Talking to strangers at the gym

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mtlynch

One of the things I like about this is that OP is giving people genuine compliments without any particular agenda.

It reminds me of one of my favorite parts of How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie, where he tells a story about complimenting someone, and a student asks what he was hoping to gain from offering the compliment. Carnegie is incensed:

> I was waiting in line to register a letter in the Post Office at Thirty-Third Street and Eighth Avenue in New York. I noticed that the registry clerk was bored with his job[...] So while he was weighing my envelope, I remarked with enthusiasm: “I certainly wish I had your head of hair.”

> He looked up, half-startled, his face beaming with smiles. “Well, it isn’t as good as it used to be,” he said modestly. I assured him that although it might have lost some of its pristine glory, nevertheless it was still magnificent. He was immensely pleased. We carried on a pleasant little conversation, and the last thing he said to me was: “Many people have admired my hair.”

> I told this story once in public; and a man asked me afterwards: “What did you want to get out of him?”

> What was I trying to get out of him!!! What was I trying to get out of him!!!

> If we are so contemptibly selfish that we can’t radiate a little happiness and pass on a bit of honest appreciation without trying to screw something out of the other person in return—if our souls are no bigger than sour crab apples, we shall meet with the failure we so richly deserve.

> Oh yes, I did want something out of that chap. I wanted something priceless. And I got it. I got the feeling that I had done something for him without his being able to do anything whatever in return for me. That is a feeling that glows and sings in your memory long after the incident is passed.

alexmuresan

I avoided this book for a long time. for some reason I got it in my head that it's a sort of red pilled book that teaches you how to manipulate people. I know it's very shallow on my side, but I somehow crystallized this opinion based on a few acquaintances that claimed to read it and instead that they include the name of a person they just met in every sentence because it made that person like them more.

Your comment made me consider reading it. This rant about radiating happiness towards people without expecting something in return gives me a different insight on his reasons for writing the book.

I might give it a shot. Thank you

nozzlegear

> I avoided this book for a long time. for some reason I got it in my head that it's a sort of red pilled book that teaches you how to manipulate people.

FWIW this book came out in the 1930s, long before "red pilling" was a thing. I've read it before and it's not about manipulating people unless you consider being a genuinely sincere person to be manipulative in some way. It's a good book, if a little outdated, and, if I could summarize it in one glib sentence, its lesson is "If you want people to like you, then be nice to them, be genuine, and show enthusiasm and interest in what they show enthusiasm and interest in."

dweekly

My read on the book was "humans are really good at telling if you genuinely care about them or not and will respond well to that, so you should genuinely care about the people around you, and good things will result from that overall, especially if you're not super mercenary about it."

Bill & Ted said it most pithily: be excellent to each other.

et-al

I agree with you this was not Dale Carnegie's intent when he wrote the book, but alexmuresan probably takes issue because the "red pilling" crowd have used Carnegie's advice to manipulate people.

Personally, salespeople have randomly complimented me and repeated my name over and over, and on the receiving end it weirded me out. So the problem is that in certain situations there is an overarching "what did you want to get out of that person?". Don't be those people.

Strike up conversations because you enjoy people and their stories.

salynchnew

If Books Could Kill (which is notoriously against self-help books) did an episode on Dale Carnegie.

Even they said that he seemed to be a pretty alright guy who was genuinely nice to people in his personal life, not just in his public persona.

salad-tycoon

I read it as a socially awkward but very bookish very young teen. My one quote summary is “you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.” I never became Mr. Popular but found it very helpful in trying to understand somethings that were unobtainable for me at the time.

I need to read it again, I think about it a few handful of times a year, many years later.

ericmcer

A woman who I used to talk to when I worked at a grocery store said something similar to me: "People will forget what was said but they never forget how they feel".

We do get caught up in like "I shouldn't have said x or y" when the reality is if you make other people feel nice they will want to have you around. If you say the perfect words but overall make them feel bad they won't want you around.

planet36

And "Remember their name".

morganw

> FWIW this book came out in the 1930s, long before "red pilling" was a thing.

but long after The Prince was a thing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prince

axus

Mr. Carnegie should update his book with a few sentences about how using LLMs to flatter people is not being genuine.

TheAtomic

My father gave me this book when I was 12 or 13. It unlocked everything, sort of permission for my teen self to put himself out there. Years later, I've made friends all over the world, some have been in my life for more than 3 decades now, and I continue to make new ones basically by initiating a lot of conversations. I look for something to naturally lean into to start with. For example, I saw a guy in the coffee place with his work badge on so I asked, "coming or going [to work]." Kicked off a 30 min conversation about the economy (he worked at a pawn shop as it turns out and knew a lot about gold, regional poverty, etc). Saw him a couple days later and we picked right back up. The other thing I do is keep it soft focused on them, 100%, until they ask me about me. Nothing kills a conversation faster than someone with a conversational agenda, ie, an go-to opinion. Anyway, I wish more people would start random conversations - it really helps build community.

silisili

> The other thing I do is keep it soft focused on them, 100%, until they ask me about me.

This is the big one. People like to talk about themselves, and often use others' stories to segue it into something about themselves.

I realized at some point if you can avoid doing that, and instead commit yourself to investing in a person's story - ask questions, make comments, etc, they'll think the world of you and often won't even realize why.

sebastiennight

Would you say the reading level of the book is easy enough for a young kid? Did you struggle at all in reading it?

matwood

I was given this book as a shy kid. I've read it multiple times. It really should be titled, "How To be a Decent Human". Show genuine interest in everyone you come across, and everyone's day ends up much better. I'm still bad at remembering names no matter how many tricks I use, but I'm really good at remembering other people's stories and interests. I also learned that so many people have amazing stories to share, and are just waiting for someone to ask.

If being friendly with people is manipulation then I don't really know what to say. I'm more likely to help someone if they are not being a jerk and vice versa.

1718627440

> [The book "How to find friends" should actually be called "How To be a Decent Human"]

Well, that's basically the point.

codelikeawolf

I was in the same boat for a while, but I gave it a shot several years ago when I was doing a lot of driving every day and was powering through audiobooks. This might sound a little hyperbolic, but it actually ended up changing my life in a lot of little positive ways. For example, I used to work with a guy that got made fun of for some of his interests (nothing harsh or super hurtful, just poking fun). I was always really supportive of what he was into and asked questions about it. I wasn't trying to get anything out of it, I just remembered the book and thought it's nice to be nice. When he got married about a year into us working together, I was the only one from our job that he invited to his wedding.

> This rant about radiating happiness towards people without expecting something in return...

This was one of my main takeaways from the book. I would argue that you do get some things in return: richer relationships with the people you already know, pleasant encounters with people you may not know well, and increased enthusiasm for your own interests compounded by hearing someone else explain how enthusiastic they are about their interests.

windowshopping

I was in the same boat as you before I heard enough good things about it that I checked it out. After all, if it was really bad, I would be able to tell as much and stop reading it, nothing lost.

I can confirm it's really good. It's not manipulative at all. The book can large be summed up as "if you want other people to care about you and your desires, you need to care about them and theirs and SHOW them that this is the case: here's how."

hlynurd

> "if you want other people to care about you and your desires, you need to care about them and theirs and SHOW them that this is the case: here's how."

Isn't this highly manipulative?

mtlynch

Oh, I'm glad!

Yeah, I don't think you'll find it a red-pill kind of book at all. I know what you mean about books like The 48 Laws of Power feeling like the world is 100% zero sum, so everything is about dominating or outplaying people.

How to Win Friends and Influence People is very much focused on win-win. There is an agenda to make friends and influence people, as you'd guess from the title, but the strategies are about taking a genuine interest in people and making them feel good.

It's almost 100 years old, so the style is kind of hokey, and only about half the advice resonated with me, but there are 3-4 lessons that had a major impact on me.

SoftTalker

I think it's quite clearly the second part of the title. If it was just "How to Win Friends" it might be something more people don't dismiss just based on the title.

"... and Influence People" makes it sound like that's the purpose of befriending someone, i.e. getting them to do what you want, or to do something for you.

inanutshellus

I'm 100% with the GP - I've avoided reading the book due to the manipulative sound to the title... Ironically I have read The 48 Laws of Power, hah.

I read it though thinking "I'll bulwark myself against manipulators by understanding their tactics" whilst the "Influencing People" book just sounded like manipulative self-interest.

You've changed my mind; I'm going to read it right away.

chasd00

If Books Could Kill did an episode on How to Win Friends and Influence People, it's an interesting listen. iirc the book was written by someone documenting what they learned while breaking into high society or some other class they were not a part of. So it's not so much about manipulating people but more about stroking egos and being as agreeable as possible to avoid any conflict. The podcasters make the point that it was written in the 30s when confrontation, being an individual, and sticking up for one's beliefs wasn't really possible while climbing the social ladder.

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/how-to-win-friends-and...

ihuman

Non-apple podcast link (including transcript): https://www.buzzsprout.com/2040953/episodes/17943742

komali2

Huh, having read the book and about Dale Carnegie, I completely disagree with that take. There's plenty of stories where he does the opposite of avoiding conflict and faces it straight on - such as when he just ignores a cop's random order for him to keep his dog on a leash at the park.

