Get the top HN stories in your inbox every day.
yason
strcat
GrapheneOS has an OEM partnership with Motorola where they're working on improving their devices to meet our requirements because we won't lower our standards for updates and security features. A lot of work needs to be done for each supported device. There's a massive amount of work bringing the security-oriented, production-quality hardware memory tagging integration from Tensor to Snapdragon. We're working with Motorola and Qualcomm on it. If we simply ported it to many insecure devices we'd need have the time to work on features like this or the power to get an OEM and SoC vendor to work with us on it.
GrapheneOS has Contact Scopes and Storage Scopes for pretending all of the contacts, media and storage permissions are granted with the app unable to access any additional user data without the user explicitly adding it on a case-by-case basis. Unlike the recent iOS feature, apps can't see the Contacts permission group isn't granted and it supports giving less data than the whole contact too. It also supports labels for groups of contacts shared between apps.
Mock Location is a standard Android feature. We're working on a per-app Location Scopes replacement. We're also working on Camera Scopes and Microphone Scopes. We plan to continue down that road covering less major permissions too.
Sandboxed Google Play already works near perfectly with close to 100% app compatibility. It's only apps disallowing using a non-stock OS via the Play Integrity API or to a lesser extent certain other methods which aren't compatible. McDonalds is a major example. X forbids password login but you can use Vanadium to login with a passkey and then use that in the app. ~10% of banking apps do it but not most. We've convinced multiple banks to permit GrapheneOS, and that's going to become MUCH easier now.
jonpurdy
This is very useful context. Especially around Contact Scopes etc. It's never made sense to me that iOS shares if the user is choosing to not share their contacts.
Apple seems to basically do privacy-related things to an 80% level but not bothering with getting it totally correct. This makes business sense because the extra 20% is way more difficult, but it's great to see GrapheneOS going all the way.
ibejoeb
> We've convinced multiple banks to permit GrapheneOS, and that's going to become MUCH easier now.
I did not know that. That is very interesting.
On that topic, an honest question: what is the killer feature of banking apps that everyone is so hot on? Are we talking like retail banking or money transmitters? I am not using any bespoke banking apps, and I don't feel like I'm missing out, but maybe I just don't know what I'm missing.
What does detract from my GrapheneOS experience is the keyboard. It's just ok. I need swipe typing though, and I haven't found anything even close to gboard glide.
patrakov
We are talking about banking and pseudo-banking apps with the following typical features:
* A wallet for QR-code based payments backed by a national standard for their content and by the money in your bank account;
* A software implementation of an NFC-enabled credit or debit card, or sometimes with a magnetic strip emulation in addition to that;
* An interface to transfer money to other bank accounts in the same country or abroad, or to convert between local and foreign currency if you have a foreign currency bank account;
* A way to pay common utility bills - in some cases, by scanning the QR code on the bill;
* A way to manage banking and investment accounts - e.g., if you want an extra savings account in Japanese yen with a new debit card attached to it, tap a few times and it's there;
* A chat with bank representatives - for example, to provide supporting documents by photographing them, without ever visiting the bank;
* A second factor (as in 2FA) to approve money transfers initiated from the desktop web browser, meeting the bank standards where TOTP can't meet them (e.g., due to the legal requirement to say what transaction the code is for).
The real problem is that many banks are deprecating their browser-based interfaces and are turning app-only.
konform
> I need swipe typing though, and I haven't found anything even close to gboard glide.
https://f-droid.org/packages/helium314.keyboard/
HeliBoard is currently asking people to volunteer swipe data so they can further improve on free and open alternative for swipe keyboard. Please consider helping out!
https://github.com/Helium314/HeliBoard/wiki/Tutorial:-How-to...
infogulch
The FUTO keyboard is pretty good. All offline, customizable design, good speech recognition, tolerable swipe typing. It's published under a distinct opensource-ish license if you care about that. It's technically a paid app but with an indefinite trial period and and a license checking scheme based on human trust (click the 'yes I bought it' button and it accepts). Worth $5 imo, I bought additional copies for friends and family too.
aceazzameen
For the keyboard I recently discovered HeliBoard. You have to add a gboard's library to enable glide typing, but so far I really like it.
NoboruWataya
> On that topic, an honest question: what is the killer feature of banking apps that everyone is so hot on? Are we talking like retail banking or money transmitters? I am not using any bespoke banking apps, and I don't feel like I'm missing out, but maybe I just don't know what I'm missing.
For me, the killer "feature" is that I need to generate an auth code on my bank's app to be able to log in to my account and make transfers via my browser (or I can use the app directly). In other words, it's considerably more difficult to actually do (retail) banking without my bank's app.
throwway120385
My bank's killer feature is that they're app-first and web-first because they only have one physical branch in San Antonio. They were one of the first banks in the nation to allow you to electronically represent checks for deposit, and they did that first through their web app and then later through their mobile app.
john01dav
What, exactly, is sandboxed Google play prevented from accessing? Can I feed it a fake location or disable location access? Is it prevented from running in the background 24/7? Can I force it and just it through a VPN? Or is it just blocked from accessing apps and files that aren't in the sandbox? There are many such questions and all could be considered "sandbox".
Itoldmyselfso
Sandboxed Google Play receives no special access at all, so you can deny it all permissions if you want, but you should grant network (and maybe notifications) permission for it to actually function.
birdsongs
In what ways has the pursuit of perfection harmed the good in their development? (Your words, I don't agree.)
Graphene does everything you're asking, except for the niche fixed location feature you specifically want, which you're welcome to request, or just implement yourself and make a PR.
I'm going to be a bit snarky here, but I always find the entitlement around features in open source software baffling. This isn't a multi billion dollar corporation selling you something. It's enthusiasts making you something (honestly, incredible), for free, in their spare time, outside of their daily jobs. They're doing their absolute best here.
strcat
Our approach is why we have a partnership with Motorola where we're working with Motorola and Qualcomm on improving security of the devices to meet our requirements. It takes longer to get things done the way we want but that's part of the purpose of GrapheneOS. For example, it took us longer to have our own network-based location and geocoding but now we have great implementations of both. Our network-based location currently closely matches iOS but is going to have full offline support developed for it. We're working on our own local model text-to-speech at the moment too, although our focus is currently Android 16 QPR3 related work as a higher priority which delayed it. We do plan to overhaul or replace all the legacy AOSP apps, but our priority has been working on things people can't simply replace by installing more apps.
CivBase
> In what ways has the pursuit of perfection harmed the good in their development?
Their lack of device support means I am still running Google's Android and will continue to be until a GraphineOS-supported device that meets my needs becomes available. This means I'm not just lacking in security, but I'm also stuck with Google and all of their anti-consumer practices.
Running GraphineOS without all the security features they want would be better for me than what I currently have.
palata
When the complaint people have about a product is "I can't use it and I really wish I could", I feel like it's a good problem :-).
> Running GraphineOS without all the security features they want would be better for me than what I currently have.
But then it would be like running LineageOS, which is a great (but different) project. Why not using LineageOS?
subscribed
And this is somehow harming who?
You're free to fork it to adapt it to your device.
The expectation that the entire project brand must be diluted (by lowering the security) to support you specifically, or you feel wronged, is a little, my apologies -- absurd.
undefined
undefined
aaron_m04
Yes, but do these enthusiasts care at all if it meets some need for the users? I suspect that they do.
