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wmf
There's an exception for batteries that "retain at least 80% of its original capacity after 1,000 charge cycles." Coincidentally, iPhones and probably other flagships already qualify for this exception.
eqvinox
JFTR: achieving that capacity retention is a question of charge settings. Pretty much any Lithium ion battery can achieve it if you don't charge it to the absolute maximum possible each time.
It's quite simple. While you can charge a "good old" Lithium ion battery to 4.2V, you already start getting slow degradation at that point. Charging it to 4.1V or 4.05V massively reduces that. But at the same time, those 100 or 150mV are a notable amount of charge, up to 20%. So… yeah. It's a tradeoff.
For reference: https://nenpower.com/blog/how-does-charging-voltage-impact-t...
https://e2e.ti.com/cfs-file/__key/communityserver-discussion... page 15
in_cahoots
If the bill defines a charge cycle as 100->0->100 then the restriction should be more meaningful right? Manufacturers would have to ship a larger battery and cap its capacity to get the same lifespan.
protimewaster
Last time this was discussed, it was stated that the text exempting based on cycle counts was removed from the final, adopted version. Is that incorrect?
jorams
The batteries regulation[1] doesn't contain such an exemption. The legal argument that iPhones may be exempt goes like this:
- The batteries regulation is a general regulation and article 11 specifically says the following:
> This paragraph shall be without prejudice to any specific provisions ensuring a higher level of protection of the environment and human health relating to the removability and replaceability of portable batteries by end-users laid down in any Union law on electrical and electronic equipment as defined in Article 3(1), point (a), of Directive 2012/19/EU.
- There is a different regulation, the ecodesign regulation for smartphones and tablets[2], that is more specific and therefore might supersede the batteries regulation on this front, which says:
> (ii) manufacturers, importers or authorised representatives may provide the battery or batteries referred to in point (i)(a) only to professional repairers if manufacturers, importers or authorised representatives ensure that the following requirements are met:
> (a) after 500 full charge cycles the battery has, in a fully charged state, a remaining capacity of at least 83 % of the rated capacity;
> (b) the battery endurance in cycles achieves a minimum of 1 000 full charge cycles and after 1 000 full charge cycles the battery has, in a fully charged state, a remaining capacity of at least 80 % of the rated capacity;
> (c) the device meets IP67 rating.
[1]: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CEL...
[2]: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CEL...
arendtio
But what exactly is a charge cycle? I mean, the effect on a battery being loaded from 0% to 100% and drained to 0% again is vastly different from a battery being charged from 40% to 50% and being used until 40% ten times in a row.
motbus3
I can strongly state that it is 100% possible to do ip67 with removable batteries in the sense people general mean.
That said, I am afraid how one can play with the definition of removable. Everything is removable given enough force.
peterlada
This is solid. I like it.
criddell
On the page linked to it mentions the two exceptions that exempt iPhone and other flagship phones - long lifespan (80% after 1000 charges) and waterproof (IP67).
The other exemption criteria is for specialized (medical) devices and devices where a removable battery would be unsafe.
protimewaster
It does, but, in the previous HN discussion, there was a link to the what was reportedly the adopted version of the bill, and those exemptions were gone from the text.
IshKebab
Yeah I found the exception for waterproof devices (which isn't any waterproof devices; arguably phones wouldn't count). But there doesn't appear to be anything about cycle counts:
> To ensure the safety of end-users, this Regulation should provide for a limited derogation for portable batteries from the removability and replaceability requirements set for portable batteries concerning appliances that incorporate portable batteries and that are specifically designed to be used, for the majority of the active service of the appliance, in an environment that is regularly subject to splashing water, water streams or water immersion and that are intended to be washable or rinseable. This derogation should only apply when it is not possible, by way of redesign of the appliance, to ensure the safety of the end-user and the safe continued use of the appliance after the end-user has correctly followed the instructions to remove and replace the battery. Where the derogation applies, the product should be designed in such a way as to make the battery removable and replaceable only by independent professionals, and not by end-users.
foolfoolz
i’m ok with this and an $80 battery replacement in exchange for better waterproofing
ratiolat
IP68, replaceable battery, phone jack, 5G: https://m.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_xcover6_pro-11600.php
badsectoracula
Unfortunately it is from 2022, meaning no OS upgrades.