Hnrobert42

I avoided the book after reading it high school and thinking along the same lines. I looked at the suggestions cynically.

A college program required I re-read it. That time, I read it as genuine suggestions of good faith actions. In that light, it was fantastic. Almost 30 years later, I still quote from it.

Your admirable openness to reconsideration reminds me of, "I could be wrong. I often am. Let's examine the facts."

Aurornis

> without any particular agenda.

This is a very important part of learning how to have real conversations with people.

There is too much bad advice about using tricks or hacks to try to start friendly conversations with people. It’s refreshing to see someone learning that a key to healthy conversation is having selfless motives.

Something surprising about How to Win Friends and Influence People is that it’s not as manipulative as the title suggests. A key theme of the book is that you need to be genuine in your interactions. You can’t pretend to be interested in what other people say, you have to actually approach the conversation with interest.

People will see through hidden agendas and ulterior motives. The bad social advice tries to use too many tricks and hacks to formulate a set of interactions that sound good when you’re reading about them but have the wrong effect when you go into the world and interact with other people with a hidden agenda.

This is why I caution against all of the conversation hacks that are recommended, like coming up with excuses to ask someone for a favor (that you don’t really need) as a way to get them into a conversation or pretending to be interested in their life story when you’re only interested in getting someone to talk to you. Others will recognize when there are hidden agendas. It doesn’t set you up for success.

senkora

I once heard "creepiness" defined as "becoming invested in advance in a particular outcome to a social interaction".

In that sense, trying tricks in order to have a "successful conversation" will always fail so long as you are emotionally invested in advance in the conversation being "successful".

It's far better to be genuine and accept that you have only so much control over how things will go.

asdfman123

It's ok to sort of passively want things, everyone does, but the real problem is when you try to try to subtly force an outcome that isn't natural. That's when people get uncomfortable.

If a stranger is light and friendly and asks to hang out, no problem. If they start getting subtly frustrated about your response, your spider sense goes off.

suzzer99

I always try to compliment people if I see they're taking a lot of pride in their work or something they're doing. I was at a conference where the staff each had a coffee/tea/sweets station to maintain. I noticed one woman cleaning and polishing and being super fastidious. I wanted to compliment her, but then I debated with myself if that would be patronizing somehow. Finally, I decided to tell her she had a very nice station, and she just beamed ear-to-ear in response.

m3047

Find the Leary Wheel somewhere. People have referred to the Hypernormal / Overconventional slices as the "Dale Carnegie Quadrant".

Oh nevermind. Let's see what this attracts: http://athena.m3047.net/pub/fwm/leary-wheel.png

dktoao

Since everyone else is sharing their experiences with this book here is mine:

Reading this books was a huge turning point for me as someone with diagnosed mild Autism. I think a lot of the things in this books are fairly obvious to non neuro-divergent folks. But for me, it was like a manual on how to handle myself in social situations, a thing that was mysterious and frustrating to me before. I wouldn't say I am now some sort of socialite, but I am far from the days of being being excluded from basically every social group I attempted to be part of.

nico

That book is very good. However, for some (including me at some point), it can be a bit advanced

I highly recommend the book The Charisma Myth, it covers a lot of the same topics, including very good exercises, to help understand and develop human interactions in general

Personally, it helped me be able to get into, the situations that the first book assumes the reader is already in, or comfortable with (like talking to strangers)

pjmlp

This seems to be a cultural problem to me.

There are societies where talking to strangers all over the place is normal, without any hidden agenda.

Or even dancing with random people at the club, many times never to be seen again. Just to give a more intim kind of example.

While in other cultures, seems that unless there is something to gain from the effort, people don't even try.

ap99

Ok yes, pushing positivity into the universe is better than pushing nothing or negativity.

But there are people who will flatter purely for gain. I think being aware of which is which is very useful.

Also who is giving the compliment will factor into how I receive it.

talkingtab

I have found three strange and unexpected avenues for interacting with people.

1. Be on a quest. Yes a quest. I was trying to buy an old metal key as a gift for a friend. I wanted to find someone who sold sheep's milk (for making cheese). If you are on a quest it gives a context for an interaction. You both have something to talk about and it you both have an out: the answer. People almost always help you with a quest. And this ties with #2

2. Need help. I am lost. I am trying to get to the airport and I don't have much money. I trying to find a good book store. My car won't start. etc. I don't speak English.

3. Humor. Not telling jokes, just have a sense of humor about yourself, your common situation, the world in general.

I especially like being on a quest. Once I asked someone about the key, they sent me another place, they sent me another place and finally I found one. It was a blast. Everyone was helpful. I ended up telling people how I got there, why I was searching etc.

mindstorms6

> 1. Be on a quest. Yes a quest.

This is unbelievably true.

I did a scavenger hunt (challenge hunt?) in Seattle (hosted by a friend of a friend). Many of the challenges involved interacting with other humans (dance with a stranger, buy someone you don't know a shot, give someone you don't know a rose, etc)

It was so fun. I've never met so many people before. But it struck me how excited everyone was to help out on my quest. Eager, even. I was so nervous to talk to people, but suddenly, having a sheet of paper gave me super powers.

Highly recommend having a quest. People love a quest.

skizm

NYC was the complete opposite. Our company did a scavenger hunt and people were so annoyed at us for interacting with them when they realized we needed more than just directions. If others overheard they’d start edging away or making themselves busy. I’ll be totally honest, I’m the same way, which is why I fit in here I guess lol.

121789

ha we did the same thing but had the opposite experience. lots of people willing to help

hellojimbo

in the past, you genuinely needed other people all the time which made this so much easier

SchemaLoad

I've seen this a lot with travel youtubers where they want to show genuine interaction with the population rather than generic tourist stuff. So they set arbitrary restrictions like not using maps, or avoiding PT and trying to hitchhike to destinations. Pretty much everyone everywhere is willing to help how they can and have a conversation in the meantime.

Having some obvious goal like "I'm a tourist and I'm lost" immediately cuts past the "Is this person a scammer/beggar?" you normally think when a stranger walks up to you.

dasyud

This reminded me of Ludwig and Michael's recent travels in China where they weren't using any maps or translators. It was a very fun watch.

gambiting

There's a video on YT that basically proposes the idea that Ewan McGregor's & Charlie Boorman's "Long Way Round" series has been the last "true" travel documentary made for TV. I thought that was a bit silly initially, but after watching it(the YT video) I can't shake the feeling that I agree with the premise.

Basically - in "Long Way Round" Ewan and Charlie take two motorcycles and they ride them from the UK east, going through Russia and finishing in the States. But even though they have support crew of two cars following them with extra equipment, it doesn't change the fact that back when it was filmed, they didn't have internet connected phones with them. The maps of Syberia were innacurate, they didn't speak any Russian, they were driving through really difficult terrain and you could "feel" that they were far from civilization - contact with family was infrequent,they relied on kindness of strangers a lot because there was no other way to continue. There was a lot of communicating with hand signs and pointing.

Compare that to their later "Long way up" where they rode up through South America - at that point they both had mobile phones with maps and instant translators - they were never lost, and even in the middle of absolute nowhere they would walk up to a local and just use their phone to translate. They had video calls with their families practically every night. Even though they were in some places no less remote than Syberian roads, it didn't feel remote in the same way.

And yes, I know there are YT travellers who try to artificially follow the same kind of philosophy - no translators, no maps, just going in raw so to speak. But the world has changed. Even if they don't use phones, the locals do even in the middle of the amazonian jungle. And it is amazing how connected humanity is, but there is certainly an era that has ended for all of us.

I really recommend this video, whether you have seen Charlie's and Ewan's adventures or not:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjV3tkrCYIY

Falimonda

"trying to get to the airport and I don't have much money" is not the quest you want to be faking...

talkingtab

Absolutely true! Perhaps the thing I was trying to say is do not travel or live your life in a bubble. Do not be a tourist in life, get in there. Be safe, but take survivable risk. And yes be honest. I would remove this line from the post, but on the other hand your reply adds a good guide post!

llbeansandrice

I read something a while ago that talked about this. Friendships are solidified mostly by asking for help. It shows the other person that you trust them and people are often honored that you would do so. Even if the request is small.

So being on a quest is a great approach! You often need help and are in a discovery phase where you need to interact with people. Even if the interactions don’t go anywhere most of the time.

Fuzzwah

You've so perfectly explained something that I picked up from my father. He always seemed to have a way to get special treatment from people. I always explained it in a very Australian way; "he's a bit of a character" and figured it was tied to his gift of "telling a yarn".

But reflecting on it now, it's because he was always on a quest.

negura

there's a famous quote- two things you must not look for: love and death; they will find you when the time comes. so basically just do genuine stuff and it will happen. OP also hints at it when they say it's about doing your hobbies with other people. it's the same with the quest stuff imo. OTOH the PUA-types have the wrong approach because it's the opposite to this. they turn relationships into a goal and look for artificial tricks to make it happen

mlmonkey

In my travels, I've found old grandmas as the best people to interact with. In most cultures, those poor old ladies are mostly ignored anyways, so they're always happy to talk to you even if they don't speak your language. Of course they can spot fake a mile away, so be genuine. I was traveling in Italy and had a blast "chatting" with grannies on the streets. Same in Armenia. And Belgium.

dasyud

I've been talking to so many grandmas these days, and it's mostly them approaching me. It's usually something sweet and makes my day, but sometimes, it's heartbreaking to hear the troubles they've been dealing with alone because there's no family to rely on.