And how can they find out how well it meets that need other than receiving (respectful!) feedback?
birdsongs
I don't follow. The poster above my comment complained that graphene os was lacking a list of features is already has, so I corrected that.
> Yes, but do these enthusiasts care at all if it meets some need for the users? ... And how can they find out how well it meets that need other than receiving (respectful!) feedback?
What makes you think they don't? Can you point to any instances of them ignoring the community at large?
You can open an issue in any of the open source repositories and request a feature. Others can vote and comment on it. Or you can discuss it in the very lively forum. All methods used to steer the project towards the desires of the users.
In case you can't find them: https://github.com/GrapheneOS https://discuss.grapheneos.org/
This whole conversation just feels weird and specious to me.
the_real_cher
I want them to implement a feature where the phone prints money.
doug-moen
The ability to fake the location on a per-app basis is called "location scopes". It is being worked on, as mentioned here:
https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/27926-per-profile-location-...
Currently there is a Mock Location feature, but it is globally scoped and not what you asked for.
II2II
> GrapheneOS always strikes me as "perfect is the enemy of good".
GrapheneOS, as it ships, is rather bleak but you also need to consider that it is addressing the concerns of a very broad audience. That ranges from people who want to completely get rid of data leaking apps to those who want the apps but expect them to be sandboxed. Shipping two different versions won't really help them. It would only make more work on their end, with the results only reflecting two extremes. You are going to have some people willing to put up with some apps, but not others. You are going to have some people wanting some of those apps feeding fake data, but not others.
It's probably best to think of GrapheneOS as a base system that you build up to serve your personal needs, rather than thinking of them shipping it in a "perfect" state. While a handful of people will be happy with it in its default state, many will install something like F-Droid along with a collection of privacy preserving apps. Many others will install the Google Play Store along with a personally curated list of apps that reflect their needs, providing or denying access to their data as they see fit.
I believe the "build up" approach is the only viable way to handle this situation since we are talking about a group of users who are actively seeking out a third-party OS since they are particular about their needs. This isn't the typical consumer who will (gleefully or begrudgingly) put up with whatever the device vendor feeds them.
strcat
Our approach is why we have a partnership with Motorola where we're working with Motorola and Qualcomm on improving security of the devices to meet our requirements. It takes longer to get things done the way we want but that's part of the purpose of GrapheneOS. For example, it took us longer to have our own network-based location and geocoding but now we have great implementations of both. Our network-based location currently closely matches iOS but is going to have full offline support developed for it. We're working on our own local model text-to-speech at the moment too, although our focus is currently Android 16 QPR3 related work as a higher priority which delayed it. We do plan to overhaul or replace all the legacy AOSP apps, but our priority has been working on things people can't simply replace by installing more apps.
throawayonthe
i don't understand, doesn't that make graphene the opposite of what that saying refers to? it's a real life project that has almost all of the features you mention while not being lagged down by pursuit of perfectionism?
niam
That relates more to the public rhetoric surrounding Graphene than with how the OS itself operates imo. It's pretty practical and enables (or allows you to enable) everything that a typical Android does, except where Google Play Integrity checks fail, which is not in Graphene's control (e.g Google Wallet payments).
People bill it as making a ton of usability compromises in the name of security, but that doesn't match my experience. The only redeeming observation is that your phone _does_ lean towards secure-er and ungoogled defaults, which _does_ break functionality that a lot of people expect to "just work" OOTB. But it's trivial to restore it, and the upfront effort getting things to work is amortized over the lifetime of the device. It's maybe an hour's worth of work.
The counterfactual world where users need to forumcrawl how to get to secure/private defaults seems worse to me. By contrast, it's pretty easy to recognize when an app isn't working.
II2II
I agree with your post, but I wanted to point out one thing:
> People bill it as making a ton of usability compromises in the name of security, but that doesn't match my experience.
When you are talking about something like GrapheneOS, most of the people who are talking about usability compromises aren't worth listening to since they are looking for something that is pretty much the exact opposite of what GrapheneOS is trying to provide. While there are likely some legitimate criticisms in the mix, the compromises required for "works by default, for everyone" are pretty much the opposite of what GrapheneOS is.
strcat
It's worth noting tap-to-pay is available via Curve Pay and other options in Europe. We intend to get the Google Pay issue resolved.
carpenecopinum
I mean, GrapheneOS hits at least 2/3 of your demands pretty well. The Play services are "regular" apps with permissions that you can take away. For contacts and files you get "scopes", i.e. you decide what the app can see, while the app is left to believe that it can see everything there is.
That said, I think the marketing of GrapheneOS could be better. Every introduction of GrapheneOS I've seen paints the image of Graphene being "Absolute security, no compromises", whereas in reality GrapheneOS is the most "Things need to work, no compromises. Then make the rest as safe as possible" custom ROM that I've used thus far (in particular regarding them allowing you to install Google Play, rather than using MicroG).
yason
I would certainly be using GrapheneOS if only I could get one to run on something else than a Pixel.
I have a perfectly good phone whose bootloader can be unlocked and I can install LineageOS or other AOSP installations there but all I'm aware of and I've researched come short on the sandboxing and permissions. I'd be willing to use GrapheneOS without support for specific security hardware (if only they supported that configuration) just for the features mentioned but Pixel phones are just too expensive. I've always been more than happy with a decent low-tier phone and I don't see a technical reason to change that. Nothing wrong with my phone.
palata
> I would certainly be using GrapheneOS if only I could get one to run on something else than a Pixel.
But the whole idea of GrapheneOS is the reason why it (currently) only runs on Pixels. On other phones you can run anything based on LineageOS...
I don't want GrapheneOS to compromise on that: if I didn't care about it, I would use any other alternative. To me it's a bit like saying "I would be using Linux if it was a lot more like Windows" (that's something I often understand when Windows users explain what it would take for them to use Linux). But I, as a Linux user, really don't want Linux to look a lot more like Windows.
jasonvorhe
Pixel A's are quite affordable. GrapheneOS is open source so if there was a need, people could get it to run on insecure devices that aren't Pixels. Expecting that to be done by GrapheneOS developers who care about security just seems weird.
glenneroo
FTFA: it will run on upcoming Motorola devices as well.
opan
I'm personally happy with LineageOS on OnePlus stuff, but have you considered getting a Pixel that's 2 gens or so old from eBay? I find old flagships drop in price pretty quick and are often a better deal than a new low-end phone.
strcat
Mock Location exists but our Location Scopes feature will largely replace it for non-development use. Camera, Microphone and other scopes features will be provided too. We haven't fully fleshed out what the ones for other permission groups such as Phone will look like yet but it's planned.
gvurrdon
Would there be any means of preventing apps from seeing one's phone number, IMEI etc.?
aaravchen
I have to say up front, that I think GrapheneOS in its most locked down mode needs to exist. There are important audiences for which most nation state actors and their related corporate entities are real threats (e.g. journalists). That said, I don't think the majority of users want or need that level of lockdown.
I do agree with the OP somewhat. While GrapheneOS has a hard job with too much to do and too few resources, they also take a very all-or-nothing stance when it comes to real world practicalities for the average user. Specifically: they're all or nothing on app stores and Google.
