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comrade1234
rmind
Ironically enough, Vilnius is now a very beautiful, safe and high quality of life city that is a better place to live than, probably, quite a lot of American cities..
How times have changed..
ceejayoz
When I was a kid, "starving children in Ethiopia" was a reason to eat your whole dinner. My formerly Swiss grandma once said "starving children in Europe" and I was very thrown for a moment.
hellcow
I'm moving from California to Portugal this week. I get to retire much earlier with low-cost healthcare and a cost of living lower relative to CA, and the Portuguese people I've met have all been wonderful. The food is great too!
I'd rather be on the side that supports Ukraine, clean energy, and stable trade agreements. I don't feel safe in the US anymore.
NalNezumi
I know a guy that worked for good UK salary (fintech) that moved to Portugal(Lisbon) almost a decade ago. It seems to be a lovely place, he also happily tell me how much he manage to save and how early he will be able to retire. He got many friends there too, but mostly expats.
If I'm to believe my Portuguese friends however, the extreme influx of digital nomad types have really changed Lisbon. There's almost no authentic Portuguese thing there anymore, just thing LARPING as it. The rent is too high for any local young Portuguese to pay for, while the landlords are super happy for these influx of wealthy expats, so the young either move out of the city or move all together.
In a very utopia like set up, there's something depressing about that reality.
When I asked about to my expat friend living there, he acknowledged it, shrugged, and said "don't hate the playa, hate the game".
Anyway, enjoy the game!
hellcow
I'm not moving to Lisbon, but my experience in that city aligns with your friends'.
Other cities offer much better value for money and hold a lot more of the Portuguese culture intact. There are beautiful cities and towns all throughout the country.
senordevnyc
I heard something similar from residents of Lisbon when I visited, but it was always framed in terms of tourism, Airbnb, etc, not digital nomads or expats. And to the extent it is expats, my guess is probably more British than American.
markoman
Couldn't agree more. If you have any pointers (to web sites) that were helpful to you as you were making your decision or preparations, please do post them.
Also, did you consider any other countries that you later struck from your list?
hellcow
I used an immigration service to help me through the process. Alongside that I spent several months learning the language then weeks traveling through PT before making the decision.
You can do the immigration process yourself, but it's a long process with a lot of i's to dot and t's to cross. It was helpful to have experts guiding me through the process. Learning the language also helped a ton. The Portuguese in cities all speak English extremely well, but they really embrace you when they see you putting in some effort to speak Portuguese. I learned with Pimsleur for native pronunciation and Anki frequency vocabulary decks. I had some background with Spanish, so it was easier for me to learn Portuguese than starting from zero.
I also considered Uruguay and Malta but preferred the safety of Portugal and its bigger size.
kyleee
Many of us hate you behind the facade though because you are driving up costs so wildly
luckys
Sure, seeing well-to-do foreigners live an easy life when one struggles in one's own country can feel bitter but the issues in Portugal are structural and predate the 1926 dictatorship. Have you noticed the same handful of families have glided gracefully through the different political regimes? This is not a culture that fosters entrepeneurship or thinking outside the box, and being physically on the tail of Europe does not help. Corruption is endemic and considered part of everyday life, as is "it matters who you know to get ahead." People have become subjugated by this environment to the point they might not even consider it can change.
giardini
Many of us love you behind the facade though because you are paying is so well for our services!8-))
schnitzelstoat
Are you going to have a Portuguese salary or an American one?
hellcow
I'm retiring alongside the move, so neither. I'll still be working on projects and companies but money doesn't factor into what I choose to work on.
oxag3n
My uncle moved from Germany to Portugal for the same reason. He loves it and the main pain point is healthcare - low-cost, but in his 70s he travels back to Germany for health issues due to quality. It's unpopular opinion in Portugal and everyone will tell you how nice the hospitals are, zero wait times and no hidden expenses. May be my uncle was unlucky, but minor heart issue wasn't properly diagnosed for about a year there, and required a single visit in Germany to get it under control.
keiferski
I think this is probably useless information considering that legal restrictions largely limit the ability of people to move from one to the other.
Speaking as an American that “accidentally” moved to the EU a decade ago, my impression is still that ambitious EU citizens, particularly those in tech or finance, would move to the US in a second if it was possible to.