I think talking to the elderly is a great way to learn how society has shaped people's lives over many decades.

gib444

Hah, yes, this! I will absolutely accept their flirting and let them call me a "handsome young man" in return too hah

jdthedisciple

Unfortunately, Internet + Smartphones have invalidated 2.

"Why don't you just google it yourself?"

nasir

Around 15 years ago I took on the challenge to start a conversation with random people to break through this barrier and train this muscle. What I started with was to chit chat with those I had already established an interaction. For example at the Starbucks I would say something to barista. Those interactions were short but broke the ice.

Later I went for random people in the street and that was quite awkward. There was simply not much I could work with (what I thought at the time).

This turned out to become a low stake effort to improve my social anxiety. Helped me build humour around it and eventually become comfortable

Fast forward to today, I can literally talk about anything to anyone. The main pattern I follow is to break the pattern and make a joke, be sarcastic respectfully or give a compliment. No permission just something they don't expect. Almost works all the time. It helps with confidence and also makes you realise its all in your head.

And it is fun indeed

JSR_FDED

This is such good advice! The expectation at Starbucks is that the exchange with the barista is super short anyway so you really can’t go wrong. Instead of saying “I’ll have the Danish”, try to turn it into a two-sentence exchange initially (eventually you shoot for a 3 sentence exchange with any stranger you interact with), say “which do you think is better, the danish or the croissant”?

For anyone that asks how you are doing, answer honestly! Or with something slightly unexpected or easy for the other person to engage with or laugh at.

“Hi, How are you?”

“Well I woke up this morning and stepped on my dog’s tail by accident. He was not happy with me, but we’re all good now - how about you?”

tines

The issue for me is that I seem to really "page out" parts of my life that aren't relevant to the situation I'm in. If I were to sincerely answer the "how are you" question, I would have to pause for ten or twenty seconds to think about how I am, which obviously doesn't fit the interaction. Any tips on how to avoid this? I'm a chronic over-preparer and I've tried to equip myself with answers to every conceivable question and that's just exhausting, so I've wanted to avoid that.

Anthony-G

Great advice but that may not always work in Ireland. The expected answer is “grand” or something similarly neutral and succinct. The asker may not even stop to listen to your answer so you won’t have enough time to provide a decent response.

Your suggestion would work when both people are in the same place for some time, e.g., waiting in line for a coffee, or for a meeting to start or for a lift (elevator) to arrive, etc.

I sometimes go to concerts by myself and like to arrive early to catch the support act. There’s usually a gap of at least half an hour before the main act comes on stage and I make a point of looking around for other people who aren’t on their phone so I can start a conversation. In that situation, I already know we have something in common.

wordpressed

I'm not saying this is you, but i've also ran into a lot of those people, almost always men, often in their late 30s or 40s, going around talking to everyone cracking jokes and thinking they're the live of the party, while everyone else is just silently annoyed by them.

hnlmorg

That’s a depressingly negative way to view people who are just trying to break the isolation of modern life.

djeastm

It is possible to treat someone as worthy of sympathy and still be annoyed.

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noisy_boy

> while everyone else is just silently annoyed by them

And you know what everyone else is feeling how?

simmerup

Appreciate this question. For a moment I was almost infected by the commenters miserly attitude

brailsafe

I think this is a particular character in a particular context you're thinking about, but—aside from overtly bombastic loud people—if he can't tell that people are annoyed, how can you?

> thinking they're the live of the party, while everyone else is just silently annoyed by them.

Not saying this is you, but my impression is that people who lean into silent annoyance also depend on passive aggression, fueling it with resentment that they aren't as outgoing (or whatever) and deserve the attention instead, and those who are especially anxious and/or neurotic imagine that everyone else shares the apparent negative feelings, effectively acting as they imagine everyone else wants them to act. People have a hard time letting themselves just vibe and roll with it if they think it might make them less appealing by association. Maybe they are the life of the party, since it's not much of one if people can't pump some life into it

Roark66

While it is possible to overdo everything and being "too jolly" can come across as insincere, despite being raised in a culture where almost no one talks to strangers I was never annoyed by this. Not even once.

I don't doubt people that are, exist, but I highly doubt it's a high percentage and certainly very far from "everyone else".

asdfman123

It's always a matter of finding the happy medium. Don't be completely drab, don't be goofy, be balanced.

twic

Intelligence is knowing how to talk to anyone. Wisdom is knowing not to.

Night_Thastus

Humans are social creatures. We need socialization. It also helps keep us sharp mentally.

You also never know what you might experience from talking to someone. You may make a life-long friend. Or learn about something you didn't know.

It doesn't mean blab about things you shouldn't, being insensitive, etc - but isolation is not the answer.

elzbardico

On the other side, I've seen people that get anoyed with someone trying to have a good time and start subtly using their group influence to sour people against that poor sap.

It is like a crabs in bucket mentality mixed with in-group machiavellian politics.

rootusrootus

> almost always men

That detail is probably unnecessary.

asdfman123

> The main pattern I follow is to break the pattern and make a joke, be sarcastic respectfully or give a compliment

I'm having to learn this about online dating too. My online dates traditionally don't go anywhere because typically they've been about just exchanging information, which is frankly boring to both parties.

You have to (gently) riff and tease a bit or it's not going to go anywhere. If you're talking about your jobs, nothing is going to happen. Establishing that rapport is everything.

pton_xd

> If you're talking about your jobs, nothing is going to happen.

That reminds me of when I first moved out of California and away from the tech scene after being immersed in it for some 10-odd years. People just don't talk about their jobs! They'd much rather talk about their interests, hobbies, friends and family, ... literally anything else. Their job is just not an important part of their identity. Was quite the change in perspective and honestly and took some getting used to.

Chris2048

Depends what your job is.

plewd

> There was simply not much I could work with (what I thought at the time).

This has been my big blocker keeping me from talking to most people. I feel quite adept socially once I get going, but I can usually only get to that point through mutual interests or a solid conversation topic to kick off from.

I seem to usually psyche myself out because most starters feels too fake or unsubstantive. Compliments make sense, but could you elaborate on "break the pattern and make a joke, be sarcastic respectfully"?

toast0

I'll share my secret. Rather than trying to initiate a conversation with others, make it easy to initiate a conversation with you.

I started wearing hats outdoors to keep the sun off my balding head (I've had a sunburn up there, and I don't want another one), and the hat I had around to wear was from when I went as Ash Ketchum for Halloween. Or even just looking at my hat and smiling...

Nearly everywhere I go with that hat, I'll get someone saying nice hat, or professing their love for Pokemon, or asking me if I've caught them all.

This provides an opportunity for conversation and a shared interest. I can ask them if they're into the show, the books, the card game, the video games. How did they get started? What Pokemon is their favorite? Who's the best trainer? When did they start liking Jesse and James? Do they like old stuff or new stuff (I've got the OG hat from season 1).

It takes almost no effort to wear a hat and it helps me use my social skills when I'm out and about. And keeps the sun off my face a bit, and is handy for napping at conventions. You don't have to be Ash Ketchum, any character hat will do.

Also, bonus secret. When I'm sleep deprived, I get chatty... You may or may not, but if you do, use it for practice when it happens... and if you say something embarassing, you can always blame the lack of sleep. I was just at First Robotics worlds and the setup is harsh for sleep hygiene, but I had a ton of nice conversations with random robot people. Shared interest, opportunities and sleep deprivation combined. Otoh, much fewer notices of my hat at the convention center than I expected.

nasir

Even though typing them out may make them stupid but here are a few examples thinking out loud. Remember the body language is quite important and as you do more you start feeling more comfortable in your skin.

- Waiting for an elevator that never comes with two strangers. What I may say: I guess we'd be camping here tonight. Do you have your tent with you?

- Embarrassing moment: I hit my head lightly to something in front of 5 people: Act funny saying Oh can someone call an ambulance.

- Someone dropping yogurt from their spoon on their shirt and locking eye to eye with me realising I've been watching the moment: I would have an empathetic look and then act with an imaginary spoon picking from my own shirt and eating it.

Basically the kind of mild jokes/acts you would do and say to close people would work on strangers as well

hn111

Even written these jokes made me smile, you’re a natural!

busymom0

Your examples remind me of something I'd see Mr Bean do haha

a3c9

I was in a similar boat, but recently started getting through that barrier. The thing that clicked for me is pretty simple: I was filtering myself and chipping away at that filter made a huge difference.

For example, I was in the elevator with a neighbour and they were carrying a lot of mugs. I said "that's a lot of mugs" and we ended up having a quick conversation.

In my case at least the conversation starters are all there in my head, but I'm discarding them hunting for the "perfect" one which obviously never comes and the moment passes.

ajkjk

another thing to keep in mind is that

> try to talk to someone > run out of things to talk about > feel awkward or dumb

is not really a bad outcome, physically speaking.