For some reason some of the key developers seem to constantly bash every "store" except Accrescent, ignoring the fact that Accresent is missing the key feature of telling you what you're even installing (which fails security 101: "you're only secure if you're usable and secure"). It's a very all or nothing viewpoint. No there is no secure app "store". None. Every one of them has security issues in one way or another. But short of an ultra locked down burner device for national secrets (a real use case in fact), users need to be able to get apps. The only "acceptable" solution seems to be to use the (patched) official Google Play Store. Which brings me to the second all-or-nothing area.
Google is the single biggest threat actor for most users. They control the upstream AOSP, so you start with constant attempts to compromise your supply chain in nefarious ways. They're one of the key gateways to the Internet, and they run the world's largest surveillance network (by a factor of many thousands). They're the very reason most users come to GrapheneOS in the first place. Every one of Googles apps is, or can safely be assumed to be, malware to violate your privacy as much as it can, and may incidentally provide some functionality. GrapheneOS has done well to replace many of the OS-baked in functionality that normally uses Google with alternatives, but is very adamant that they will not try to support allowing non-Google-signed apps in place of Google signed ones for any purpose. While I understand it ensures the AOSP feature of verifying against a trusted source, Google itself is not inf act a trusted source. It won't try and mine crypto on your device or use the passwords and wallet keys it steals to drain your accounts or steal your identity, but it will almost always cooperate with authoritarian nation states to install targeted surveillance tools on your devices instead of the "real" apps, and track all data it can possibly get access to. Sandboxing the system apps helps a lot, but as we know from Stock Android devices, that's not sufficient to completely protect systems from known malicious apps. The counterpoint is always "then don't install any Google apps". Great, I'd love to. But I live in the real world where Google controls most of the electronic world, and everyone else has mandates Google usage. I need to control my level of exposure for my personal usage requirements and threat model, and neither 0 or 100 are feasible options. Just like almost all users.
I definitely understand from a practical sense that GrapheneOS doesn't have the resources to supply de-Googled version of Google Maps (unfortunately the only map navigation that works in most of the US still), or implement and maintain a rework of the binder and intents system to allow custom per-app filtering of all IPC. But I don't hear about the practicalities and maintenance costs (especially for complex drive-by contributions), or risks of accidental misuse causing severely degraded security. I only hear "that's not secure" (which is often incorrect for the actual user's threat model) as the reason something won't be supported, pursued, or allowed to be contributed.
fluffypony
I don't want to gush about this too much, but it's SUCH a big deal. Graphene has languished with hardware support for so long - they basically only had Pixel devices as first-class citizens, which are not bad devices per se, but it's hard when you're spending most of your time doing something without the manufacturer's support.
There is a very real possibility that we end up with devices that can play modern mobile games at high frame rates on a secure, privacy-focused mobile OS, which is a huge step towards general adoption of something like this as a daily driver.
bubblethink
This is such a strange comment that is full of contradictions. Pixels are supported because the manufacturer supports alternate OSes. I don't get what languishing means here. Pixel hardware lags behind the latest Snapdragon hardware, but it's not something that average people know or care about. So, you can gush all you want, but I don't see why it's a big deal. It's great that they found an OEM and it's great for the overall health of the project, but not because of gaming or the latest Snapdragon.
gchamonlive
Does pixel support alternate OSes or it just doesn't get in the way of custom firmware developers?
And for the gaming aspect, there is a huge market for mobile gaming, specially in Asia, so having a manufacturer like Motorola adopting GrapheneOS as a first class citizen will improve the chances that high performance applications will have better performance in such OSes which is a big win.
ysnp
The Google Pixel has first-class support for alternate OSes (not custom firmware like a Chromebook). The OEM has to go out of their way to support avb_custom_key as mentioned in https://android.googlesource.com/platform/external/avb/+/mas... and I believe the GrapheneOS founder strcat was heavily involved in helping Google design this feature and flow for Android Verified Boot.
throawayonthe
i mean, that sounds like a subjective distinction, but it lets you unlock the bootloader and then re-lock it with your own keys so eh..?
t0bia_s
Lets hope those Motorola devices will be smaller then current Pixels.
ysnp
Since ~2023 all Motorola phones with Snapdragon SoCs (the ones most likely to support MTE as needed by GrapheneOS first) have been larger or equal to 6.5" screens.
user2722
I do hope however having a Snapdragon device will be beneficial to having postmarketOS support.
For now having Android-type OS on a daily driver is a must, but for older devices (thinking of 10 years time) I'd like to explore an OS which doesn't depend of Google open-source drops and delayed security open-source drops, which is the situation for ROMs without an ODM partner.
bubblethink
Do you mean to say that postmarketOS is somehow better on non Pixel devices? I would assume that Pixels are closest to upstream and have the longest software support life in Android world.
monegator
"general" people really play actual games on phones? I thought the general public at most played with time waster freemium games
archievillain
I wouldn't consider gachas to be "actual games" (sue me), but yeah, they do tend to have way more complex gameplay and graphics than the timewaster freemium games of yore. Genshin Impact is essentially a single-player MMO, it has an open world and lots of characters and different weapons etc etc.
monegator
still wouldn't bet the general phone audience find those games to be the the deciding factor in a phone
undefined
Markoff
it's quite a big deal Motorola will have officialy devices with unlockable bootloader now that Samsung is ditching it and Xiaomi is making unlocking almost impossible, Sony reintroduced it but has probably the worst VFM in the market, so having Motorola with pretty good VFM (better than Pixel outside US) is big news, though they don't really make smaller phones and I'm worried about camera quality or gcam stability
kace91
The key enabler is the camera. Manage a flagship level result in a Motorola, that’s the main reason people pay for High end devices nowadays.
I’m seeing enthusiasts go out of their way to get vivos and xiaomis now that they are surpassing the western counterparts based solely on that.
I think it’s doable, pixels did it with meh hardware for years. But I’m not sure if there’s enough overlap between people who care about selfie quality and open source enthusiasts.
strcat
Motorola Signature and Motorola Razr Fold are ranked above the Pixel 10 Pro on https://www.dxomark.com/smartphones/. Pixels have fantastic camera hardware and software which is fully functional on GrapheneOS which isn't something we need to lose on a Motorola flagship. There will be much better CPU and GPU performance via Snapdragon too. The compromises are mostly in terms of getting some security improvements while losing others but we'll still be able to meet all of our official security requirements.
kace91
I haven’t been able to see actual results that match those tests in the Motorolas sadly. Maybe it’s more accurate in technical terms but I haven’t found good results in practice.
>Pixels have fantastic camera hardware and software which is fully functional on GrapheneOS which isn't something we need to lose on a Motorola flagship.
This is very interesting to me! Does graphene OS manage to keep google’s processing? How does that work?
worksonmine
> There is a very real possibility that we end up with devices that can play modern mobile games at high frame rates on a secure, privacy-focused mobile OS, which is a huge step towards general adoption of something like this as a daily driver.
This might be true, but the priorities are depressing.
thot_experiment
I'm not holding my breath but it would be amazing to have root and be able to tap to pay without constantly playing cat and mouse with google.
diacritical
Unfortunately from what I read a couple of times, including a month or so ago, GrapheneOS discourages and doesn't support rooting the phone for security reasons that seem vague to me and don't appeal to my need to actually own my phone and OS. You could still root it with some third party tools from what I know, but not having root as the default makes it less of a secure FOSS OS and more of a closed down toy.