I think the next mandatory laws EU should pass is that manufacturers should either allow people to upgrade/replace the OS by themselves or provide mandatory upgrades for the next decade (i don't care how the manufacturers handle it, that's up to them, but the easiest way out of such a law is to allow people upgrade/replace the OS by themselves).
Aurornis
And all of the commenters complaining they would never buy this phone is great proof that the removable battery movement is DOA.
These phones exist. Companies have been producing them intermittently. When they do, few people buy them and there are always complaints that it's too big, too ugly, not fast enough, or something else.
The vocal minority demanding this feature but refusing to buy phones with the feature believe they can have their cake and eat it too. They want phones with all the benefits of built-in batteries and none of the downsides of removable batteries.
kaiwn
2 mm thicker and 58 grams heavier than the latest iPhone.
vrighter
galaxy s5 from 2014 also achieved all of this. It was a solved problem literally over a decade ago
asdfasgasdgasdg
I feel like the fact that the phone-with-removal-battery option already exists and is not popular in the market should be a signal to EU politicians about how much the public actually values this capability.
RedShift1
And 4 years old... I wouldn't buy this new
elzbardico
[flagged]
GoToRO
There is not waterproofing, on any phone. Yes, when you buy it, no after 3 years when the glue that waterproofs no longer sticks due to ageing.
chroma
It really depends on the model, manufacturer, & luck. I’ve never had a phone lose its water resistance. The phone I use today (a 13 mini) is almost five years old and I clean it by running it under the faucet.
lightedman
"Yes, when you buy it, no after 3 years when the glue that waterproofs no longer sticks due to ageing."
My 2014 Kyocera Duraforce Pro is STILL waterproof and I use it for underwater photography incessantly.
thatguy0900
I'm kinda surprised with esim, wireless charging and Bluetooth noones just made a phone with a solid layer of glass completely surrounding it for 100% waterproofing
HumblyTossed
The two don't have to be mutually exclusive.
Also, it's water - resistance.
joe_mamba
My low-cost plastic Casio watch based on a very old design is waterproof and battery can be swapped out by undoing 4 philips screws, no glue. Its buttons can also be operated under water while staying waterproof.
What is this whicraft?
kccqzy
I normally much prefer screws over glue but Apple has at least been using repair-friendly glue like the electrically debonding adhesive in use for iPhone 16e/17e.
i_am_jl
An Apple product manager just fainted at the thought of a user taking a screwdriver to an iPhone.
ryandrake
I get it for watches, but I've never understood the mass-market need for a waterproof phone, outside of a few niche hobbies. Are people showering and swimming with their phones or something? Or dropping them in their toilets? The wettest my phone has ever been in 8 years is in my pocket while it's raining.
zahlman
How do they waterproof around the screws?
exe34
technically you're meant to replace the rubber ring around it, but yes, not hard to do.
ok123456
A gasket.
kaiwn
The buttons can’t be operated underwater. You’ve been lucky thus far. Casio asks you not to use the buttons underwater.
https://www.casio-intl.com/asia/en/wat/water_resistance/
> Even if a watch is water-resistant, do not operate its buttons or crown while it is submersed in water or wet.
Pxtl
Timex has been making iron-man watches held together with Philips-head screws that can withstand 100 meters of water pressure since the mid-1980s. Waterproofing is no excuse for this nonsense.
Aurornis
Watch cases are relatively huge for what needs to be inside them. You can see the difference between an entire smartphone and a simple time keeping device, right?
They also don’t have the long aspect ratio of phones (bending moment).
