifying all the individuals, ..., massive profit! But reality is messier and way less logical than any fiction (and we don't have any AIs yet, while fiction has them abundant and dirt-cheap). Out of curiosity, I've just had a long session with GPT-4 (which is a really uneconomical way to do advertising, but maybe in 5-10 years?), telling it all I see in my room in extreme detail, down to all the scuff marks and pet hairs. It wasn't exactly bad - it managed to realize the obvious (which is much cheaper to deduce from my search and purchase history, huh), but let's say I haven't made any new records on my purchase list.
red-iron-pine
> You haven't noticed many of the companion apps for IoT(of Shit)
coulda just gone with Internet of Turds (IoT)
pc86
I agree that they are very likely selling all this data, but let's not underestimate the incompetence of product people.
yootyootr
Axis cameras is a strong recommendation from me. They make a huge range from tiny "server room" cameras through to spy-agency grade dome-CCTV cameras, industrial, weather proof etc etc.
Their basic range all have a web GUI, RTSP and ethernet/wifi. Have a look at the M11 range, or the M30 for a cheap dome camera.
kramerger
+1 for Axis.
I heard they are the go to brand for any goverment organisation that cares about security and privacy.
neilalexander
UniFi Protect cameras can all be set up in standalone mode by visiting the camera's IP address in a web browser — they will obtain an address from DHCP by default. From there you can set up the RTSP streams which become accessible from the camera IP directly. You do not need to use a UniFi Protect app or console in this configuration.
leesalminen
Not anymore with their latest models. You are required to have a Protect NVR and account before they’ll let you use standalone mode, and, apparently some new models disable it entirely.
Check out the UniFi subreddit for details.
Very disappointed, as that was my go to brand for standalone IP cameras.
sliken
Sadly ubiquiti seems to be going downhill on multiple fronts.
somehnguy
So disappointing. I can finally afford to buy all the Ubiquiti equipment I wanted in the past but no longer want to buy it. I went TP-Link Omada for my APs and have been satisfied.
red-iron-pine
been like that for a while now
unethical_ban
I knew they stopped distributing the video server software (forcing a hardware purchase) but I didn't know they required an account now.
It's just impossible for a business not to screw customers, isn't it?
sgjohnson
You can also get a console and not connect it to the internet for central management.
MegaDeKay
You don't mention your use case but the ESP32-CAM gets you an ESP32-based wifi streaming camera for about $10 USD. No app. No account. Surprisingly powerful.
https://randomnerdtutorials.com/esp32-cam-video-streaming-fa...
deepspace
Have they fixed the stability issues yet? When I last looked at ESP32-CAM a couple of years ago, it was so unstable as to be unusable. Have newer versions of software and/or hardware made an improvement?
MegaDeKay
I don't know. Got one myself a short while ago but have not gotten to trying it out yet. I'd be quite surprised if it hasn't improved over that time though.
mkeedlinger
This is cool, and I have one of these! It's performance can be surprising both ways: somehow I am both underwhelmed and impressed at the same time.
I'm for sure looking for an alternative though.
kbar13
esp32-cam is just ok. the quality of the camera is generally very very low. it also can't do h264 meaning that certain integrations like streaming/recording/detecting motion in apple home will require you to do transcodes on some other hardware (which can get expensive).
ben_w
I'm assuming, given where you're asking, that it would be fine to suggest a DIY option?
If so: on my desk right now is a Raspberry Pi Zero with a NoIR camera, configured so that when it gets power a small Python script starts up as a web server and begins hosting the camera output.
Here's the code for both the server and a webpage to auto-refresh the camera view. MIT license, so have fun:
fabioyy
A little off topic, i don´t know your use case, but you can use an old phone as webcam, they will be better in quality than any IP camera.
A little example using my old galaxy s11. ( its connected to a pc using usb, airplane mode, no internet )
disposition2
Be careful when doing this. If left unchecked this could very easily start a fire. I did this with an old Nexus 5 and it only took a couple of days before I had a spicy pillow.
Although, this probably works well for a device with a removable battery and that can be powered by USB alone.
freedomben
Yes, this is solid advice. If you are going to leave it plugged in all the time, check on the battery regularly to make sure it isn't swelling.
bobbean
Would it be possible to use the phone without a battery?
davchana
Or a timer switch. Christmas lights 6 hours on 18 off power timer switch. Or a smart switch. Also make sure there is no cushy things like pillow or clothes or stuff around phone.
stragies
For this scenario I'd like to buy a device powered by POE, with USB-Eth, some free USB-Ports with PPPC, and some contraption, that goes through a hole in the back of the phone to the battery connector inside.
I had assembled something like that for my old SGS2 alarm clock out of a POE-5V splitter, an USB otg adapter, an Uhubctl-compatible USB-HUB powered by the POE-Splitter, and assorted cabling including a lead to the internal battery terminal with the top bar of an old battery (It contains some electronics). UGLY. Does anybody know a pre-made device like that?
Reubachi
How does this comment come up whenever IP cameras or dash cams are mentioned? You certainly "can use a old phone as a webcam" and it will be "better quality". That's because it's a device designed to view commercial media, text, etc from your hand while mobile, connected to a network 24/7.
As an analogy, you have a 40 year old Ferrari in pristine condition that really doesn't have much work value, but still a fast classic car. also you daily drive a 5 year old cheap truck. if your daily breaks down, would you replace it with your Ferrari which is certainly "faster" and better quality?
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I've been using Amcrest and foscam IP cameras at my home for the past several years. I have then connected to a no internet VLAN with an NVR.
The models I've been using have an ethernet port and wifi. Setup was connecting to the ethernet port and then accessing the web ui in a browser to configure settings (most importantly turning on RTSP or ONVIF feeds). The cameras I have are starting to show their age and a couple of them are starting to fail (PTZ slow or require reboots every few weeks).
I picked up newer models from Amcrest and foscam assuming they would have the same set up procedure (i made sure to get ethernet+wifi models and did research on being RSTP capable) but they all require downloading an app and creating an account to set them up, even if the end configuration is without internet for local video)
The foscam cameras have a web ui that just has links to the app stores and the amcrest cameras don't have any web ui available. I tried directly accessing the RTSP URLs and still no luck. both apps require account creation in order to use.
I've also tried some tp link, wyze and aqara cameras in the past but they all required an app/account. They also had the worst reliability, both in connection stability and physical failure rates.
Does anyone have specific model numbers of currently purchasable (US) IP cameras that genuinely don't require an app and account to set up?