IMO ost people's anxiety about things X is not "fear of X" but rather "fear of fear" or "fear of embarrassment": they'll avoid something because it could go wrong and then... what? what if it goes wrong? nothing physically bad happens except that you're uncomfortable for a moment. But it's your subsequent reaction to the discomfort that is the actual source of the issue, not the discomfort itself. Which is why a lot of progress on anxiety can be made by focusing on the response: find ways of practicing being in the situation and being uncomfortable to a survivable degree such that you can learn to not be averse to the situation and can thus start adapting to it.

ajkjk

*most, sigh

mnkv

Just talk to them as if they were already your friend. Most of what you talk about with friends isn't just mutual interests and you start conversations with them all the time.

ajcp

"I did the same thing; whoever designed these doors was a sadist." -

"Do you like that bag? I've been meaning to get a new one, I'm so tired of this one." -

"Now see, if we were as good looking/rich/smart as him we could have figured that out." -

"Is that thing broken again? I'm telling you, we're in the wrong business man." -

"Nothing to do with talent, it's a money and equipment problem, we're awesome at this." -

I've used each one of these in the past week with complete strangers, in neutral-to-unfamiliar surroundings, in passing, and the most hostile reaction I've gotten is "hahaha, I know right?" :)

mettamage

I had a similar challenge but more dating oriented (not fully though). I'm not at your level, but I want to be. Happily married nowadays, so it'd be a pure social challenge this time.

jeffbee

Being able and willing to talk to strangers unlocks the eventuality that you will one day start chatting with a person who also does that and it will be like the small talk singularity. Once a man approached me and complemented my bicycle, and I engaged with him, and since we were both waiting at the same breakfast counter without anyone else, we sat down at a table and had breakfast together, and an hour later I could have counted him as a friend. Uncommon, but exhilarating possibility.

intrasight

Happened to me out on a group training run five years ago. She and I are now engaged and will be getting married in July.

When I still had a personal Reddit account, I would be on the dating and relationship subs and promote the idea to do something every week where you see the same people. even better do two or three such things every week. That's what I did, and I quickly went from zero local friends to dozens.

The gym is a fine place to do that but only if you're doing classes where there's an expectation that people will be socializing. I made some of my best friends in such gym classes including my current best friend. She indirectly introduced me to my fiancé because she suggested I join a running club to train.

shevy-java

> Fast forward to today, I can literally talk about anything to anyone.

Try me!

Though it is a social skill indeed. But there are some people who are always weird, so I don't buy into the "I can talk to anyone" claim.

For me it is easiest to talk to people who are like the dude in the big lebowski. People who rarely upset about anything. The true hipsters.

nasir

haha the dudes are of course the best. when I say "I can talk to anyone" it doesn't mean "Everyone will talk back to me". Which is fine and I don't care. For what its worth I'm glad not to have to talk to boring people.

What I want is to have a laugh or an interesting intellectual conversation.

tomjen3

As a stranger - its also super annoying when random people want to talk to you.

dpark

That’s fair. You can decline to participate in casual conversations and be annoyed.

Most people don’t mind someone initiating a casual conversation in a non threatening manner. Most will enjoy it, at least sometimes.

I’m happy for the author here, especially that he was able to shrug off these awkward interactions and move on.

stronglikedan

As someone who wants to have meaningful interactions even if they are brief, it's super annoying when I just want to offer a compliment or joke to a stranger and they think I'm trying to talk to them. Are they so selfish that a little chuckle or "thank you" is going to break them?

delecti

How does that make someone selfish? I'm sure there are judgements you could make against someone who would prefer to be left alone, I just don't see how "selfish" could be one of them.

For me, one of the main motivations is suspicion of ulterior motives. If it really is just "hey I like your hat okay bye" that's one thing, and is generally harmless. But usually when someone approaches me they want something, either they're selling me something, or asking me to sign something. It's not that the initial comment is necessarily an issue, it's guarding against people pretending to have an innocent interaction as a foot-in-the-door technique.

IncreasePosts

For every person like you there's 500 dudes who want something from the stranger - their money, their body, etc. People are standoffish because they don't have the context that you do regarding the interaction and it's unclear which way it's going.

subscribed

Or maybe they have one of the millions of reason to not want to talk with the strangers.

World is not your amusement park, people are entitle to NOT wanting to talk to you as much as you feel entitled to talk with everyone.

soopypoos

Hey there, Mister!

anondarhimes

This was excellent.

If I may toss out another recommendation: Volunteering is one of the best ways I have found to meet people.

A food pantry, house of worship, the library, a community theater, a political group, an environmental service group, local writers group, homeless shelter, women's center, whatever - there are so many things to choose from.

I found several advantages to making friends this way:

1. no/low stress because you are doing them a favor showing up. Any volunteer-based organization NEEDS people. YOU are people. They NEED you. Don't be stressed because you might not know what's going on. They will be GLAD to see you.

2. Volunteer onboarding processes force other humans to be nice to you and get to know you in order to place you in a service group or provide you an assignment. The people that most organizations have doing this are outgoing and friendly. I'm generalizing, but having served with a bunch of volunteer organizations, I have found this to be the rule. I was often one of them.

3. If you are volunteering for something that you care about / believe in / are passionate for, then you INSTANTLY know that you are meeting people with something in common. This gives you both something to talk about or bond over.

Source: I met my wife and many friends volunteering in different organizations.

kshahkshah

Acts of service.

I was at a Gurudwara (Sikh house of Worship) yesterday for a wake and everyone who enters the cafeteria perform shevas, that is, you take a turn serving everyone else food. It was very nice to do.

brushfoot

Wonderful! There's a lot of advice online about how essentially evil it is to talk to strangers: They're busy, they have headphones in, they might think you're hitting on them (God forbid; nothing could be more evil than attraction). Ignore it. It often as not boils down to fear and neuroticism from terminally online introverts (and sometimes plain old misanthropists) raised in a hyper-individualist culture and glued to devices sometimes from infancy.

Fair enough if an introvert just wants to be left alone; we should obviously never force our company on anyone (nor do the mentally healthy among us have any desire to do so, because we have empathy). However, people like that will let us know that they don't want to talk when we approach them, either directly or via body language and the nature of their replies. For many others, they're starving for social interaction, and it might make their day for you to reach out. This is what makes outreach worth it, in the end, despite the risk.

dlivingston

I find it so bitterly ironic that the people whose opinions we read the most of - the terminally online Redditors and tweeters - are exactly the kind of people we should not be listening to.

Like you alluded to, the terminally online people who post the most tend to be those with neuroticism, isolation, severe anxiety, etc. There's a famous Reddit post about this I can't seem to find - "Everyone Online Is Insane" or something.

I really think this is why the past decade+ of American culture, politics, and society has been so off-the-wall insane. The Overton Window - another overused Redditism - of society has shifted towards the opinions of the neurotic and anxious. Those are the people whose words fill the comment sections and posts that we all read, which then infuse our minds to expect these thoughts as the baseline/median opinion of society.

47thpresident

"Every piece of social advice on Reddit is designed to ensure that you die alone"

https://old.reddit.com/r/redscarepod/comments/1kkey4d/every_...

> Doesn't matter who you ask on this site. The incel, the rad fem, the regular liberal, the happily married person, the casanova; they will all tell you some variety to stay in your own lane and shut up. They will all use different language, but the meanings will always be the same: they live a life of constant loneliness and have found kinship with others who agree that to ever do something to counter that loneliness is beyond abhorrent behaviour.

Abster1

Yes, this is a theory I've been thinking about too.

Explains the rise of various political leaders very well.

I find it funny that even the people who comment on the "Everyone Online Is Insane" post sound obsessive or outside the norm.

I find it messes with my mental health when I read too many comments. In the real world I normally find people to be nice and kind. But then I go online and the world is totally different - I have to keep in perspective that its just a small outsized fraction.

wavemode

> I find it funny that even the people who comment on the "Everyone Online Is Insane" post sound obsessive or outside the norm.

Well, yeah. I agree with the statement that "everyone online is insane", while also recognizing that I myself am online a lot, and think and behave differently from societal norms.

I think that's part of what is needed. There's absolutely nothing wrong with thinking and behaving differently from other people. What's abnormal is when people become absorbed in the internet, to the point that they fail to recognize that people in real life, people outside their Internet echo chambers, think and behave very differently.

butlike

What's great about neurotic online personalities is that they're all contained within the little box on your lap or in your pocket. You turn it off and they all go away...

munificent

> You turn it off and they all go away...

They disappear to you, but not to all of the other people who you share a society with who are still staring at their little boxes. And, for better or worse, you still have to live in a world with and share elections with those people too.

I agree, completely, that it's good to get offline. But the pervasive societal effects of extremely online psychology can't be solved simply by opting oneself out of the game.

Miraltar

Post you mentioned (Most of What You Read on the Internet is Written by Insane People): https://www.reddit.com/r/slatestarcodex/comments/9rvroo/most...

thenoblesunfish

It's true but then again, for most things, the correct answer is somewhere there, amongst the BS, so if you have a good BS detector and want some ideas, you could do worse. You can't outsource the part where you see for yourself if stuff works, and form your own opinions.

0xDEAFBEAD

You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and misanthropy than reddit.

https://old.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/1o87cy4/oc...