As for payment apps and other crap that refuses to run if I, the owner and administrator of my own device, don't have admin access, I would just refuse to run it. What's next - websites refusing to work if I have root on my Linux desktop?
strcat
LineageOS also discourages and doesn't support replacing the core of the OS with a rootkit providing persistent app accessible root. GrapheneOS is no different from LineageOS in that regard. People do this with GrapheneOS regardless of our strong recommendation not do it. Our reasons for discouraging it aren't vague. It very directly harms the security model and is not a good approach to implementing any of the features hacked together through it. Those features should be properly implemented to fit within the overall approach taken by GrapheneOS. Giving root access to a huge portion of the OS harms security even if you never use the feature. It does not mean you can't do it, we only recommend you don't.
gruez
>but not having root as the default makes it less of a secure FOSS OS and more of a closed down toy.
I don't get it, it's "less of a secure FOSS OS" to not have root by default, but it's secure to run random apps as root and breaking android's security model? What's the threat model here?
kevincox
Yeah, this is the deal breaker for me as well. The fact that I own my device is non-negotiable. It is the reason I left the stock OS and I'm not going back. The idea that I can't access my own files if an app doesn't explicitly give me access is wild to me. I understand there are security risks of a root permission but it is important to have that fallback when you need it and the existing permissions aren't sufficient.
subscribed
These reasons for not supporting the root have been stated on their discussion forum multiple times.
But they do not stop you from doing so, you can fairly easily build your own images with root enabled.
microtonal
As far as I know, root and tap to pay are pretty much mutually exclusive, at least if you meant Google Pay? Unlocked and rooted devices do not pass remote attestation. And it's not just something you can fake when you have root, since it is anchored in hardware (the attestation certificate chain is signed by a hardware-backed key and contains the verified boot state and verified boot key).
thot_experiment
I can tap to pay with google pay on my rooted pixel while the spoof key isn't blacklisted, IIRC it uses dumped credentials extracted from other devices but I can reliably spoof Play Integrity and SafetyNet. It would be nice to not have an adversarial relationship with my things for once.
HugoTea
GrapheneOS doesn't give you root access, citing security issues it introduces. You could re-compile your own copy with root access, though not sure if we'll then be back to some non-certified OS that can't make payments...
thot_experiment
Yikes. Nevermind. The whole phone security model is one of the worst things to happen to computing, the concept that you shouldn't own your device for safety is so fucked.
gruez
>You could re-compile your own copy with root access, though not sure if we'll then be back to some non-certified OS that can't make payments...
GrapheneOS is already non-certified, for most apps that care, because it can't pass STRONG_INTEGRITY with play protect.
farkanoid
Not sure how I feel about this. Motorola seems to be the exclusive provider of encrypted cellular networks and associated devices to the Israeli military [1][2].
I'm under the impression that basebands still require a proprietary/binary blob, basically rendering the security features of the underlying Open Source OS useless, since it sits between the user and outside connectivity.
How can GrapheneOS ensure that there are no hidden backdoors (ie: Pegasus-like spyware, which was created by ex-IDF soldiers via NSO Group), etc, in the baseband?
[1] https://www.whoprofits.org/companies/company/3808
[2] https://www.motorolasolutions.com/newsroom/press-releases/mo...
spaqin
In the same way they can(not) do it on Pixel phones - and I would be surprised if Google was not already cooperating with the state actors. You do what you can. Even open source drivers (which are not gonna happen when operating within tightly regulated radio bands) won't help if there's a hardware backdoor.
Terr_
The way I see it, I don't have much direct control over the actualities of that kind of nation-state spying stuff. However:
1. I can direct my consumer-dollars towards the vendors that promise to respect ownership and privacy in general, and they will also have the most to lose if they are caught enabling spying.
2. Defense in depth. Security features generally add to the spying's difficulty, expense, or risk of detection, and that in turn decreases the incentive for abuse.
Barbing
Ah nice so leave the phones in another room
Easy but for missing Step 1 of “Colocate with friends and business partners”
lotyrin
Just only ever speak in a language of your own invention that uses both cryptographic and steganographic techniques which you invented while colocated, maybe.
vladms
I personally am more afraid of what "someone" can convince other people to do rather than listening to me. Sadly there are enough people that are easily manipulated that probably the "smarter" people are completely ignored.
If I would be to place a bet I would place it on mass propaganda targeting people below average - it might be simpler, easier and cost effective. So lots of this talk about "encryption", "privacy" might be in fact great for those "actors": smart people worry about their precious technology and principles, while "they" talk to "the masses".
627467
Motorola Solutions != motorola mobility
Ill leave you to investigate how != they are
herewulf
This. I know some people who work for the former and they are always having to say "no, I don't work for that Motorola". The shared name is entirely historic.
RajT88
Mobility is in Merchandise Mart, Solutions is in Schaumburg.
Used to be anyways. (My office was a floor below in the mart)
farkanoid
I did. There's long term patent cross-licensing agreements between the two companies. Motorola mobility may be a separate company now, but they didn't start from scratch.
karel-3d
The mororola mobility is a Chinese company with Chinese management. They bought the brand and the patent portfolio. They sure as hell are not supplying Israel or NSA.
627467
> they didnt start from scratch
> long term patern cross licensing
> israel
> pegasus
Basically lots of judgment based off of superficial facts with little understanding of implications and the actual consequences of those facts.
aniviacat
Motorola phones are made by Motorola Mobility, not Motorola Solutions.
Motorola Mobility is largely owned by the Chinese government.
The Chinese government is not gonna share your data with Israel/USA.
Dectanable
Israel has sold nuclear US state secrets to China. Don't hold your breath. https://www.military.com/defensetech/2013/12/24/report-israe...
alt227
Serves them right for giving confidential equipment to terrorists.
The key quote in this article is:
"Israel has a long record of getting U.S. military technology to China. "
greenchair
true, they want it for themselves
embedding-shape
If you're not in country X which spies on you, but you live in country Y, is it preferable to have country X or Y to spy on you, given one is further away and cannot really impact your daily life, compared to the other country?
thisislife2
Let me give you another perspective - you cannot fight a foreign state that wants to hack your device and access your personal data. Even Apple iPhones, who often taut how "secure" their devices are, remain vulnerable to state spywares. A secured device, at most, will protect your data from the police or lay cracker or malware, who lack the means to use more sophisticated methods to access your data. When Android forks (like Lineage OS or Graphene OS) advertise that their Oses are more "secure", with better "data protection", what they mean is that their OSes try and prevent data leakages to the OS vendors (like Google or Apple or other BigTech) or to online services integrated with the OS or through system and user installed apps. In other words, "privacy and security" primarily means that they try and prevent surveillance capitalism.
DANmode
Will Graphene not require Moto to offer an IOMMU like Pixels do?
strcat
They already have it and it isn't part of what needs to be developed. Qualcomm does that for them.
user2722
Ya, I believe that's the correct answer. I believe there is an IOMMU or equivalent on modern phones to prevent those doubts binary blobs bring.
M95D
None of it matters. If the device has a SIM card (virtual or physical), it will execute commands sent over the network. It's required by the GSM/LTE standards. The best you can hope for is to have separate SoC for the OS and separate SoC for the GSM/LTE connectivity, but that means double the power consumption.