This doesn’t compare to phones at all. It’s like trying to compare your TI-83 calculator to a MacBook Pro
derekerdmann
I once had a cheap Timex watch die from water ingress after running a track workout during a torrential downpour. At the time I joked that it only failed because we ran farther than the 100m rating
thechao
I think the USB & speaker are the weak links for water ingress. Also, a removable battery would (probably?) significantly weaken the phone. So, if you dropped it, it'd be more likely to sustain real damage.
whazor
Still, the majority of the population would get a phone with replaceable battery.
hamdingers
All the top smartphone manufacturers hit that bar, at least for their mid and high end phones. The focus on apple is misleading and weird.
This will only impact bottom barrel phones.
alt227
Exactly. Apple and Samsung phones account for 90% of the market and are exempt fro mthis bill. So just how much ewaste will it prevent?
creaturemachine
Remember ios 10.2.1? Batterygate?
thunfischbrot
In my bubble, some. In the general population? Very very few.
GuB-42
Is there any other details on what it means.
There is a difference between:
- Having a manufacturer promise that the battery will last with little oversight on how testing is done and no specific warranty.
- A lifetime warranty where any battery that gives less than 80% of its rating for 1000 cycles has to be replaced free of charge. With the added obligation that measurements should be user-readable and accurate (no cheating the cycle counter and battery gauge).
Worf
> has to be replaced free of charge
I assume you mean the battery would have to be replaced free of charge. But what if I don't want to hand over a computer full of my personal data to a corporation with no oversight of how it will be handled? What if I can't afford to part with that computer?
I would be stuck with having to replace that battery on my own since I don't want to risk giving physical access to my computer to untrusted parties.
There needs to be a different way to handle this. For example, send me a new battery and the tools needed to replace it, with monetary compensation if certain features would be lost, like waterproofing. Or something else - not sure. But I don't believe in the honor of the people who would service my computer.
eszed
> hand over a computer full of my personal data to a corporation
I'm equally paranoid, so I back up and wipe any device I hand in for repair.
> What if I can't afford to part with that computer?
No perfect answer for this, but I've always kept my last phone in a drawer in case my current phone breaks. It's saved me a couple of times. Maybe not everything works, but basic calls and texts always have, and I can use a browser for banking and other "complicated" stuff for a few days.
I'm OK if the perfect doesn't get in the way of the good - both personally, and in this sort of legislation.
SirMaster
Huh, my iPhones have never come close to this. They are always under 80% capacity before 1000 charge cycles.
jvanderbot
unfortunately, it will be based on _design_ / _rated_ capacity, probably.
undefined
criddell
My iPhone 13 Mini is almost 5 years old and well over 1000 charges and the battery health app reports 81% which I believe.
catlikesshrimp
Watch apple secretly defining 1000 charge cycles as 1500 10%-80% "normal use" days. (Remember the "full charge in 8 minutes fiasco? Well, I searched a reference but I didn't find any :/)
WesolyKubeczek
[dead]
bluescrn
displayedBatteryHealthPercent = max(80, actualBatteryHealthPercent);
(I suspect the health figures displayed are already somewhat fudged to try and downplay the reality of battery degradation?)
josefx
Didn't Apple once ship a patch to limit CPU performance on iPhones because battery degradation was a widespread issue?
wmf
Yes, but batterygate was about degradation of the battery current not capacity. Apple officially acknowledges that battery degradation exists; the only question is whether it's better or worse than 80%.
Aurornis
As others have mentioned this is for phones with batteries that can’t survive a reasonable number of cycles.
That’s a reasonable exemption, in my opinion. I don’t want to pay the extra penalties of reduced structural rigidity and water tightness for a battery that I don’t need to replace for 3-4 years anyway.
I do wish one manufacturer would make a flagship phone with replaceable battery so all of the uncompromising replaceable battery fans could have a phone that fits their niche demands rather than trying to force everyone else to pay the extra costs (price, size, water intrusion, structural rigidity) that would come with laws forcing all phones to have removable batteries.
alt227
> a battery that I don’t need to replace for 3-4 years anyway.
This is not just about battery replacement. I used to keep several fully charged batteries stocked in my rucksack whenever I went hiking or anywhere else that was remote. After a day of taking photos in the wild its nice to be able to just chuck in a fresh batttery and off you go.
