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bityard
aucisson_masque
There is a difference tho between being'pretty usable' and actually being usable with your passwords, data and just being reliable enough for everyday.
I think the gap between having nothing to having a prototype is way smaller than between having something 'pretty usable' and something that is usable.
adamrt
Good call! I’ve heard Andreas say multiple times building a browser is like building an emulator. Each website uses different features in different ways, and he likens websites to roms.
satvikpendem
If you want to use no-Javascript browser as well, this browser prototype [0] is getting pretty good too. It's developed by Dioxus, a GUI framework in Rust, as part of its native renderer which seeks to create their own alternative to Skia, similar to Flutter, but it'll work on the web as well with HTML and CSS standards unlike Flutter web which is just a canvas.
It's also a from scratch implementation, sort of, using existing Rust crates like stylo (which servo also uses) and taffy, but it doesn't rely on any code from existing browsers such as Chromium, Gecko or WebKit.
[0] https://github.com/DioxusLabs/blitz (in /apps/browser)
pgwalsh
This is great. I'm building a site that has JavaScript but is fully functional without it, this would be fun to see how it renders it. I use htmx, AlpineJS and Vanilla JS just for additional help for users with forms and search but works fine without it. Thanks for sharing this.
I will recompile ladybird too. Last time it had made great progress but was no where near read for regular use.
NBPEL
The hardest part for browser development has always been "artificial" web compatibility, as you know a lot of websites are forcefully blocking specific browser from loading, only allow Chromium to load their websites, that is the reality check for Ladybird, and seriously what stopping new web browsers from being able to compete, same with DRM Widevine, it's REALLY hard to acquire (unobtainiumware) for new browser, even big browser like Zen Browser with 10M users failed to acquire it
pjmlp
Unfortunately a whole new generation failed to learn the IE lesson, and are the first to complain when others don't follow the Chrome OS Platform wishes.
JoRyGu
How common is this that they would even care about it anyways? I've run Firefox exclusively for the last 2 decades and have never once run into a site that told me I needed to switch to Chromium for compatibility.
tame3902
In the past Vivaldi used their own user agent string and they ran into a bunch of issues. And they are a chrome derivative! They had to default to the chrome user agent. Here are the examples they cite in their announcement of the decision:
"On Google.com if you present a Vivaldi user agent and arrive via a redirect, the search text box will be misaligned
On Google Docs if you present a Vivaldi user agent you will receive a warning
On Facebook’s WhatsApp web interface if you present a Vivaldi user agent, you cannot enter the site and are advised to switch to one of our competitors
On Microsoft Teams (chat and collaboration website), presenting a Vivaldi user agent will stop you from being able to use the website
On Netflix, presenting a Vivaldi user agent results in a suggestion to install Silverlight to play videos… yes… really… Silverlight!"
hellcow
When these mega-companies block new competitors it really ought to be seen as collusion. Google, Facebook, and Microsoft certainly have the resources to test and approve the occasional new browser.
progval
Common enough that Mozilla has full-time engineers working on triaging compatibility issues, so they can either be fixed in Firefox or reported to webmasters. Here are the reports they get: https://webcompat.com/issues
pbhjpbhj
A lot of systems seem to silently fail on Firefox - my broadband supplier's website failed at the last step of the onboarding process. I managed to get charged for installation (connection by the network operator, UK) twice, have onboarding emails sent, but not have the appointment in my account.
Used Edge, went through completely.
Can't guarantee it was Firefox/browser issues. But this is not that uncommon an occurrence.
I suspect it is the bank who are at fault.
jcattle
Just today Ryanair wouldnt let me in on Firefox. 403 with a cloudflare error.
But on chrome it went through without a hitch.