See presentation at DEFCON21 about SIM cards: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31D94QOo2gY
Aachen
defcon21 is from the pre-snowden world (2013), for anyone else wondering. Mobile landscape (our reliance on them, the central role they play in our lives) back then was a little bit different and indeed I'd not be surprised if most models support that the carrier can remotely read out any memory location or something
fsflover
Perhaps you may be interested in Librem 5 or Pinephone, both of which have hardware kill switches for modem and available schematics. The latter even has most of the modem software freed.
strcat
Those devices have atrocious security at a hardware, firmware and software level. Their microphone kill switch also doesn't prevent audio recording. They aren't open hardware despite many attempts to mislead people with the marketing.
> The latter even has most of the modem software freed.
Pinephones have entirely closed source baseband firmware. They use a highly unusual cellular radio which includes both an incredibly outdated Qualcomm baseband processor with atrocious updates and security combined with an extremely outdated proprietary fork of Android running on an extra CPU core which isn't present in any mainstream smartphone. It's only replacing the unusual extra OS which has been done. That whole component doesn't exist on other smartphones and the only reason it's possible to replace it is because the whole radio has absolutely atrocious security. The radio is connected via a far higher attack surface USB connection providing far less isolation for the OS and the USB connection can be used to flash the proprietary Android OS via the fastboot protocol. The baseband firmware itself doesn't have any replacement available.
daneel_w
> Pinephones have entirely closed source baseband firmware.
> The baseband firmware itself doesn't have any replacement available.
Same with the Google Pixels and their Samsung Exynos modem. Neither you nor GrapheneOS users have any idea at all what's going on in their cellular transceivers. What will it be for the upcoming Motorola phone?
fsflover
> Their microphone kill switch also doesn't prevent audio recording.
Unless you provide some evidence, I will consider this false accusation.
> They aren't open hardware despite many attempts to mislead people with the marketing.
Who and where said they were open hardware?
> extremely outdated proprietary fork of Android
Which was freed and can run new Linux kernels now: https://github.com/the-modem-distro/pinephone_modem_sdk and https://xnux.eu/devices/feature/modem-pp.html
Your walls of text are disingenuous.
gf000
Security theater, it has absolutely no use. If you can't trust your hardware that it won't actively listen to the microphone without your knowledge and permission then what are you even doing with that device?!
fsflover
I do trust my device. However in specific circumstances where privacy may be critical, an additional protection might save me even from a state-sponsored attack.
raffael_de
> Not sure how I feel about this. Motorola seems to be the exclusive provider of encrypted cellular networks and associated devices to the Israeli military [1][2].
makes me feel good about it.
strcat
You're confusing Motorola Mobility with Motorola Solutions. These haven't been part of the same company since 2011. We would happily support devices from Motorola Solutions with their collaboration too but have no contact or partnership with them as they're an entirely different company. We want to support more devices meeting our requirements and if people have issues with one of the choices due to their opinions on geopolitics they can use another.
Aeglaecia
what exactly makes you feel good about a privacy black hole with the worlds foremost anti privacy captain at the helm ?
imcritic
The opportunity to be blown up by your phone upon a trigger pulled by mossad. Obviously.
raffael_de
all technology companies are to some extent in cahoots with secret agencies. but israel has no room for mistakes, they only work with the best. no doubt they will ask for backdoors. but no phone is safe from governments anyway - grapheneos or not.
sandreas
If anyone from Motorola is reading this: Please add a smaller device to your Portfolio, about max the size of a Pixel 8. I'm not hoping for an audio jack any more but at least small it could be.
All in all: Thank you for making this possible.
simonmales
The small form factor phones simply do not sell. Some great thoughts on the topic:
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iR9zBsKELVs * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZdbbN3FCzE Not about small form factor, rather enthusiast phones don't last
Currently running a Sony Xperia 5 V which farm factor is acceptable, and still will get a number of months of updates. And the winning point is that the bootloader can be unlocked and is supported by LineageOS.
rglullis
The issue of "enthusiast phones" is not the same as for small phones. The problem that MKBHD is describing is that a company that starts as an enthusiast phone can not grow by getting the niche larger, so they need to start competing in the "average consumer" market. But a large, established company like Motorola and Samsung can for sure segment their product line to serve a particular demand.
I think the issue of small phones is that, while there people saying they would buy if it was available, no one is saying "I would buy one small phone at flagship prices, even if they don't have flagship features".
Zak
I suspect there's a large overlap between people who want a small phone and people who only upgrade their phone when there's a pressing need. I am in both groups.
The root cause is that the phone is not a primary device for me. It's what I use when bringing a PC is too much trouble.
Milpotel
> The small form factor phones simply do not sell.
And still in every phone topic people complain about phones being too big... I'd love to have a smaller affordable smartphone.
beeforpork
Same here. And I have a friend who keeps his small IPhone because they stopped building smaller phones, too. There is a demand, maybe not that big.
For me, I want to be able to operate the phone with one hand, and the large screen makes it difficult to reach all the spots on the screen even with large hands. I do operate my Fairphone 5 with one hand, but it is super awkward and at some point, the phone will fall into a gully because I cannot hold it tight while navigating.
And I wouldn't mind 2mm more thickness if this means the cameras are flush with the back and the battery is larger.
paol
I was in the same boat and literally this week bought a Pixel 8. It's a 2 year old phone but with the extended support period that's no longer a problem, and being old means you can get it new for about €300 or refurbished for even less.
The other option is the Samsung S2x line, which you can apply the same strategy to.
sandreas
I'm not necessarily asking for a "small" phone as in 4.5" or less.
I'd like to have an Option around 6" and 150x70x9mm, which is not really small. Surprisingly the Pixel 8 has a smaller footprint than the Pixel *a variants while having a bigger display.
So my request would be a device around the size of the Pixel 8, having a similar battery size and if possible a headphone jack at a reasonable price point (350 bucks).
I consider the pixel 8 as really solid device for graphene OS.
They don't even need to fix the longpress for headphone remotes... Just a device that is the right size.
TwoFerMaggie
I watched the first video. One point they didn't mentioned is that their android example of the "last small flagship phone", asus zenfone 9/10, is about the same size as an iphone 12/13, not the mini.
Do regular iphones sell well? If so, the small flagship phones are not dead, because iphones are not dead. If iphones are not counted as small phones, then the small android flagship phones are dead long time ago.
joe_mamba
>And the winning point is that the bootloader can be unlocked and is supported by LineageOS
Don't banking, security and payment apps detect the unlocked bootloader and prevent them from working on lineageos? At least that's what happened to me after i flashed lineage on my old tablet.
Because then what's the point of a smartphone if it can't do banking, payment, shopping, ticketing, etc? Use it as a gimped pocket web browser and ebook reader? There's not gonna be any mass market adoption for such "smartphones" until they can run all apps out of the box like vanilla androids and IOS phones.
Your average consumer isn't gonna wanna fuck around with signing keys and bootloader relock. Hell, even this tech savvy HN user doesn't want to do that because he has better things to do with his time. The days from my childhood when I always rooted my Android phone, installed custom ROMs with custom kernels, magisk, titanium backup, cerberus to make the phone "my own" are long behind me.
carpenecopinum
There is the option to register the signing key of the ROM with the bootloader and then relocking it, thereby making those apps happy again.