I feel like this feature of phones was not only lost, but pretty much forgotten about after smartphones stopped including user replaceable batteries.
elzbardico
External battery banks are a far superior solution now that almost everything has standardized on USB and we have power banks supporting high speed charging.
They can be charged with the same power adapter you use to charge your phone, without the need of an extra docking thing.
They can be used to charge any USB-chargeable device.
They are not tied to your specific model, and thus you're not vendor locked with them, making them cheaper and easier to find anywhere in the world.
They come in multiple capacities, allowing you to plan in advance your energy needs and choose the right size bank for your situation.
They are far more sturdier than any modern battery, which makes them more resistant to puncture and bending.
They don't have external contacts that could potentially short in contact with conductive surfaces.
undefined
manoDev
Lots of advantages, but one major downside: you can't pop the empty battery, put a new one and keep working.
There's a reason professional devices (e.g. cameras) still have replaceable batteries.
Aurornis
> This is not just about battery replacement. I used to keep several fully charged batteries stocked in my rucksack whenever I went hiking or anywhere else that was remote.
There are several high end phones with removable batteries. You should buy one of them if this feature is important to you.
This movement to force everyone's phones to pay the costs of removable batteries to address these really niche use cases is not great.
alt227
> he costs of removable batteries to address these really niche use cases
You seem to have completely missed the primary point of all this, which is to reducew ewaste. That fact that it also satisfies some niche uses cases is a great bonus!
SauntSolaire
Replaceable batteries are one thing, but truly hot swappable batteries like you're asking for will absolutely effect the waterproofing and add a lot of weight/size. Is there a reason you can't just bring a battery pack in your rucksack? They make magnetic ones you can slap on the back and be on your way.
alt227
Continuing to take photos with a battery pack hanging off a device is no where near as simple as popping in a fresh 100% battery and coninuing as normal.
mossTechnician
Many flagship phones promise 7 years of security updates now. 3-4 years means the battery will only last for half that time, and heavy users (1 cycle per day) will hit that quota in under 2.75 years.
Aurornis
The battery doesn't cease functioning after 3-4 years. The benchmark says it should have 80% capacity.
It's also not really that expensive to have phone batteries replaced. Apple will do it for $120 including the battery for their flagship models that cost over $1000. Cheaper for lower end models.
I can't take any arguments seriously that claim these phones are becoming e-waste after 2.75 years. Battery replacement is a common process.
IanCal
Importantly “last” means that it will have at least 80% battery capacity left.
mossTechnician
That must be somewhat significant, because after that percent, Apple will start showing "Your battery’s health is significantly degraded" warnings.
gavinsyancey
Degradation is usually nonlinear.
elzbardico
Then the law should just make sure that there's a second source at least for the batteries, that technicians have free access to disassembly instructions, and that it can be done without undue effort or risk.
Requiring common tools or technical skills for replacing something that last 4 years is not a hassle to justify enshitiffying phones design as long as you're not vendor locked for such replacement, and a technician can do it in a reasonable amount of time, with reasonable tool and without the risk of degrading the functionality of the device doing so.
bigbuppo
I'm old enough to remember the old Nokia phones that had removable cases, removable batteries, and you would have upgrade envy for the last year of your 36 month cell service contract. Then we had wince and early android devices and BlackBerries which were pretty much the same.
Somehow we made it work back then.
mrandish
This regulation isn't primarily for fans of replaceable batteries, it's driven by general concerns about e-waste. It's unclear how much it might actually reduce e-waste in practice but it will certainly increase compliance costs.
detourdog
At least it's a performance standard. If the Government is going to regulate consumer products I would rather it be performance standards than implementation details. If a device doesn't meet performance standards it can trigger warranty requirements.
bigbuppo
> I don’t want to pay the extra penalties of reduced structural rigidity and water tightness for a battery that I don’t need to replace for 3-4 years anyway.