That said, I don’t personally plan on moving back anytime soon, although I do miss certain aspects of the American identity and experience constantly.
Gud
Define “ambitious”. I consider myself extremely ambitious, and what you are saying may have been true 20 years ago, I doubt it’s the case today.
FWIW I’m from Sweden but live in Switzerland. I work all over the world(currently in Rotterdam).
There is no way I would move to the dysfunction across the Atlantic.
keiferski
Like I said, working in tech or finance, especially company founders.
The amount of capital available and the size of the American market dwarfs anywhere in the EU.
schnitzelstoat
Yeah, given that it's much easier to get a visa to work in the EU (albeit still not easy) than in the US, the default position ceteris paribus would be that more people would move from the US to Europe than vice versa.
The fact that wasn't the case before just goes to show how big an impact the economic disparity has.
DougN7
What aspects and experiences do you miss? Which country did you move to? I know I romanticize moving to Europe so would love to hear some balance.
keiferski
Too many things to fit in a HN comment, but basically I miss the optimism and can-do attitude of Americans, as well as the general future-orientation of the culture. Europeans generally situate themselves in terms of the past and aim at a comfortable, quality life. America on the other hand is more of a wildcard with space for crazy ideas.
Being an entrepreneur with a dream or a freelancer, for example, is infinitely more socially acceptable in America than in Europe.
This is a nerdy reference to make, but I’ve always been fascinated with the idea of the Sprawl in William Gibson’s trilogy. There is something very American about it (and it’s situated in America) but that kind of chaotic dynamic culture-mixing space could never really happen in Europe.
I moved to Central Europe btw, but I’ve spent a lot of time in France and Germany as well.
JKCalhoun
For myself (American), I think I would miss the natural wonders and open road. But I really enjoy roadtripping.
lava_pidgeon
If you look up the graph this is a 20 years old trend .
One thinks of course about Eastern Europe which had a decent economic growth. Compare to many American HN Readers thinking, "Europe" in General tried to make a place better for living. What it means is of course very dependent on person, but consider thinks like better health care, no war (that's the EU for), better indro, but also economics but to certain percentage it worked out!
Though I can't say about American but health care and guns are still a problem. Compare to Europe which hadn't a start up 20 years ago and "Europe" tries to fix t.
giardini
lava_pidgeon says >"Though I can't say about American but health care and guns are still a problem. Compare to Europe which hadn't a start up 20 years ago and "Europe" tries to fix t."<
What? health care is great in Europe and, if you want a gun, just register as a "hunter" in whatever country and take to Joe Biden's advice:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-mztxHgYQo
Non-music(but less fun) version:
https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/relatedvideo?q=joe+bid...
Stay on for timely warnings how "Americans could be killed by a drone."
aqme28
I moved to Berlin a few years ago. Anecdotally, my friends and family back home are jealous.
hylaride
I am jealous of the lifestyle of most of Europe, but not the rigid labour markets and lower salaries. I wish we had more people-oriented cities in North America, though. I don't want to be anti-automobile, but the hostility to the "15 minute city" idea was quite depressing to me.
chneu
My good friends moved to Germany before they had their kid. They are extremely happy with their decision.
Everyone I'm aware of who moved because of Trump/Republicans are happy with their choice.
haght
[dead]
garbawarb
Is a green card the equivalent to a first time residence permit in Europe? It's notoriously hard to get a green card: it'll take 3 years for a normal skilled worker who's already in the US and that's assuming nothing goes wrong in the process, and something always does. Plus many visa categories don't even have a path to a green card. "Long term stay visas issued" might be a better comparison.
rmind
While each EU country has its own immigration rules, there is an EU-level route for the highly skilled workers, called the EU Blue Card:
* https://home-affairs.ec.europa.eu/policies/migration-and-asy... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Card_(European_Union)
piva00
Each EU country has its own rules about immigration.
A green card is probably equivalent to a permanent residence permit, those vary quite a bit between countries, and skills. Some countries might give a permanent residence in as few as 3 years, I believe quite a few have the 4 years threshold. Depending on what skills you have or how much you invest in the country you are moving to this timeline also shortens.
agentcoops
Generally continental Europe -- except the Scandinavian countries -- makes it relatively easy to get long-term residency and even a passport. The UK is considerably more difficult, but very easy to work in for an extended period of time (intra-company transfer visas etc).
piva00
Scandinavia had Sweden until yesterday's vote in Riksdagen, I moved here 10+ years ago, got my permanent residence after 4 years, citizenship after 5.