Redditors want you to cut contact with all your loved ones so you can spend more time on reddit, telling people to cut contact with their loved ones. It's like a cult.

keybored

> I really think this is why the past decade+ of American culture, politics, and society has been so off-the-wall insane. The Overton Window - another overused Redditism - of society has shifted towards the opinions of the neurotic and anxious. Those are the people whose words fill the comment sections and posts that we all read, which then infuse our minds to expect these thoughts as the baseline/median opinion of society.

Why should anyone entertain this theory? You’re a comment box.

Edit: Thirty years ago us online freaks would just interact with other online freaks. Because normal people had real hobbies.

But now that we are all doomscrollers: why would normal people be interested in the comment boxes of online freaks? They’ve got YouTube shorts and whatever to watch.

That things like 4Chan has had an outsized effect is a different matter. It’s all mediated through twenty layers. It’s not normal people reading 4Chan and other freaks directly.

gjulianm

I think this mindset is maybe too close to being just "people that don't think like I do are just crazy" and dismissive of people's actual concerns.

TFNA

> they might think you're hitting on them (God forbid; nothing could be more evil than attraction)

You can find legions of people, particularly women, who do not want to be hit on unless they already find the other person attractive. Being hit on by an unattractive person may even quality for them as something akin to danger, already along the spectrum towards stalking or assault. Has nothing to do with being terminally online and has been reported since long before there was ever an internet.

> For many others, they're starving for social interaction

HN is an international forum, and while people are reporting increased loneliness in many countries, that doesn’t necessarily mean that they want attention from strangers. Where I live, a total stranger talking to you in public is annoying; it is strongly associated with foreigners who haven’t learned yet how to behave acceptably within the local culture. What people might be starving for are serious, long-term social bonds, of the kind that used to be common through large extended families, the parish church, team sports, and school friends who stay put and don’t move away. A mere friendly stranger in public could lead to such real bonds only rarely, so rarely that it’s not even worth considering.

astro-lizard

I am a woman, height is on the shorter side. I want to add my thoughts around this phenomena.

Oftentimes, a stranger coming up to you on the street spells danger, it has nothing to do with how attractive or unattractive they are.

It's hard to explain if you've never been in a woman's shoes, but you feel like prey. A chance conversation can quickly turn into a decades-long stalking event, one never knows. Unwanted attention for women can feel really dangerous, I have often been catcalled/followed when not with my husband (which is infuriating as an adult woman), and have been followed/catcalled on the street from the moment I turned 14, which you can imagine makes strangers coming up to on the street feel loaded.

HeartStrings

> You can find legions of people, particularly women, who do not want to be hit on unless they already find the other person attractive.

Tough luck, cupcake. Often you don’t know if she is into you til you approach. Often they are shy. If you keep overthinking this and afraid of being cringe, being filmed or being judged, then your genes will die out and your bloodline will end. But hey, at least you never made anyone awkward and lived a “safe” life. This will sit right with you at deathbed I’m sure.

cubefox

> Being hit on by an unattractive person may even quality for them as something akin to danger, already along the spectrum towards stalking or assault.

Just trying to initiate a conversation with someone simply is not stalking nor assault, even if it is perceived that way. Their "perception" is mistaken in this case.

> HN is an international forum, and while people are reporting increased loneliness in many countries, that doesn’t necessarily mean that they want attention from strangers. Where I live, a total stranger talking to you in public is annoying; it is strongly associated with foreigners who haven’t learned yet how to behave acceptably within the local culture.

I don't know what country you are from, but it is highly probable that even in your culture, public conversations significantly decreased in the past 30 years. Which means that the amount of interactions was higher than it is now, even within the same culture.

> A mere friendly stranger in public could lead to such real bonds only rarely, so rarely that it’s not even worth considering.

The gym example of this article points in the opposite direction, or do you think that gyms in your culture work differently?

TFNA

> Their "perception" is mistaken in this case.

It’s their right to decide how they perceive being approached by a stranger. And most of society is going to empathize with them and their feeling of unsafety, not with the stranger approaching them.

> even in your culture, public conversations significantly decreased in the past 30 years

The culture in my country never really had many “public conversations” from one stranger to another. This is something that has been noted by foreign travelers for generations now, at least back to the nineteenth or eighteenth centuries. What has changed are that the substantial family and institutional bonds I mentioned earlier have declined.

> do you think that gyms in your culture work differently?

They definitely do. This has already been mentioned by various people from different countries in this thread.

shpx

Computers are feedback loops that ultimately are trying to take up 100% of 100% of people's consciousness seconds, so it makes sense that the winning/dominant ideologies on the internet are just whichever ones cause you to not spend time on anything except the screen.

ZpJuUuNaQ5

I have never met anyone on the street who wasn't mentally ill or tried to sell me something. Types like this ignore your brief answers, facial expressions and body language, and continue to yap on. Honestly, I cannot imagine a single situation where a random interaction with a stranger on the street would be a positive experience. No, I do not strive for you to "reach out", on the contrary, I avoid you like a rotting carcass of a pigeon.

HeartStrings

This guy gets it.

keybored

In this Northern European country of mine, I’ve got as much of a neutral third party that I can think of: a friend born and raised to adulthood in the Third World. They’ve got more “extrovertism” in them than 99.9% of the natives. Yet this advice from socializing entrepeneurs with One Weird Trick doesn’t seem to hold up. People here are not all hypnotized by their screens and low self-esteem, or whatever, and then lifted up when their poor social-starved selves get attention from a kind stranger. We are just... like that. Not genetic. Not immutable. But it runs deep. Very deep. Deeper than what an “extrovert” all by themselves can penetrate.

So if there is a cultural pathology it takes way more than what socializing entrepeneurs seem to think.

> Fair enough if an introvert just wants to be left alone; we should obviously never force our company on anyone (nor do the mentally healthy among us have any desire to do so, because we have empathy). However, people like that will let us know that they don't want to talk when we approach them, either directly or via body language and the nature of their replies. For many others, they're starving for social interaction, and it might make their day for you to reach out. This is what makes outreach worth it, in the end, despite the risk.

[deleted]

> However, people like that will let us know that they don't want to talk when we approach them, either directly or via body language and the nature of their replies. For many others, they're starving for social interaction, and it might make their day for you to reach out. This is what makes outreach worth it, in the end, despite the risk.

Nope.

Normal people—not freaks like me—in my culture will fume in private. Yes: any slight by a stranger will be relegated to complaints to your friends. Much more likely than sending any bad vibes. We’re cowards like that.

I’m reminded of some anecdote about Westerners being struck by how helpful Japanese people are. (This is from memory and may be wrong.) The context is that they are tourists. Well, apparently Japanese people have very strict social norms about being polite and helpful. This is amazing for tourists: they get all of the social upsides while not having to pay anything in return (because they are oblivious to it).

tomjen3

I will happily stop and chat with you if you demonstrate that it is worth the time and interruption (if I was lost in thought, that will take at least 5-10 minutes to get back to).

If not, I will not let you know. I will just fume, blame and judge you for some time after.

philangist

"Hey sorry, I've got some things on my mind right now and can't really talk. Have a nice day though".

That takes less than 10 seconds to say, let's you protect your time and peace of mind, and as a bonus there's no need for fuming, blaming, and judging that the other person won't ever even know about.

gjulianm

The people likely to talk to strangers unprompted are also likely to ignore those kind of messages. Anything that can lead to further conversation can be used (like "oh, what's worrying you?") so actually politely nodding and smiling without giving any footing to further conversation works better than being assertive.

SchemaLoad

This requires social skills many HN users are lacking.

tomjen3

>let's you protect your time and peace of mind

Not even close.

gitowiec

"(God forbid; nothing could be more evil than attraction). " - is it sarcasm?

grunder_advice

I feel, like a lot of 21st century life is trying to do things artificially. Going to the gym, talking to strangers at the gym, ... these are both artifical replacements for human activity that is missing. You go to the gym because your daily routine isn't active enough. You try to form friendships with strangers because your daily routine lacks real and fulfilling interactions with other people.

Also it's kind of odd how nowadays everyone goes to the gym. Growing up as a late-stage millenial, gym goers were a niche subculture. Now it marketed to everyone everywhere as this integral part of modern daily life.

sparklingmango

> "Going to the gym, talking to strangers at the gym, ... these are both artifical replacements for human activity that is missing."

As opposed to what, our ancient hunter gatherer lifestyle? Going to the gym and talking to strangers at the gym isn't an "artificial replacement", it's a genuine activity lots of people do.

> "You try to form friendships with strangers because your daily routine lacks real and fulfilling interactions with other people."

How do you think people make friends? They make friends by interacting with people at shared spaces and activities.

bean469

> As opposed to what, our ancient hunter gatherer lifestyle?

I guess the point is that lots of people before didn't need gyms for staying fit. Gyms in certain countries used to be viewed as a place where athletes go to train, and in many places people still view gyms as that

I don't have the numbers to back this up, but in places where you don't need a car to get around, like Amsterdam, lots of people stay fit by just driving their bicycle to work, school and so on

globular-toast

> As opposed to what, our ancient hunter gatherer lifestyle?

Gardening, building things, maintenance, walking to the market etc.