What are you doing to your phone that needs all that? Using it as a hammer? Temporary support while building a tunnel?
undefined
tgsovlerkhgsel
The big question is, what happens when the manufacturer claims it can survive a reasonable number of cycles, then it turns out it can't. By the time this becomes obvious, the phones will be out of warranty.
Will the manufacturer simply be prohibited from selling those phones (which are probably no longer sold by that time anyways), will they be fined a "cost of doing business" level fine, or will customers have an actual remedy (e.g. full refund even after the 2 year warranty period)?
manoDev
> I don’t want to pay the extra penalties of reduced structural rigidity and water tightness for a battery
This is a BS excuse. Lots and lots of gadgets with removable batteries and waterproof design as evidence.
pembrook
> Lots and lots of gadgets with removable batteries and waterproof design as evidence.
And this is a BS rebuttal. None of them achieve the same miniaturization and water tightness as iPhone.
This law is basically government being co-opted by a tiny vocal minority to force their unpopular opinions onto the rest of the public.
If any modest percentage of the market cared about replaceable batteries above all else in their phones, the market would already be packed with removable battery phone options.
manoDev
AFAIK, the primary reason Apple and others started avoiding replaceable batteries was the reputational risk and fire hazard of having customers put fake or damaged batteries, because that was long before they started marketing an IP rating.
And by the way, the "water proofing" is only 30 minutes with pressure equivalent to 6 meters deep, tested with water nozzles. That's not a lot. Other gadgets that employ gaskets or positive pressure achieve more. I'm sure if they can design for the same rating without hurting battery replacement ability.
mort96
Should we not expect phones to last more than 3-4 years? We aren't in the exponential performance growth and requirements part of the smartphone world anymore, a 5-7 year old phone can be a perfectly functional device. Isn't it unfortunate that a perfectly good phone gets turned to e-waste years before it has to, just because a consumable part of it happens to be non-replaceable?
undefined
rootusrootus
> Isn't it unfortunate that a perfectly good phone gets turned to e-waste years before it has to
This does not happen. There is a thriving market for used phones, many of which have had the battery replaced.
waiwai933
I think it may help to clarify that there are two Regulations which seem to have been muddled in the comments:
* Regulation 2023/1670 provides, inter alia, that smartphone manufacturers must make replacement batteries available to consumers, except where the 80%/1000 cycle criteria is met, in which case replacement batteries can be made only available to professional repairers. There is also a requirement for it being able to replace the battery but this does permit use of non-trivial tools under certain circumstances.
* Regulation 2023/1542 provides that portable batteries (not limited to smartphones) must be readily end-user replaceable if they meet certain criteria unless the strict waterproofing/medical industry criteria are met.
dmos62
I've a plan: 2027 I'm buying a Motorola with first-party support for GrapheneOS and a replaceable battery. Things are looking up!
cyklosarin
There is almost zero chance that the Motorola phones will come with a replaceable battery and likely fall under the exemption anyways. The GOS supported phones will all be flagship level devices (i.e. Signature/RAZR).
dddw
Yes! Hope they deliver some decent enough device
throwaway2037
Can I play devil's advocate for a moment? Imagine that Apple decides to protest this new rule. They say: We will stop stelling iPhones in the EU. However, you can buy from non-EU countries (US, Canada, AUS/NZ, UK, etc.), and we will ship to you, or you can use a third party shipper. I know, I know, HN crowd loves to play legal games like this ("this one weird trick...") -- they rarely work in the Real World.
Real legal question: What prevents this "legal hack"?
jillesvangurp
Legal hacks like this could work if you don't care about your market share and using dodgy import constructions. That likely won't fly if you are Apple and selling in the EU through an EU based legal entity for compliance reasons already.
The simple issue is that the EU market is a rather large market that Apple can't really afford to lose a major portion of. Iphones are a good chunk of their revenue and a lot of that is EU customers. Also, most iphone users get their phones via their mobile subscription and don't buy direct from Apple. Those phones would have to comply with local rules.
When the EU says our way or the highway, the highway could be rather costly. As others are suggesting, all Apple needs to do is certify their phones water proof and/or put a slightly better battery in their phones (> 1000 cycles). That sounds like it should be doable for them.