Rules have been changed now, citizenship in 8 years will become law on June 6th, also requiring language and cultural tests which weren't required before.
Continental Europe used to vary, Germany was stricter with 8 years to citizenship but permanent residence would vary depending on work skill and language skills.
rmind
Can you give some specific examples? I would say that, unless you have some additional qualifications (European ancestors, EU spouse and similar), the majority of EU countries actually don't make it that easy. Of course, it depends on your definition of "relatively easy".
aqme28
It's not that hard to get a temporary residence permit somewhere in the EU if you're well-employed. Every country has its own rules and some are more lax than others, but there are plenty of e.g. "tech worker" visas you can get. You often don't need a job to officially sponsor you.
comrade1234
Just depends where and where you're from. Even though it's the EU each country has its own rules.
sidewndr46
Can't you basically buy citizenship through "investment" in one of the countries?
geremiiah
If you're rich enough, you can buy a small local business, like a local pizzeria, and hire x amount of people or invest x amount of money and you get a permanent residence visa through investment. This path is available in pretty much countries including the US.
comrade1234
I think more than one. I think Portugal's program is over but you can still do it in others (Greece? Romania? I can't remember). You can do it in the USA too.
CGamesPlay
Many countries, this is often called a golden visa (term predates the current US president).
comrade1234
Surprisingly, the vote on limiting Switzerland's population to 10 million may actually pass. Usually votes for things that will hurt the economy don't come close to passing but right now the limit is a few percent ahead.
HPsquared
"A good economy" means different things to different people.
Expensive houses and low wages, vs appreciating assets and low labour costs.
sidewndr46
how would that even work? mandatory contraception or something?
comrade1234
If the population hits 10 million they would try to limit the freedom of movement agreement with the eu, which means they would lose free trade with the eu. Kind of like brexit.
fainpul
The birth rate in Switzerland (just as in many highly developed countries) is already way below 2.1 children per woman, which would be required to sustain the population. Any population growth comes from immigrants. Xenophobic people are scared by that.
Gud
I am an immigrant to Switzerland.
Switzerland has undergone an enormous transformation in just a few decades due to immigration. You don’t have to be “xenophobic” to be sceptical of this massive change.
senordevnyc
Sorry, but it’s not xenophobic to care about your culture and not want it to shift too fast. The left’s inability to grasp this is part of why right populism has taken hold all over the world over the last decade.
cybrox
It's just a buzzword to say limit immigration with rising population.
I'll leave out my opinion on the topic but Switzerland has become noticeably more crowded in the last 20 years.
sidewndr46
I was surprised to learn that Switzerland's population is still that small.
bakies
Your opinion is showing
GeoAtreides
>the vote on limiting Switzerland's population to 10 million
google searches 10 minutes after it passes: what is EU guillotine clause
peterfirefly
Switzerland has treaties with the EU. The EU would prefer a single treaty, Switzerland prefers lots of piecemeal treaties.
Current political climate in Switzerland is a bit like Brexit before Brexit: lots of populist blathering about how the EU exploits Switzerland so there are lots of votes in being anti-EU and in demanding "fair" deals ("fair" always means "more for me, less for you").
These treaties are currently being renegotiated -- I think some of them technically expired but both sides pretend they are still valid during the negotiations.
There are forces in Switzerland that would like to break one or more of the treaties and keep the others.
The EU won't like that so we got guillotine clauses = if one treaty is no longer valid, none of them are valid, to prevent the Swiss from playing funny games.
One of the Swiss complaints is fair: they provide roads for lots and lots of EU transit traffic.
benhurmarcel
> they provide roads for lots and lots of EU transit traffic
Not for free though
oxag3n
Doesn't include another large group - repatriating Europeans.
Our friends went back to Germany last year after 20 years in USA (permanent residents, didn't naturalize).