I used to go to the gym but now I have a house and stuff to do it feels insane that I used my muscles to do useless work for so long.

fasterik

Isn't that a subjective value judgment? That's great that you enjoy gardening and building things with your hands. I don't really enjoy those activities and would rather sit down and read a book or play the piano in my free time. But I want to stay healthy so I exercise my muscles and cardiovascular system in "artificial" ways. What's wrong with that?

r14c

everyone is different, even if I'm biking/walking everywhere and working outside, I still need to work myself to exhaustion if I want to get any sleep. I currently train muay thai, but even when I was young and doing yard work for a living I still trained with my friends and played sports. heck, growing up my life was american football training during the day and after school, regular football a couple of times a week with friends, running around for fun, and then doing heavy yard work at home and at neighbor's houses on weekends.

Not that your's isn't valid, some people (like me) have a big surplus of energy that needs to go somewhere and sometimes the best available outlet is lifting weights.

alistairSH

I really don't know what to say, that was such an odd/funny take...

I have a house and stuff, and still go to the gym at 5:30 every morning, as a supplement to my running and cycling.

I guess my cycling is an artificial substitute for riding a horse? ;)

ryandrake

> Also it's kind of odd how nowadays everyone goes to the gym. Growing up as a late-stage millenial, gym goers were a niche subculture. Now it marketed to everyone everywhere as this integral part of modern daily life.

GenX here and I feel the same way. To me, "The Gym" has always been a place where bodybuilders and muscle heads go. In my mind, it will always be a niche hobby like autocross racing or horseback riding. And I know that I'm wrong! Everyone and their mom seems to go to The Gym now! But, it's hard to change the culture and learnings that you grew up with.

parliament32

I think it's because the general public figured out they'll die in their 50s if they don't. Modern life is too easy -- a substantial portion of the population spends their white-collar lives flying a desk, "socializing" via sitting around eating and drinking, hiring people to do their landscaping and housework.. hell, you don't even need to walk to get food anymore, both restaurant meals and groceries are delivered. Sure, you might get out to a hike every weekend but that's simply not enough. For health it's pretty much a non-negotiable to go do some strenuous activity every other day, and going to the gym is the path of least resistance to getting that done.

fundad

I think about this a lot too. There always seems to be a fitness trend involving classes like aerobics, yoga, pilates, Taibo, Zumba. But if we're talking about weight training, it is definitely having a moment now.

I wonder if all the instructional content on Youtube makes training with weights and weight machines more accessible than ever. I was intimidated by weights and figured it would be boring. A guy I knew was talking about his weight training and I asked if he plans things out with friends/workout buddies and he said he learns about it on YouTube. So when I finally pushed myself to try weights, I found a video. It was a petite woman (I'm a dude) and I thought, ok she looks better than I do and this routine is a nice start. And I went from there, in my forties.

My funniest theory is that dating has been getting more competitive and strength-training is good for confidence.

stuxnet79

> For health it's pretty much a non-negotiable to go do some strenuous activity every other day, and going to the gym is the path of least resistance to getting that done

You are right, but the reason it's so prevalent is also because it is better for capitalism. Going to the gym isn't just a 1-off activity, it's an entire lifestyle & it doesn't necessarily come cheap. You need a membership, specialized gear, lessons, switch your consumption habits to high protein foods ... etc

alistairSH

Aerobics classes have been a thing for decades. Pumping Iron came out in 1977. When I was in college (UVA, 95-99), there were several good gyms, plus they built a fancy new one about mid-way through my degree.

I suspect you just happened to be in a time/place where gym use was lower than average.

charlie90

Yeah I think this is everywhere in society now. For example, you used to have to ask others for directions, which naturally leads in to conversation about where your going.

Now you look like a bit odd if you ask for directions since everyone has a smart phone now. So you have to go create artificial scenarios to socialize.

parliament32

> Going to the gym... artificial replacements for human activity that is missing

Compared to what? Even the ancient Greeks and Romans spent a significant amount of time in gymnasiums. Or are you comparing modern times to cavemen?

maerF0x0

I'll take a shot at this one:

Compared to a life rhythm that was intrinsically social: recurring gatherings of your community (which used to mean proximity, not hobby) at a building, being invited to others' houses, a social expectation to be social and host things, recurring interaction with the same people due to a smaller circle. Contrast: today we're expected to leave a group of people to go to school, leave those people to move to a job, leave those people for hobbies and romance, and to never let those circle overlap.

Gym wise: compared to life being heavy, and relatively full of physical effort. (Even just working on a car/wood/metal/house/farm with hand tools for example). Cycling to work has done wonders to bridge this gap for me. I think also the current beauty/attraction aesthetic is hard to approach without dedicated weight training. At the top end of lean muscle mass modern life just isn't heavy enough to stimulate enough muscle growth, and in preferred proportions, unless you're willing to do tons and tons of reps which is exceedingly painful compared to banging out 5-15 of a rep range appropriate weight.

williamdclt

> it's kind of odd how nowadays everyone goes to the gym. Growing up as a late-stage millenial, gym goers were a niche subculture

Let's not make it a generalisation. The US and UK are big into the gym thing, not every country is. I remember seeing some data that ~25% of people in the UK (maybe a slice of population, eg 18-30yo, can't remember) were regular gym-goers against 8% in France.

nunez

crossfit made the gym (and free weights) cool

crossfit became popular as a side effect of "bootcamp" style workouts in the 2000s-2010s, like the Spartan Run, Tough Mudder, Rucking, etc.

mark rippetoe, creator of Starting Strength, was heavily involved in crossfit. between that and him franchising his Starting Strength practice, powerlifting became more widely practiced. once Instagram started building lifestyle brands around this (gymshark, alphalete, nobull, darcsport, etc.), it was a lock.

philipwhiuk

This stuff comes in waves and every generation thinks that it's unique. Adidas was originally a pro fitness brand like Gymshark is now. Gymshark will become athleisure just like Adidas, it's just a matter of time.

Crossfit is just the name for HIIT training that's pumped as a new branded workout. Note that already it's now Hyrox. It will be something else in a few years.

dlivingston

Former Crossfitter. HIIT routines are prominent in CrossFit but it is more than just that.

CrossFit is functional fitness, meaning the goal is to build a broad foundation of athleticism - strength, speed, agility, endurance.

So, while HIIT is prominent in the WOD (workout of the day), so are Olympic lifts, running, climbing, and mobility.

untrust

Boomers and Gen X are riddled with diseases associated with a sedentary lifestyle and poor nutrition/diet. I would like to think the generations are learning from the mistakes of their predecessors. A lot of science has come out about the benefits of resistance training as well, along with the normalization of women doing resistance training in large part due to CrossFit

outime

If you want to build a relationship with someone, try asking them for a small favor rather than offering one first* (or, for example, making random small talk about the weather). Most people love to help and feel useful. If you're new to the gym or want to learn a new exercise, you can simply ask for help. It's something we'naturally do if we weren't so afraid of approaching strangers.

*just paraphrasing a famous quote

Aurornis

I have heard this repeated across books and podcasts for years but I’ve only seen it fail in person.

Maybe it might not fail if the “favor” isn’t really a favor at all but instead something almost completely effortless like asking for the time or directions to the bathroom.

However when someone is at the gym and another stranger asks them to stop and do a favor that takes time out of their gym visit it’s just annoying, not a friendship starter.

outime

Respectfully, I think you're looking at this from a bad angle. You wouldn't go up to someone in the middle of a set, wearing headphones, and ask them to stop what they're doing to help you. Instead, you find someone who's finishing a set/exercise and politely say something like "hey, I'd like to try this exercise and you seem to know it well, would you mind taking a moment to give me a hand?".

I've personally done this twice this year (I genuinely wanted to learn, I'm not using it as a strategy) and it worked very well. I suppose culture plays a role but I'm in one of those countries where people don't usually socialize with strangers and it still works.

Aurornis

I’m typing this comment from the gym, actually. I’m on the friendlier end of the spectrum and really don’t mind helping out when someone could use some actual help. Giving a quick spot or a quick exchange of advice is common.

What I don’t enjoy is when someone ropes me into doing something for them when it becomes clear that they had other intentions for the request. It’s the ulterior motive part that can have the opposite of the intended effect.

When you realize someone asked the favor not really because they needed it but because they thought it would be an opening to get you into conversation, you start wondering what their real motive is. In this case it may be benign enough, but it’s not a great way to start a conversation

grvdrm

Easy one: you are about to lift something and need a spot.

"Hi, can I ask you for a spot?" - hard to argue w/premise of ask and many people would be happy to assist you and see you achieve whatever goal you have for that lift.

Hobadee

You need to find a better gym then...

"Hey man, can you spot me?" Is a pretty universal request, and frequently honored. Once you are done with your set, offer to spot them, and while you are both resting after your respective sets, start up some small talk. If small talk works, continue to bigger conversations.

Aurornis

I’m typing this comment from the gym, actually! Spotting someone is common and I’m happy to do it.

That’s not what I was talking about. The part that fails is when someone asks for a favor but then it becomes apparent that they didn’t actually need the favor, they were just trying to find a way to talk to you. Like when someone requests a spot and then you come over and realize the weight they’re lifting is so light that there is no reason they needed a spot other than as a conversation starter.

If you actually need help then asking is fine.