SoKamil
Do you have adblock by any chance?
dlcarrier
I've never had one tell me; they just don't work, or they get stuck in a loop until they consume all my RAM and the gecko engine crashes. That is, assuming they even show me the page, instead of telling me to go away because they they think I'm a bot.
dotancohen
A few years ago I was maintaining the website for a major brand whose products you probably use. To my horror the website did not support Firefox. I gave them a very minimal estimate on what it would cost to support Firefox along with the estimated percentage of Firefox users in their target market. They were not interested.
ricardobeat
YouTube is crippled in Firefox, has been for years. It doesn’t force you to use Chrome, just a little nudge
chatmasta
How so? I use Firefox for all leisure activities, including extensive YouTube usage, and have never noticed any issue. I’m running uBlock Origin and Sponsor Block. I’m logged into a dedicated Google account I made solely for browsing YouTube (so I can keep the viewing history without linking it too obviously to my main Google account).
amake
In what way is it crippled?
nonameiguess
Your experience may be different, but every time I hit the Cloudflare "checking if your connection is secure" turnstyle, it goes into an infinite loop on Firefox. It's the only reason I still have Chrome on any personal device. It may be tracker and privacy settings rather than just Firefox on its own, but I'm not going to run combinatorial experiments to figure out exactly what Cloudflare is looking for, especially since it's probably a moving target.
MarsIronPI
And honestly, I've only ever once encountered a website that required Widevine. And that site was a media site. So if you don't watch DRMed movies in your browser then you don't need Widevine in my experience.
saintfire
I've found widewine a blessing because news sites that autoplay trash seem to be the only group that uses it (other than paid media platforms like Netflix and Spotify).
The blessing is I can just reject it and it blocks all their videos from playing/downloading.
shevy-java
I actually ran into such issues, in particular with commercial websits. Some browsers I use do not work for my online transactions for instance - annoyingly the local bank I use for logging into my account as well. It is basically the bank hijacking my money and forcing me into using a specific browser (or, at the least, very few; they improved compatibility a bit in the last years, but there were more issues in the past here). It is just a reality of the situation that some websites don't work well on certain browsers.
dotancohen
Why don't you consider switching banks? In 2008 I had to switch bank for exactly this reason.
TheCoreh
To get to the point where these artificial gates substantially matter for interop, you've already cleared 99% of the hurdles, and you can get away with just spoofing the User Agent string most of the time.
Widevine is legitimately a “gate”, but realistically it only stops 4K playback on Netflix, Disney and a few other streaming sites. And it's not super relevant considering that Zen has gathered 10M users without it.
everdrive
Ladybird, at least initially, will be niche enough that I think this won't be a problem. It'll be tech enthusiasts who use multiple browsers. If it can get a foothold, then I think there will be many more bars to clear.
LeFantome
Quite recently, Ladybird started reporting itself as Chrome for exactly this reason.
port11
Hmm, I haven’t used a single website in a long time that forces a Chromium-based browser to operate. The only exception I know of is DocuSign requiring a Chrome extension. And, of course, plenty of websites are laggy on Safari.
Onavo
They can mock the User Agent for the purposes of compatibility testing. When you control the browser itself, nothing's impossible. (aside from DRM specific issues)
ekianjo
> DRM Widevine,
we have to thank tim berners lee for allowing this kind of bs in the first place
bitwize
It was either permit DRM, or cut off the web for all sorts of media.
RandomGerm4n
There would still be piracy sites. So their choice would be between everyone watching it for free or offering their service without drm.
ekianjo
It was a bad position for him to take.
dirasieb
the web was famously cut off for all sorts of media before DRM was permitted
redeeman
easy choice. also, thats just BS, remember how SOMEHOW the same was said for playback of music on computers, yet somehow a certain now-dead CEO was able to say "fuck you" and it happened anyway?
mtlynch
Worth noting that at this point, it's still somewhat trivial to find exploitable remote code execution bugs in Ladybird using AI tools.[0]
The userbase of Ladybug users is so small that it's probably not worth the attackers' time, but keep in mind that it's an enormous step down in security from the mainstream browsers who are actively searching for bugs using the latest tools and paying bug bounties on external reports.
sikozu
Ladybird is coming along so well. I am a long-term Firefox user and I'll definitely be an early adopter of Ladybird when it enters very early alpha and precompiled builds start being released.
cuu508
BTW if you want to kick the tires at the current stage, building it locally is easy, just a couple of commands to install dependencies and run the build script:
https://github.com/LadybirdBrowser/ladybird/blob/master/Docu...