My family plans similar move as well in a few years, mostly blocked by my postgraduate program and exact location to return to. There are other scenarios where we'd move right away, like if my spouse gets laid off.
queenkjuul
Yeah my friends just moved back to Belgium after ten years here
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sublimefire
IMO metrics are not well represented when looking into chart, eg european resident/student permits are not the same as green cards, they had to include students in us as well. another thing is the use of eu+uk+switzerland would it not be better to use eea instead (think about iceland and norway)?
it is an interesting stat, but it might be good to understand the diff among US folks getting passports vs residence permits vs studying
amarcheschi
The community note gives more information on the comparison
fragmede
> The chart compares permanent green cards issued to Europeans moving to the US with first-time residence permits (often temporary, for work/study) issued to Americans moving to the EU, which are not equivalent metrics.
For those that don't have Twitter.
shaky-carrousel
A classic example of mistaking the finger for the moon. There's a trend there, no matter what.
schnitzelstoat
If they can work remotely and keep their American salaries then they can live like Emperors here.
If not, I imagine they will get tired of the low salaries and high taxes and move back to the US. It might be better here for artist types etc. who can benefit more from the social welfare systems than they have to pay in. But for engineers, it makes little sense - you are the one who has to pay for the party.
chneu
Yes and no. American salaries are great but our cost of living is insane. The amount of time wasted in the US doing basic stuff also can't be discounted. Our cost of healthcare adds up, as does the cost of everything here.
I think this data shows that a lot of Americans are waking up to our brand of "freedom" being bullshit. The American dream is a bit of a myth nowadays.
Americans lie to ourselves. If one isn't wealthy in the US, think top 15%, you're better off living outside the US. But Americans are "not yet billionaires" so most of us don't realize this. Our media pumps our hubris and egos using "freedom" and nationalism. Most Americans never travel outside of the US and believe our lives here are infinitely better than anything else in the world. It's something I see constantly when I talk international stuff with rural Americans(and the suburban cosplayer), an absolute fantasy version of the world.
keiferski
Cost of living in comparable EU cities is very high as well, except salaries aren’t really correspondingly higher.
The American dream is and has always been kind of a national myth but honestly if you limit it to purely making a lot of money by working hard, I think it’s still quite true, and the best place in the world to do so.
markoman
When you say that EU cost of living is comparable, are you taking into consideration the cost of health and higher education? In the U.S., if you're not currently priced out on those two points, just give it time & you will be!
The U.S. isn't the shining-city-on-the-hill beacon it once was. I think that's pretty clear.
queenkjuul
> if you limit it to purely making a lot of money by working hard, I think it’s still quite true,
Wholeheartedly disagree. I see countless hard workers struggling immensely to get by here. Costs and inflation have spiralled the last 5 years while healthcare and education have been pricing out the middle class for over a decade. The job market is awful and getting worse by the day.
_DeadFred_
I mean the America dream was real in the past to a lot of immigrant/recent immigrant Americans. It's cool that Europe has caught up. It's amazing that China has lifted their people up.
Let's continue improving quality of life for everyone. Europe doing better/being a viable alternative doesn't necessarily mean the USA is all bs. I'm pretty sure every country's people are more comfortable of how their country lives than foreign countries. Not sure why rural American's have a special carveout on that take.
vrganj
As an engineer that moved to Europe - everyone benefits from the social welfare system.
I benefit by not having to worry about the homeless druggie assaulting me and on a more values-based level, by not feeling like shit for living like a king while the druggie has to be homeless.
The taxes are a membership fee for living in a society that isn't permeated with cruelty and violence.
Plus, they pay for stuff like working public transport etc as well.
polishdude20
I mean, the studies are still out in the world and homeless. Moving to another country doesn't change that.
vrganj
Moving to another country where drug addicts get help instead of being left to fend for themselves and paying my taxes there is a way to vote with my wallet on the sort of system I'd like to see - namely, one of compassion.
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I'm American and moved to Europe (Switzerland) 17-years ago. Sometimes I laugh to myself when I think how whatmy long-dead immigrant grandfather (from Vilnius to Midwest USA) would think of my reverse move.
Growing up we always thought my grandparents were the weirdest people. They roasted and ate whole chickens, not cut up chicken parts from the grocery store. They drank tea and ate weird Russian tea cake cookies. They made their own sausage. They hunted ducks and deer. They ate raw beef.
Since moving to Europe I buy a lot of my food from neighborhood farms, roast whole chickens, make tartare, make cheese and sausage... hunting and fishing isn't so easy here though - I can do that when I visit relatives in the USA though.