If you don’t need help but you’re coming up with reasons to trick someone into giving you help so you can talk to them, that’s a situation with an ulterior motive. People are good at identifying ulterior motives and it doesn’t set you up for conversational success.

If someone just wants to talk, I don’t recommend playing these mind games. Just learn how to strike up conversation. The honesty will be appreciated and it won’t trigger other people’s ulterior motive detectors.

SoftTalker

No. Don't start up some small talk right then, unless they are clearly inviting it. Leave them alone, they did what you asked. After a couple of workouts, you know their name, they know your name, you are familiar to each other, then maybe you start asking what they do or getting to know more about them.

At least that's what I do. If someone I don't know at all asks me for a spot and then starts immediately hitting me with a bunch of questions/chitchat I'm suspicious. The last time this happened it turned out to be a guy who fancied himself a powerlifting coach and was looking for new clients.

malfist

Depends. I'm an introvert, but lifting is my second passion. I've noticed someone doing a lift I want to get better at and asked them for advice, form check, etc and they're usually excited to share the hobby. The reverse is true too.

: After astrophotography, before cycling

SJMG

> However when someone is at the gym and another stranger asks them to stop and do a favor that takes time out of their gym visit it’s just annoying, not a friendship starter.

Might be the place you live; this is not my experience at all. I ask randos to spot me every week. People love to help out. Sometimes they'll even keep an eye on you in case you have another set and come offering.

Aurornis

I think you’re missing the point. The original advice wasn’t actually about the spot, it was about coming up with a “favor” to ask to trick someone into being friendly.

If you’re just asking for advice or a legitimate assistance and then moving on then there is absolutely no problem with that because it’s honest from beginning to end.

My point is don’t go out of your way to seek favors from people because you think it’s a hack to trick them into being more friendly with you.

Just be honest.

Izikiel43

Often I get asked to spot someone while their lift and I don’t mind, maybe you had bad luck.

matwood

I was about to say this. Anyone who has spent any time at the gym will have zero problem spotting someone.

cubefox

> I have heard this repeated across books and podcasts for years but I’ve only seen it fail in person.

Counterpoint: I have seen it succeed in person. Asking for a little help is a great ice breaker.

Tade0

Yeah, that sounds like really bad advice.

Personally I would read this as a weak, but noticeable signal of being a person who is okay with taking advantage of others. Most people are too embarrassed to ask complete strangers for actual favours.

jbellis

Your calibration is wildly off. Asking people for a spot is totally normal at any gym with free weights.

mrlnstk

I don't think so. Last week someone asked me if they could use one of my climbing equipment for a moment and I said sure. They asked me in a friendly manner and I had a positive feeling of them afterwards.

jbs789

Jeez. It happens all the time in the normal world.

arscan

I learned about this technique from Owen Wilson’s character in the otherwise exceptionally forgettable movie “The Haunting (1999).” Paradoxically, you are the one doing them a favor by effectively giving them permission to ask for help in the future.

helgee

The Ben Franklin effect is real! My experience at conferences has improved significantly by ending talks on a personal note and explicitly saying that I have trouble approaching people but very much like being approached and chat about anything. This usually leads to interesting conversations in the breaks. Please give it a try if you are like me and aimlessly wander the hallways in between sessions otherwise.

noIdeaTheSecond

I've learned this by reading Influence by Robert Cialdini.The trick is find something to which they say yes. If they do it their brain kind of tells them: If I did him/her a favor it's because I like him/her.... and liking opens other doors

jasondigitized

This is a Benjamin Franklin hack right?

InfiniteLoup

I have heard that this is called the Benjamin Franklin effect, and it appears to be an inversion of the principle of reciprocity coined by Robert Cialdini.

skrebbel

proper psychopath stuff this. seriously just be nice to people. OP gets it right.

outime

It might be psychopathic behavior to make things up just to ask for help, but that's not what I'm saying (and you can see the rest of the thread for reference). What I mean is that one of the many ways relationships are formed is through collaboration, rather than small talk about irrelevant things that 99.9% of the time leads nowhere. Be the first to help, or ask for help when you genuinely need it. There's nothing psychopathic about that, this is as human as it gets - you'll observe the same behavior with certain animals.

HeartStrings

"According to Reddit” - so many lives have been ruined listening to what gremlins on social media have to say.

It’s simple. If you want, approach. It’s not dangerous, you won’t get cancer. If they don’t want to talk, you will stop talking with them and talk with someone else.

"I am deeply afraid of irritating someone or being in awkward situations." - anyone who thinks like this is suffering from abused dog syndrome and unironically has lost at life.

Also, why is he talking about “friends” and “strangers”? We all know he means “women". And there is LITERALLY no problem politely engaging conversation with a strange woman at the gym even if she has earpods on. It’s not a crime, just be normal. You are forgetting that other people are shy too and often want someone to take initiative since in 2026 nobody does.

MyelinatedT

> Also, why is he talking about “friends” and “strangers”? We all know he means “women".

Does he? It seems like he socialised mainly with men in the documented interactions. Perhaps he really was just lonely in the general sense.

Stalecelin

My life quality increased immensely when I realized most of Reddit is bots and the parts written by real humans are usually written by the type of person that you really shouldn’t take any advice from

nicbou

Meeting a few redditors in real life shows you who you're interacting with. It's a very mixed bag.

ragazzina

What kind of reddit do you browse? The /r/funny one or the /r/composting one?

Stalecelin

Not even a big "browser". This realization hit me after missing some uni events after reading negative comments on town subreddit, then discovering that I actually know one of the commenters in real life and he is just a plain idiot and it was an obvious mistake to not go. When there is no objective criteria, relying on personal judgement or plain chance is just a better way to go instead of overthinking based on stranger advice.

datenyan

> ... anyone who thinks like this is suffering from abused dog syndrome and unironically has lost at life.

I mean, social anxiety - the neurosis itself - is just this. People haven't "lost at life" for having a mental health problem. I think it's quite commendable that someone can recognise their own shortcomings in this regard and work on it in a positive light.

What you might find easy, someone else might find exceedingly difficult - for example, people who find it difficult to keep up their health when they are clinically depressed.

Cytobit

You can find contrary advice for any given topic, all upvoted highly, if you look for it.

setgree

Good for you, OP! Climbing gyms are especially good for making friends because you are working on problems with people. My gym has a weekly meet up for people looking for belay partners as well as classes where folks talk. Crossfit might also do the trick, as might a running club. Good luck!

GuB-42

The other thing with climbing gyms, especially bouldering is that you only spend maybe 20% of the time climbing. With 80% time off, that's a lot of opportunities for socializing.

You don't get that with the high intensity training like Crossfit where you spend maybe 70% of the time working out and 30% of the time dying.

rjh29

And socialisation happens naturally. You're waiting and lots of other people are doing the same. You are working on problems and can exchange tips or complements or cheer people on. It's inherently social.

The gym is not inherently social unless you are actively spotting / alternating uses of a single machine. You either join that group of gym rats (who in my experience spend 80% of their time talking) or you put your headphones on and crack on solo.

poetril

I'll second climbing gyms. My entire core group of friends in my city (that weren't already friends prior to my moving here) are people I met from the climbing gym or yoga classes at the climbing gym.

Its a great space to meet new people, there are inherent breaks in the activity, shared problems to work on, and its a non-competitive space. Everyone just wants everyone else to send hard.

crabraver

I relate a lot OP's situation but every time I think about trying to talk to someone else I just get worried that if it does go "bad" (i.e. very awkward) then it will become to mentally hard to stay at the gym for the rest of the session or even come back and since its a place I actually like being in I end up never trying anything in fear of ruining a place I like. I don't know if anyone else feels like that but I just felt like leaving this comment.

Hobadee

As long as you don't bring up politics, religion, or money, you would be hard-pressed to make it so bad you wouldn't be able to stay or even come back. If things are SUPER awkward, just move to the other side of the gym or go to the bathroom for a little bit (~5-10m or so) then feel free to return, just don't talk to that person again other than a simple "hi" if warranted.

coffeebeqn

It’s probably mostly your social anxiety speaking there. If you go in not expecting anything in return it won’t get that awkward just go alright I’ll let you get back to it and go back to doing your thing.

I had like 20 years of social anxiety and it’s actually very anti-climactic when you can have a normal short conversation with a stranger. Not dramatic and no one’s traumatized

thitran

I had the same issue! I was nervous/awkward around the people who didn't want to talk to me. I can't say if it will be the same for you but after a week of me seeing them, them seeing me, and us doing our thing, I got used it and lowkey forgot about it. I don't think it's as big of a deal as we think

paganel

It’s a similar thing for me at coffee-shops that I frequent quite often and where I often see recurring faces. In a way it’s natural, “making contact”, so to speak, would only help transform those third spaces into potential-friends spaces, which might be good for some, but which might also seem less desirable for others.

rikschennink

+1 from me. I always find it very challenging to speak to strangers, but not at the Boulder gym. There's just so many opportunities to start a natural conversation:

- new climbers asks you for advise

- you can ask a new climber if they'd like some technique tips

- you finally top your project and someone commends you for it

- someone tops your project and you ask them for advise

- you're trying to top a boulder on a new set and are solving it with others

- you're _constantly_ in the gym so staff starts talking to you

jsharpe

I love when I'm climbing alone and working on something really hard for me and some random people just start cheering as I get near the top. :)

LandR

Man, I've been bouldering now at my gym for maybe 18 months and I can count on one hand the number of times I've spoken to someone.