DANmode
Mozilla needs a kick in the pants to say the least.
dlcarrier
They're a lost cause. It's been at least a decade since they've made a decision that wasn't the worst possible.
allusernamesare
It's pretty easy to compile yourself, especially if you ask Claude code to do it for you.
glitchcrab
I deposit for those who would rather ask a robot than do something simple themselves.
tomaskafka
I thinkk it's about time Ladybird got some official prebuilt binaries - I'd love to try it, but I'm not going to install its whole dev environment and build it from source.
fabrice_d
If you are interested in new browsers / web runtimes, Servo publishes binaries monthly: https://servo.org/download/
ramon156
They planned an alpha build in june :) so, just a bit longer!
aorth
> GTK4 / libadwaita frontend
Nice! Looks good. I prefer GTK UI/UX over Qt. Looking forward to seeing the development progress on that.
geophph
> strava.com : Login works now that Navigator.getBattery throws the spec-mandated error type instead of one of our own (#8770).
what’s Strava want with my battery level?
NBPEL
Most likely for generating unique fingerprint for tracking
yurishimo
Maybe it uses some that battery API as a heuristic for a lower-power version of the site? Or maybe they have a web-only version in developing markets? Low battery means it should query for your location less often to save battery?
Totally spitballing here. Strava being a website that requests battery does not seem wildly outlandish to me, albeit it is a bit suspicious in general.
einpoklum
> it uses some that battery API as a heuristic for a lower-power version of the site?
As a naive user I would expect websites to not be able to receive information about my battery state. With that information they can track my mobile phone usage pattern, and with some cross-referencing gain even more specific private information.
lukan
I think it is great that the API exists, but it is not great, that no permission from the user is needed to access it.
geophph
[dead]
nonameiguess
Strava's a route tracker. Assuming you can use it through the website, it probably controls how often it polls location, trading off accuracy for power consumption.
charcircuit
Bots trying to brute force accounts may not have the API implemented like a real device may.
fooqux
Sure, and my desktop computer just reports 100% battery level? Which can't be easily replicated by a static header in the bot?
This would be a silly thing to use to identify bots.
charcircuit
It's not silly if it works.
benchwright
I managed to build this the other day. Looking good!
As noted by other authors, there does seem to be a wide surface area for attacks so, security remediation does seem to be a top-of-queue thing to be handled.
All in all, keep up the good work!
tejohnso
Independence is great, but I'm curious about features. Will Ladybird have any built-in ad blocking like Brave? Useful tab management? Dark mode?
LeFantome
They block all ads in current builds. Probably mostly more performance and to create more consistency when testing a website (not having to worry about errors from lots of low quality JavaScript in the ads).
I think they have dark mode already.
worksonmine
I think plugins is the better solution, then you can't pay the browser to get your ads through.
dlcarrier
I really like what SerenityOS is going for, and hope they can maintain that focus in the Ladybird browser.
bennett_dev
AFAIK Ladybird is separated from SerenityOS completely now (https://hackaday.com/2024/07/02/fork-ladybird-browser-and-se...) so the Ladybird contributors can fully focus on it
LeFantome
I love SerenityOS too but it has totally lost momentum since Andreas left.
And ladybird does not even support SerenityOS anymore.
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It looks like this is getting pretty usable!
This post reminded me of gaming emulator updates that I also love to read. "Fixed X bug to make Y behave correctly, which means game Z works now." (One of the things they fixed was CSS Doom, so I guess there is some legitimate overlap to gaming at any rate.)