The biggest issue is that there is a different way to do this for every device, so most custom ROMs don't bother. It's relatively simple and automatable for Pixel devices, so the GrapheneOS installer takes care of it. e/OS/, which is based on Lineage, allows this for some devices, iirc.
throawayonthe
(at least on pixels and apparently this future motorolla,) it can be re-locked, so it passes the integrity check; however there is an additional layer that needs google signing keys, which of course means you can't pass that one if you can't ship the keys
funnily enough my banking app works but the mcdonalds app doesn't, lol
jbstack
What we need is a way for the OS to trick banking apps into thinking they are running on the platform they expect.
lifis
Switch to a bank that offers a fully functional web or Android app, as opposed to only allowing Google Android
Propelloni
I run a Xperia 10 V. Great phone, great form factor, easy to unlock. It runs for days, almost a week, on one battery charge. Sony is doing something right here.
Tarsul
I got the same or similar but let's not kid ourselves that this is in any way small. It would have been giant by 2015 standards. That's how much the overton window has shifted.
lofaszvanitt
Oh, the guy who is still mentally on the level when he started his channel. And these shenanigans.... putting a phone in a mini coffin. sigh
Why it has to be a flagship? Sell them cheap. It's like AAA game makers cry about ballooning costs, and they make 60 hour games that literally nobody plays through....
Aachen
> small form factor phones simply do not sell
Are we really sure "nobody actually wants it"? I need to help my family select the smallest possible phone every time. Meanwhile choices are dwindling and the remaining 2 models are either overpriced or outdated and so I need to tell them it's better to take a (whatever currently goes for) "medium sized" model, which shifts upwards every time I/they need a new one. No wonder that people don't buy small phones anymore if they don't exist
I don't buy this nonsense about small phones being a niche when so many people are actively seeking them out, both online and offline in my practical experience
It's just harder to make, heat dissipation or battery will be restricted, doubly so if you're a niche manufacturer without a big budget, or one who tries to keep it repairable and needs the extra space for screws. So I can understand that Fairphone doesn't release a small model (even if it means I simply cannot use it: I actually put my money down and bought one, but sadly had to sell it onwards after a few weeks of trying) but for Graphenorola I'm not sure that restriction exists. It may just not please everyone if the chip is underclocked for heat and battery efficiency reasons and so they're not likely to. Doesn't mean there's no market for a small variant for any manufacturer that has more than one device on the market
My mom's and my current phone (same model) is what I'd call medium sized (per 2019 standards, when it was new) and the battery life sucks, but I'd buy this model again anyway if it came out with a ≥2025 SoC because I can actually use it unlike nearly any other phone on the market. Not properly reach the top, but at least the left side so that'll have to do
throwaway81523
The whole Moto G series has audio jacks, at least as of a year or so ago. I hope that Graphene makes it to those affordable models. I don't need high end cameras or AI on my phone. In fact AI is quite unwanted.
embedding-shape
I think I went through the first ~3 or so generations of the Motorola Moto G, and they were great for the price, besides the fact that each generation it got bigger and bigger, defeating the original motivation I bought them in the first place. Eventually the iPhone 12 Mini was released and I moved to iPhone at that point.
I also hope that the new GrapheneOS device from Motorola will be in the "smaller" size factor so it actually fits in my (apparently) tiny hands, but to be honest I'm probably getting one regardless, as iOS gets worse and worse every time I update it.
panny
Lol, no, according to graphene, an aux jack is a security problem. So is a microsd. But the hole punch with the camera pointed at your face, that's just fine.
When my current phone dies, I'm basically returning to a dumb phone with a removable battery. Now that Xperia dropped open source, every phone out there is terrible and I just don't want any of them. Anything that would support a ROM has features to make my skin crawl.
_vere
Their hardware requirements do not say this, where'd you get that idea? Graphene has stated they'll work with the Motorola team on supporting their devices, starting with the successors of the Razr foldable and the signature line, but there really hasn't been any talk about how additional peripherals like aux would be a no-go. USB is also a security concern, which is why they give you the option to disable it outright, disable data or disable until after-first-unlock. I don't see what would keep them from implementing this for aux, although since it's unidirectional I'm not sure if it even makes sense to compare aux to USB. They've supported pixels with aux ports in the past, and I don't think it's inclusion would be a blocking criteria. The comment about the camera is also kinda misguided. They zero out the camera input if you disable it, unlike traditional android. You can have a camera toggle in your quick settings and keep it disabled literally all the time. Enabling it when you bring up any camera related app takes either pin or biometrics, having the hardware here really shouldn't be a concern since you can look at how the code handling it works yourself. I'm not trying to convince you to use a pixel or a Motorola phone, do what you want, but at least be informed about stuff like this when you state things as if they are facts.
throawayonthe
why do you say "according to graphene?" have they said those things? or do you just mean the currently supported devices don't have these
throwaway81523
It sounds bizarre to me that an analog aux port is a security problem and that bluetooth audio is not, or that the phone's built in microphone is not. I never want to use bluetooth and tbh I've sometimes wanted a phone with no microphone, so that if I wanted to make a phone call I'd have to plug in my wired headset. That gets rid of the microphone as a listening device.
fsflover
> When my current phone dies, I'm basically returning to a dumb phone with a removable battery.
Why not a smartphone with the jack, microsd, and a hardware kill switch for camera?
sheiyei
It's a shame that modern banking (and communication with my family) needs a smartphone.
M95D
Modern dumb phones are just smartphones with a dumb UI.
amunozo
I was thinking the same thing. My smartphone is reaching the end of its life, and I really like something smaller.
venusenvy47
Also Motorola, make this phone available in the US: https://m.gsmarena.com/motorola_edge_50_neo-13224.php
It's the smallest phone available with a real telephoto lens. I think it was only available in India, but I got one on eBay because it has those two features (not huge with telephoto) I was looking for. I moved to it from a Pixel 6a because I refuse to go any bigger in physical size.
a-french-anon
That's "small"? Here I am with my 5.2" Xperia XA2 thinking I'll be forced to go back to dumbphones in the future... along with many others, I guess.
Aachen
No, it's not small, but it's afaik the smallest model you can find that's still unlockable and runs any ungoogled OS
> I'll be forced to go back to dumbphones in the future... along with many others, I guess.
Going back to a dumbphone for me would mean changing my outdoor hobbies (like contributing to openstreetmap), so I'll take my losses and continue on a smartphone, but I share the sentiment. Power to you if you do it!
coldpie
Check out their Razr Plus or Razr Ultra. The external display is 4" and fully functional, and it unfolds into a full-size phablet for when you need that. I'm a small-phone-liker and I've found it to be a great device, I'm very happy with mine.
babuskov
+1 from me.
Motorola has such great quality/price ratio and the user experience is decent. There's still some nagging and such but overall it's much better than the competition.
But I still can't get over my old iPhone 6. That phone size was just perfect. Easy to hold and do everything with one hand, easy to fit into any pocket.
I really want an Android like that. I don't need 3 cameras and bunch of other nonsense.
hsbauauvhabzb
Would a flip phone suffice?
raffael_de
wouldn't trust a flip phone with a display fold. i want small, thin and light.