A lot of people on their own have earbuds in too,and clearly don't want to be spoken to.

I had one time where I asked someone for some help, he then went and did the route and shrugged and said it's easy in a really condescending manner.

dimxasnewfrozen

I used to rock climb in gyms a lot. I stopped going because I found the people there incredibly irritating (didn't matter on the gym). The things that irritated me: 1) People would immediately jump on the route I was on after seeing I struggled. Cool flex. 2) Unsolicited advice. Thanks, but I'm here minding my own business

I generally have a hard time connecting with people like OP but found that I was able to find good climbing partners outside as opposed to in the gym.

I now do crossfit and while I know it's not for everyone, it's a decent community. I still don't talk to folks in the gym, I don't want to but I like that we're all in it together and pushing ourselves pretty hard. I feel connected in that way.

I would really not like a stranger tapping me on the shoulder in the gym. That's my "alone time". That's just me though.

setgree

You know the old adage about if you meet one jerk in a day, it's them, but if everyone you meet is a jerk...anyway I'm glad you like CrossFit, if climbing weren't my thing, I'd probably do something in that category instead :)

dimxasnewfrozen

haha not the first time I've been called a jerk. Probably why I like to keep to myself ;)

jsharpe

I can see why people would be irritated by 1 and 2 and they happen to me too, but I have just reframed how I think about them.

If someone jumps on something I'm struggling with, I take it as an opportunity to really pay attention to what they're doing and try to learn. They might just be way stronger, but they probably also have some better technique ideas.

For #2, I just take it as a slightly awkward attempt to reach out and socialize. Advice isn't harmful. At worst it's a mild spoiler (oh well), or just wrong (then ignore it). At best it's a great chance to learn something.

I'm awkward and it's rare for me to start a conversation, so I just take someone else talking to me as an opportunity to connect without having to make the awkward first step, and try to spend a minute or two (at least) talking with the person.

williamdclt

> People would immediately jump on the route I was on after seeing I struggled. Cool flex.

I find it highly strange to assume malicious intent ("flexing"), rather than charitable one (they're just interested in this route regardless of you being on it, or your attempt made this route seem fun/interesting and made them want to try it for themselves).

People seem to assume bad intent all the time when there's obvious equally-or-more-likely charitable explanations, to the point that I wonder if it's me who's naive.

b1temy

I completely agree with climbing gyms!

I'm lucky enough that I live in a city that has a newbie-friendly group that climbs every week and goes for dinner and board games afterwards.

I consider myself an introvert, but after going for a while, I got to figure out who are regulars, and they recognise me as a new regular too, at which point they're more open to socialising more, even outside the weekly meetups.

Even when I'm bouldering alone, I've had random people cheer for me when I'm about to send, or show me the beta for a route I'm struggling with, or ask for help with a problem. It just provides a very natural conversation starter, at which point you can pivot to other topics, provided they seem open to talking more.

mrlnstk

+1 for climbing gyms. In my experience the people there are really open and welcoming. Most are down for a quick chat.

cpfohl

Liverpool (near OP who’s in Syracuse) has a fantastic very friendly climbing gym with Auto Belays; easy to go solo.

aeturnum

I've always had an easy time talking to strangers and striking up conversations. I think this line is the key one:

> But over time, I came to accept that it’s ok if they didn’t want to talk to me. That’s just one of the things you have to expect when you do something like this.

People are complex! They have a lot going on. You almost never get someone responding with the same attention you are giving. That's just how it is.

What he is doing is developing a practice of friendliness. This won't develop close friendships - close friendships are what happen after you're successfully friendly to people who are good fit. But it will set you up to do well in semi-public spaces like the gym or your friends' party where you don't know anyone. It's an extremely good skill to practice and, unlike what I would have said at twenty, it does not reflect a lack of depth. Understanding that not everyone wants to have a deep conversation at every moment is maturity - doubly so if you can recognize it in yourself.

jasondigitized

I have always been good at this and I am pretty introverted. You don't want to force conversations, just start by saying 'What's up?"'. Keep doing it over and over. The is all proved our in social psychology and proximity theory which in a nutshell means you are more likely to get to know people you see more often. You just need to let people know you see them and over time raise the bar.

yakkomajuri

I can definitely relate. What's funny is I've always been really social and open to talking to strangers, plus I come from a culture where this is accepted and encouraged (Brazil).

However, I've been working remotely for 7 years now and recently became a solo founder, and I realized I'm having a fair amount of social anxiety. At the previous two companies, I was working remotely but still had people online to chat to, and would meet in person once in a while. Now as a solo founder I've just been working from home and I noticed that when I was leaving the house to buy groceries or work out that was my "break time" and I somehow just wanted to be more alone so I always had my headphones on.

That meant that I became someone who's running away from social interaction the more I actually needed it. And that when placed in a social situation I'm suddenly anxious whereas before this all came very naturally to me (I've also spoken in public very often etc).

How I'm coping:

- Got a WeWork membership

- Leaving the house without headphones

- Striking up conversation with uber drivers, cashiers, etc

- Making an effort to go to events (even flying somewhere at my own expense to speak at a small event for the first time in years)

nunez

On headphones: I recently got a set of Aftershokz headphones to use as sleep headphones that worked with my custom earplugs plugged in.

They work amazingly for that purpose, but I was not at all prepared for how much more social these would (re-)make me.

Listening to music helps me relax. If I could, I'd have something on at all times. (Jazz in the morning, KEXP in the afternoon, classical at night.) With these, I can talk to people and hear them crystal clearly while listening to whatever I have on. I don't need to compromise like I did (and do) while wearing AirPods (even in transparency mode). This has made me more receptive to striking up conversation.

On coworking: couldn't agree more. Being around other people has been great for my mental health, even if I'm not talking to them. I'm also the kind of person that needs work and home life to be physically separate and needs a commute to make work feel like work. Taking the bus into work is scratching that itch well.

cruffle_duffle

Remote work is absolutely brutal to a cohesive functioning society. I know people are going to slam me for saying it but is honestly true. People forgot how to interact with each other because the forcing function that gets everybody mixed together into the same pot got taken away. And if you don’t take some fairly extreme steps to counter it, you’ll be completely alone and isolated, subject to algorithmically chosen feeds that are completely unique to you and detached from the community around you.

It’s really quite dystopian and anti-human if you ask me. We’ve already lost so much shared mediums—nobody watches the same shows, reads the same media, etc. which in isolation is completely fine. But something has to be shared with other real physical humans and it has to be more than just occasional grocery store visits, run-ins at the park, etc.

I dunno quite how to articulate it very well though. It’s just remote work has a nasty side effect of making humans even more isolated from people not like themselves. It makes us all increasingly divided and “othered”. And that isn’t good for anybody.

kshacker

I agree. I have been fully remote for a bit over 2 years, and I myself feel a change. In the early days I had a managerial role so I felt the need to visit office and deal with employees, colleagues and customers. Office is 5 miles so not too far, I just avoid going as my family health issues may require my intervention. Now that I am an IC, and the health issues are not sorted, my visits have reduced, and I think it is slowly changing me for the worse - in terms of discipline, social interactions and even productivity which you think would be higher from home. Thankfully though I am starting to recognize some of the patterns and working to fix them but you can fix productivity, you can not fix lack of socialization.

elzbardico

I think remote work should have been accompanied with a reduction in the working week.

Everybody is working more hours in a day with remote work, it would only be fair to have the friday in return.

gjulianm

> People forgot how to interact with each other because the forcing function that gets everybody mixed together into the same pot got taken away.

A lot of offices don't force you to interact with each other, much less in meaningful ways.

> And if you don’t take some fairly extreme steps to counter it, you’ll be completely alone and isolated

Are "having more time to meet with friends and family" or "having time to do hobbies with other people" extreme steps?

throw4847285

I have friends and family, but staring at a computer 8 hours or more a day is corrosive to my mental health.

And when I am in an office, I do interact with people, in meaningless and meaningful ways, whether I am forced to or not.

I know this does not apply to everybody, but I function best with constant low level social interaction. I should have picked a different career, but I didn't have that foresight.

nunez

you wouldve been downvoted into the seventh layer of hell for saying this three years ago.

noisy_boy

Recently I went to the grocery store and as I entered the alcohol section, I saw a guy stacking the shelves. His hand slipped and the beer can jumped out but he showed impressive reflexes and caught it after couple of fumbles. There was no one else but him and me in the aisle.

I enthusiastically pointed out, "I saw that! That was amazing, great reflexes!" and added that sometimes no one sees these but I will definitely remember it. He was beaming and while I was checking out my stuff, I saw him excitedly pointing towards the aisle and me while chatting with a cashier. Where I am at, it is not the usual to throw loud and vocal compliments at strangers - so I guess he wasn't used to it.

I usually don't compliment people this enthusiastically but I guess the mood and time was right and I felt as good giving the compliment as he must have felt receiving it.

Larx-3

I think a big part of this is that men don't typically receive genuine compliments that often, especially from strangers or acquaintances. When it (rarely) does happen I feel like it can have a significant impact on their mood.

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