They'll probably emphasize their awesome new batteries and water proofing of their devices in the usual announcements later this year and that will be it. Expect that to be something you hear a lot about in phone announcements from other manufacturers in the next half year. And maybe some vendors will actually do the other thing, which would be implement actually easy to swap batteries. It might a good way to differentiate in the market. And lots of Android phone makers struggle with that right now.
isodev
This is not possible. Any product sold in the EU, regardless of where it is shipped from, must comply with EU rules and standards (e.g., safety, environmental, digital market rules…). Customs can and do block non-compliant imports.
If Apple wants to keep any of their other services and products, they will also be subject to consumer protection regulation meaning they can’t geoblock consumers and they have to ensure their unsafe products don’t end up with EU citizens.
LaffertyDev
> Customs can and do block non-compliant imports.
Software people (generally) have a limited idea of just how complex and rigid customs enforcement can be. Moving physical product between countries is actually a very hard problem.
654wak654
Possible EU tariffs on electronics could have some effect.
IMO Nothing legal would need to be done. I think practical reasons like shipping time, shipping cost, and the annoyance of using a phone from one region with telecoms in another region would drastically reduce sales. Also you're not going to get 1st party support and that effects Apple devices more than others.
pona-a
Loosing their #2 market instead of absorbing a modest compliance cost?
thewavelength
I just called the shop to replace the perfectly fine e-Call battery in my soon four year old Hyundai car. 250€ to change a battery that has a ten year lifespan. I am not allowed to replace it on my own as it would invalidate the five year long guarantee provided by the manufacturer (not the one by law). Why is this stuff not considered as well?
Also curious whether the "specialized devices" exemptions are AND requirements. Even if those are AND, wouldn’t smartphone manufacturers try to satisfy all three of them?
jorams
> I am not allowed to replace it on my own as it would invalidate the five year long guarantee provided by the manufacturer. Why is this stuff not considered as well?
They're the ones paying for repairs, so it doesn't seem that unreasonable? That said: If you can prove the car is being maintained according to the manufacturer's specifications they can't require you to go to a brand dealership. That's just not necessarily easy to prove.
tgsovlerkhgsel
Why are you replacing it if it is perfectly fine?
_diyar
Rule does not apply to gadgets that already retain 80% charge capacity at 1k charge cycles.
What is the share of the smartphone market that this applies to?
xp84
You can bet it will be measured in such a way that the major companies’ devices will qualify. And that it will have little bearing on the retained charge amount you’ll have in real life use. I’m at 82% and 714 cycles. But it’s a joke to suggest that all cycles are equal. Some people never go outside the 20-80 band, others charge to 100% and keep it there all day, then burn it down to 10%. Both of those generate “cycles” but are very far apart.
cuu508
Do we know if and how cycles are defined in the regulation?
mpalczewski
My iphone 15 pro max. manufactured in Aug 2023. 536 cycles. is at 84%. I doubt it will make it to 1k at above 80%.
xp84
We have similar phones. I’m now at 82% at 714 cycles. In real life, our devices wouldn’t qualify but I’m sure Apple will be allowed to write the testing methodology in a way that’ll be nice and gentle.
gyomu
Huh interesting datapoint. I just checked on mine, also August 2023 15PM, and 86% @ 707 cycles here. I’m pretty careless with charging it whenever is convenient/letting it drain to 0% while traveling/etc as well.
msh
My 15 pro max is at 649 cycles and 91%
detourdog
My iPhone 14 Pro is at 88% but I have no charging cycle count.
kjkjadksj
100% probably.
hedora
0%.
Wait, that’s not true: In true regulatory capture fashion, I’ll bet the exemption requires some sort of testing/certification that makes it significantly more expensive for smaller firms to bring devices to market.
seszett
> I’ll bet the exemption requires some sort of testing/certification that makes it significantly more expensive for smaller firms to bring devices to market.