Zak
I'm glad to hear that. That means these devices will be a popular target, perhaps the popular target for alternative operating systems both Android-based and non-Android Linux.
yjftsjthsd-h
Historically Moto devices have already had eg. pretty good lineageos support ( https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/#motorola ).
boltzmann-brain
with the advent of AI assists, I can't wait for people to start hooking up SoCs, GPUs, and other components burdened by proprietary driver and firmware to logic analyzers, and letting AI have a crack at it. I wonder what'll happen - this might well be the end of proprietary blobs, and I'm here for it.
p0w3n3d
That would be wonderful but cracking proprietary blobs which may be and probably are encrypted, would take massive amount of time, and later rework could take a lot of tokens and broken SoCs. Nowadays electronics are driven by software so one bit off and voltage can get 9V instead of 3V for example
Imustaskforhelp
Oh, This might be one of the few ideas I approve AI use of.
Cursor spent like Million dollars on creating a browser which people were able to make later with a 200$/100$ subscription in the same amount of days as cursor with human assistance.
I don't think that this can be "autonomous", we assumed that making browsers could be autonomous process but it wasn't. That was the take I took from it all.
Will this be an example of autonomous tho? I think we still need a human experienced with reverse engineering in the loop but it might significantly improve their workflow
I wish if cursor, instead of having burnt million $ to something worthless essentially, Could have atleast done this experiment.
mptest
the end of proprietary blobs has to be the oddest set of words that excites me
mmh0000
If true. And I put a big if on that.
I WILL be buying their flagship model.
My go to for Graphene has been used Pixels from eBay. Because I can’t give money to Google in good conscience.
dotancohen
Doesn't buying a used pixel encourage the sale of new pixels by demonstrating a healthy resale value?
nhumrich
I don't think the market of people buying used phones for the purpose of graphene is going to make a dent in profits for Google. It raises resale value maybe by say, $0, considering the price is set by the average consumer
jstanley
Well then buying them directly from Google would have no effect either.
aniviacat
I never considered resale value when buying a phone. Is that really something people look for?
okanat
I often hear resale talk from iPhone buyers.
Markoff
that depends what you consider a healthy resale value, I bought my Pixel 6a with no issues for 100EUR :-) (and not because I care about Google's business, I don't have gapps in my phone, I just like good deals/VFM)
alt187
Yes, because everyone is a perfectly rational agent in the economy.
smusamashah
Didn't know more people are doing this. I am also using a used Pixel 4a which I got from eBay. Still has good battery. I don't see any reason to upgrade any time soon.
boltzmann-brain
Speaking of battery, veeeeery soon phones will have mandated replaceable batteries in the EU. I'm just hoping my current moto (a $99 job perfectly adequate for absolutely everything I do) survives until then.
Aside: I've noticed over the years that phones die in one of the following ways: - too fast charging (battery dies, charge controller dies) - usb port dies - screen broken - all sorts of falls
A lether folio case, gorilla glass, and a Qi charging adapter solve all of those problems (the charging adapter also limits the current by virtue of being inefficient). It has a magnetic connector (it's a simple two-pin job and it doesn't have any issues) - in the rare occasion I want to charge up real quick, I can still hook up directly via usb c, and meanwhile the port is stuffed with the converter's plug which prevents it from accumulating dirt and fluff.
I'm glad to say that even despite many falls, some directly onto the screen, the phone itself still works very well, even if the case and glass protector are obviously ragged.
I hope once unlockable Moto's come around I'll be able to keep that one for a long while as well.
Aachen
When you say replaceable, do you mean repairable or swappable? Like, does it need to be done without tools (probably takes <1 minute) or would it take me 2 hours with a load of tools (no change from today) just that there's a legal requirement for them to be commercially available?
Fwiw, besides people that crack the screen I have not seen any of the failures you've mentioned. The only phone I saw someone replace, for reasons other than software support, was myself because the gnss chip was cooked after 3 years (would track me perfectly, like if I step to the right it would notice, but with an offset of hundreds of metres so I'm in another town). All other phones I've owned are still perfectly functioning (the oldest Android phone I have, 2012, has a more reliable battery than my daily driver!), I don't use any case or screen protector. They're just software-wise obsolete because no updates and developers require the newer android apis
throawayonthe
well, it isn't receiving security updates https://grapheneos.org/faq#device-support
duskdozer
imo the RAM bloat/overly aggressive OS. on a similar aged device without zswap I couldn't run more than one maybe two things without the OS killing everything in the background. I think it was better before I got stuck updating to 15
DANmode
Security patches.
throawayonthe
and support for hw memory tagging :p
DANmode
Imagine downvoting “security patches” on Hacker News.
aussieguy1234
I too have been buying used Pixels, mostly for environmental reasons. But from a local shop phonebot. Got 3 phones from there, no issues at all.
Barbing
Buying used introduces such a big supply chain risk. I stay safe by buying direct and asking the NSA not to open the shipment in the order notes.
(y’all know this one https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/05/photos-of-an-nsa... )
gf000
What is the supposed threat model here?
Mr. Rich Guy sells me his personal device he used in the previous year because he wants new shiny phone, but he may have the very slightest chance of being a super evil genius? The government selling tampered phones on ebay, when they could just.. go directly to vendors and put their backdoors directly into new phones/software?
Sorry for the light snark, but this attack vector seems way too complicated for not much benefit. Unless you are some very VIP person being personally targeted.
aussieguy1234
I put GrapheneOS on the phone myself.
I wouldn't trust the OS shipped with a used phone.
NSA could technically do this with a new phone also and probably has.
keerthiko
Does anyone know where I can read more about which devices will be supported? GrapheneOS website devices FAQ doesn't list any Motorola devices, and the press release doesn't have much either.
vbezhenar
As I understand that situation, GrapheneOS developers are super picky about hardware they want to support. So out of all android phones they decided to support only Google Pixel because only these phones provide good enough hardware support for security features they want to provide.
So likely no existing Motorola phones are good enough and only new ones, developed in collaboration with GrapheneOS developers, will be suitable.
_vere
They said on Twitter that future devices in the Razr (foldable) and signature line will be supported. The current devices by Motorola do not fulfill their hardware requirements, so no need to buy one yet. This is speculation on my part, but its not unthinkable that non-flagship support could happen eventually, although mid tier SoCs generally don't have the hardware required to support graphene (hardware memory tagging, sufficiently open secure element, etc), so in the medium term, it's unlikely that anything but the flagships will be supported by graphene.
MYEUHD
Future Motorola devices (or maybe a subset of them?) will support GrapheneOS
> We're collaborating on future devices
wolvoleo
There's no details yet, but I was reading it won't likely emerge until 2027 so ostensibly these will be models that are yet to be announced. Might even be models dedicated to grapheneos (and other open source roms as they mentioned here)
BLKNSLVR
I'm pretty sure strcat was saying on a previous thread that it will only be future models, so nothing in their current line up in guaranteed to be compatible.
catlikesshrimp
This project is in hype stage. No work seems to have been done, yet.
Samsung had something as ambitious years ago, but it went nowhere https://www.xda-developers.com/samsung-promised-make-old-pho...
Stay tuned
t1234s
With Motorola being owned by the Chinese company Lenovo can these new devices be used in secure environments? I remember when Lenovo took over making ThinkPads they were banned in some secure environments because of Lenovo links to CCP.
tho2i3423400
At this point in time, esp. given the raving lunacy of the US White House, those of us outside the "West", wonder the same thing about US companies.
eckelhesten
Honestly I’d prefer Chinese backdoors over western ones. China is still a land far far away and I couldn’t care less about what they’d do with my data, unlike western alphabet boys who could freeze my accounts and assets for ”wrongthinking” in the future.
richsouth
THIS so much! I'm more at risk from the US and my own (UK) government than the Chinese, and in answer to the questions below: - No I don't know anyone from or in China - I'm highly unlikely to go anywhere near China (or fly over it, around it) - I'm poor
So unless my local Chinese takeaway is classed as Chinese soil, I'll more than happily buy my phone from there
Most phones are already made over there anyway so know knows what kind of backdoor, listening devices are coded into the chips they put into 'Western Company's' phones.
tjpnz
Just make sure you don't have any family in China and don't plan to transit through HK anytime in the future.
mdni007
I've been saying this for years and people thought I was going insane.
Haven880
Iphone is made by Chinese companies too. Same with Tesla. A lot of those components made by purely Chinese companies and yes can be trace to individuals who are CCP. It is extremely hard to source another purely away from any Chinese connections. If you say the main company is USA, you seems to ignore how the pager exploding setup was done. Go into any IT rooms in USA and you audit it as zero from China even if you ignore Taiwan as recognized by American law as part of China. We can't buy anything truly made non-China. Even F35 has some components (and that is official, unofficial we dont know) made in China. Google want to sell Motorola to American companies, not even Pentagon or NSA bother back then. Think about it, how hard to engineer a backdoor exactly same components (say capacitor) or motors during shipment for those phones.
abdullahkhalids
The true reason you can't trust a Chinese company, and other countries can't trust US companies, is the Western patent regime that allows various companies to sit on patents for absurd amounts of times, preventing others from selling you completely clean hardware on which every piece of software can be replaced.
zeech
Good point. It's a good thing that, say, Google is notoriously independent from the US government, and has never had any ties to it whatsoever.
ffsickempire
[dead]
Charon77
The whole point about having an open platform from boot is you don't have to trust it. You run your own code from first power on.
Is it possible that it's backdoored, have a secret opcode / management engine? Probably, but that goes to everyone, as it's not practical to analyze what's in the chip (unless you're decapping them and all)
I don't know what secure environments you're talking about, if it's an airgapped system then you should be secure even when what's inside 'tries to get out'.
Haven880
Korean and western made stuff guarantee to have such thing. CNC devices in Russia stopped working. Even NVIDIA gpu has back door according to China and NVIDIA had to settle this matter behind the scene with China government. At this point, your phone is 100% backdoorable by western government. The only thing protect you is you are non-threat and too small to be bother with.
akimbostrawman
>Even NVIDIA gpu has back door according to China and NVIDIA
They never said or claimed that. They rised concerns and asked about _possible_ backdoors the same way the west does about china e.g. Huawei.
unethical_ban
Is there documentation that GrapheneOS Pixels or iPhones are backdoored by governments to the extent that any person can be targeted?
NewJazz
Depends on what environment you mean. Chinese secure environments would see a Chinese OEM as an advantage vs. Google Pixels. In the US yeah you'd want a Pixel.
European tech is in shambles and everyone else is barely holding it together outside of tech.
maxloh
> Lenovo originated as an offshoot of a state-owned research institute.
From Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenovo
lucasfin000
That's the entire point of verified boot with custom keys, you don't need to trust Motorola or Lenovo. You can control what runs from the first boot, the threat model for a compromised supply chain is different from a backdoored chip. If you are worried about the latter that applies to every manufacturer including Google & Apple.
jMyles
Even though there doesn't seem to be huge mainstream consumer demand for this (although I actually question how well consumer demand for privacy and customization can ever be ascertained when the price signals are corrupted by a market where the winning players are essentially chosen by the state, as is arguably the case with both TSMC and Qualcomm), it still feels like the world simply couldn't go on with both iOS and Android become caged, cheapened, fragile shadows of the visions we once had for them (particularly AOSP).
dietr1ch
I think we can only expect the demand for privacy to grow into the future given that people tracking in a trenchcoat schemes are popping up everywhere through governmental and private efforts trying to gather data for ads and control.
windexh8er
Not to be flippant but who cares? People don't know there's an option. I've run Graphene for years and will gladly pay a premium for it. Beyond the bolstered security the battery life is exponentially better than a default Android device because of all the constant background traffic that Google doesn't allow any control over that you instantly have a choice with on GrapheneOS.
And as soon as you start showing these things to people they do start to care and ask how. So the fact that the mainstream is ignorant and doesn't care enough yet doesn't matter because it's very likely a much larger segment of users will care when the tech evangelists they trust stop using IOS and Google Android. That's how these things started and that's how they could very well play out in this scenario as well.
jMyles
Yes, I agree in full. Did you think I was taking a position contrary to this one?
windexh8er
My point was irrespective of your position: it doesn't matter. The mainstream won't break the Apple/Google cycle the same way the mainstream didn't break the lock carriers once had on software updates for phones. Apple broke that through its small but influential technologists and prosumers. Motorola can potentially be that for breaking out of the locks Apple and Google have bound through hardware manufacturers. The only reason AOSP can't exist without Google has nothing to do with Google, but more with Qualcomm. Motorola has the opportunity to broker that breakout. And we need this right now. Lawmakers and big tech are locking themselves in further, the longer we don't have another option the harder it will be to move outside of these greedy corporations.
dmix
Not all markets are trendy B2C stuff. The Motorola press release specifically mentioned B2B/corporate sales where security is important and there's plenty of government, journalist, non-profits/activists, etc usecases on top of the usual corporate locked-down environments like banking.
adriatp
Better marketing is impossible, Motorola has just positioned itself as a very strong buying option.
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
Frannky
Damn I would love to buy it. In the past I tried different mods trying to get rid of google, the problem was always the same, lot of little annoyances making it very painful for daily usage. A de Googled phone without annoyances and security would be very cool.
Another interesting thing is that I haven't had any reason to buy a new phone in a very long time so we are probably in a time where the hardware is commodotized enough for motorola to be able to ship exactly what I need.
Never thought I would have think of routing for Motorola in 2026 but you never know!
throwaway12pol
Thank god (or China) for not needing Google devices for Graphene in the future! Motorola devices are 10x more affordable in my country, as Pixel phones aren't even officially here and must be imported with high taxes, while Motorola has official stores and even builds phones locally!
Get the top HN stories in your inbox every day.
GrapheneOS always strikes me as "perfect is the enemy of good". I don't necessarily need top-notch security features, I've been all right with all kinds of Android phones. The things I'd like are:
- ability to sandbox Google Play and Google Apps so that they live in their nice little Google bubble and have no control over my phone overall
- ability to run all applications sandboxed with fake permissions that I can whitelist for each application and without letting the app know it doesn't have the permissions it wants. Want location? Give the app a location point I've fixed for that app. (Or pass through real GPS location if I've chosen so.) Want contacts? Give the app empty contacts list. Or if I've allowed, give the app the contacts I've whitelisted.
The Android/Google ecosystem is all right in itself, I just want to limit all of it inside a cage that I control. I want the exact same for my browser: I want webpages to run in a highly controlled sandbox with my choice of spoofed environment and permissions instead of assuming any power over my system. Or my Linux desktop where I firejail or sandbox certain proprietary apps outside of my distro's repositories.