Maybe that would be the case in the US but since that is the EU it will likely be some kind of self-certification where the manufacturer swears that they're not lying, and if enough people complain then maybe one of the national regulators will look into it and ask the manufacturer to do better.
reaperducer
Recently my 2021 macBook gave me an alert that its battery was not charging past 80%. I took it to the Apple Store and because it had only been through 971 charge cycles, the battery was replaced for free.
rootusrootus
I'm still waiting for 2023 MBP to hit that point. It's at 82% right now, with 67 cycles. It's been stuck at 82% for a few months now, though, stubbornly staying in the "normal" range.
dgellow
Might be a good idea to verify before sharing misinformation
yason
In principle, this is the kind of right sentiment but for the wrong things.
I can't remember a phone that died because of the battery since the era of Ni-Cd cells in early cell phones. I don't think I've never discarded a phone with a li-ion battery because of the battery. It's always physical breakage or getting too slow to be usable, because of age.
Sure, I don't spend a cycle per day. Not even every other day. That's probably rare, I get that. But much rather than because of dying batteries I'd like EU to mandate
- the phone should come with full keys so that I can own the machine if I want to - or at the very least the hardware must become unlockable once the support period ends - individual components should be made available for independent repairs - repairs must not need software pairing of hardware components on unlocked devices
because of right to own and right to repair which shouldn't be "rights" but nonnegotiable traits of physical properties like they used to be.
dml2135
> getting too slow to be usable
Not sure what the behavior is like on Android, but iOS will throttle performance if your battery has degraded past a certain state. So I'm sure that there are many iPhone users that are replacing their phone due to what they think is poor performance related to the age of the phone, when it's really due to the age of the battery.
boxed
I think the iPhone will warn you if your battery performance is significantly degraded?
dml2135
It's buried in the battery settings, so not something you will find unless you are looking for it, IIRC.
inquirerGeneral
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bobro
I’ve definitely replaced iphones because the battery wasn’t holding a charge. My understanding is that this is a pretty common issue, no?
rootusrootus
That is your choice, however. Plenty of people choose to pay for a new battery rather than drop hundreds of dollars on a new phone. Apple still offers battery service for $69 for the iPhone 6, a phone released 12 years ago. You could have a new battery put in it today and then go a few more years. Nobody is forcing you to buy a whole new phone.
everdrive
The number of people worried about a slightly thicker phone are absolutely baffling to me. I honestly think there is no hope for us broadly. Normally I'd say that people cannot deal with minor inconveniences -- but this does not even register as an inconvenience.
From my view, this is a _perceived_ downgrade in luxury status. Not even a real downgrade in luxury status -- and not a downgrade in convenience whatsoever.
retired
A slightly thicker back so that in four years time it will take me 5 minutes versus 60 minutes to change the battery? Yes, that sounds like something I am not interested in.
nine_k
I'd like a thicker, smaller phone (like 5") which can actually be operated with one hand. Ideally it should also be durable enough to not need a protective cover.
(My Kyocera Duraforce came close; too bad it was locked to AT&T.)
SauntSolaire
I would also consider swapping a battery once every four years a minor inconvenience.
JumpCrisscross
> this does not even register as an inconvenience
You don’t have any idiosyncratic product preferences?
HumblyTossed
How tf did phones even become a "luxury" status symbol? They're just portable computers that also happen to be covered in nasty germs. People are freaking weird.
nine_k
Anything can become a status symbol; humans love showing off. An expensive high-tech piece that's thinnest in the world? Yes please. Shoes or neckties seem to be even less probable status symbols, but.
MattGaiser
Because the reason for it is not valued by most of us. I do not care about a removable battery. I do not care. I value it at zero. So yes, I do not want to be inconvenienced for something I value at zero.
dec0dedab0de
I want my phone 5 times thicker, just put as many batteries as you can fit in there.
undefined
Fraterkes
Not perfect, but the “80% capacity after 1000 cycles” part at least creates some decent incentives imo.
inagiledev
I tend to find these days that OS version obsolescence and charge port damage happen far sooner than the battery losing significant capacity
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