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ivanjermakov
Nition
On Linux if you learn shortcuts for close/minimise/maximise as well, you can even remove window borders and title bars entirely. It's free screen real estate.
sigmoid10
The gnome window title bars are obnoxiously thick and useless by default tho. I've found that Unity or even just Windows like styling in Gnome is a lot more respectful to your screen real estate.
1718627440
I like the Gnome 2 title bars (Mate). Gnome wasn't always that bad.
prmoustache
That is a tradeoff that makes it nice when you have a convertible laptop.
I wish it was simply configurable from the settings dialogs.
philipallstar
Yes, Gnome looks very odd because of that.
user2722
It definitely needs improvement but for touchscreens it is good.
Fluorescence
It's my preference too. What do you use?
I used to use "GTK Title Bar" gnome extension which was abandoned a few versions ago so had to write my own and it's X11 specific. The one drawback is that when windows are reopened, they are offset by the title bar height i.e. it messes up whatever is tracking the size/offset/location.
Anyone have other ways to do this in gnome and do they work on wayland too?
Nition
I'm on Fedora KDE so won't be much help to you, but there is a "Windows Rules" section in the system settings where I've added a rule that applies to all windows with the property "No titlebar and frame". Actually I'd quite like frame just with no titlebar, but that's not an option.
Rygian
The AltDrag tool on Windows includes Super+double click to maximize/restore. I find it surprising that this does not come by default on KDE.
noughtnaut
"AltSnap" is a continuation of AltDrag that's better on Windows 11. It is instrumental in making me loathe Windows 11 _ever so slightly_ less.
jraph
I drag the window to the top for this. On KDE there's also a (configurable) keyboard shortcut (Meta + prev page, TIL, might start doing this now).
GuinansEyebrows
> It's free screen real estate.
jim, does it get any better than this?
pjmlp
Depends on the window manager.
anschwa
On macOS, you can enable window dragging by holding down the Control+Command keys with this command:
defaults write -g NSWindowShouldDragOnGesture -bool true
loeber
MacOS is the "it just works" operating system. As such, I think the moment that you need to declare custom workarounds like this, it kind of loses its legitimacy, and you should already be in Linux land.
latexr
I abhor the current state of macOS and Tim Cook’s leadership, but your take is nonsensical.
For one, “it just works” hasn’t been used in over a decade, same as Google’s “don’t be evil”, which does tell you something about their current philosophies.
But more importantly, “it just works” was obviously never about it “it reads your mind and does every software feature however you personally like”, it was about the integration of hardware and software and not having to fiddle with drivers and settings to get hardware basics working.
huijzer
Compared to my old NixOS with tiling window manager, I’d say MacOS panes just doesn’t work. I have Rectangle, but it’s no comparison to the full tiling experience. I switched for Apple Silicon nothing more
coldtea
Even if this was a "custom workaround" this argument would be extreme "all or nothing" binary thinking.
An OS can "just work" for of the stuff a user does, and just need some tweaking here or there. Doesn't mean if the "just works" stuff is not 100% you're just as good going to Linux.
Anyway, this is not some "custom workaround", it's a regular Apple-provided macOS toggle. It's just not exposed in the UI, because for most users, the regular way "just works". I know all kinds of "defaults" toggles, and barely use 1/100 of them, because the actual defaults are fine.
jonhohle
But, believe it or not, is very customizable (and previously very scriptable). I have Shift+Command+M (maximize) bound to resize to fit the content (different from full screen in macOS). Anything that’s in a menu can be bound to a keyboard shortcut without any additional utilities.
create-username
I found myself closing Linux windows sometimes only with alt+F4; sometimes only with ctrl+Q; sometimes with both; sometimes with none
avidphantasm
I kind of agree with you, but on macOS I still don’t have to ever think about drivers. The hardware just works. Linux isn’t quite there yet. My work XPS laptop running Ubuntu is close, but not quite the same.
monegator
Yes, the mac user faces incredible disillusion when he discovers that "just works" was just another marketing gimmick (to the likes of it doesn't get viruses!)
cpuguy83
This used to be option exposed in settings.
weikju
Wish it worked on all windows. For some reason Settings is exempt from this, for example.
Reason077
The macOS Settings app is broken in all kinds of ways, as far as UI/UX goes. It's been this way since they redesigned it a few years back. Not that it was great before, but the redesign just made it worse.
jmarcher
It (partially) works, but only if the cursor is NOT hovering over the right portion of the window. So only 30% works.
jihadjihad
I think it was a mistake for Apple to put some of the best QOL, not just accessibility, enhancements behind the Accessibility section of the Settings, rather than on the Trackpad settings. Three finger drag is a game changer, and a lot of my colleagues had no idea it existed.
heddhunter
The weird thing is that setting used to be in the trackpad settings! I have no idea why they moved it. It's one of the first things I enable on every device I use.
hosteur
I tried this on most recent MacOS 26 - it does not work here. Might it be because I have Rectangle installed?
bathwaterpizza
Works great for me. I enabled that functionality alongside resizing on RMB by using "Easy Move+Resize" from GH. I also use Raycast to bind most window management stuff, it's instant unlike the built-in alternatives on Tahoe.
jihadjihad
Same, tried with and without Rectangle running and haven't seen it work yet. Must be missing something obvious.
edit: I ended up trying Easy Move+Resize which is mentioned in a sibling comment, can recommend, works as advertised.
onion2k
I don't think I know how to confirm that command is correct, and I've been a Mac user for decades. If Apple's solution to problems is "trust the CLI command you found on a website" then I might need to sell some shares.
buzzert
Is there a way to resize windows with this gesture as well?
omnifischer
if you search
NSWindowShouldDragOnGesture
you see how often this feature gets broken and type some other flag or install 3rd party app.
garciansmith
Yeah, it was one of those things I noticed when I first started using Linux and wondered why every other OS didn't just copy it.
cosmic_cheese
Probably just simple resistance to use of modifier keys in non-technical users, at least on the Windows side. A lot of users never touch a modifier except for Ctrl for copy/paste and maybe Windows for start menu search.
On the Mac side where key combos and modifier use is more widespread among users, it’s probably because there’s no intuitive visual that can be associated with the interaction.
gf000
It's not like Apple would frown about the idea of an action having "no intuitive visual associated with it". On iOS, you can scroll to the top by pressing on the status bar as one example.
garciansmith
Oh, I get having a visual way of doing it with just a mouse for sure. But for power users or even just-a-little-bit-of-knowledge users it's super quick and convenient. When I had to use Windows for work it drove me nuts that the option wasn't there (ended up finding AltDrag thankfully).
hota_mazi
On Windows, I use AltDrag.
mmis1000
windows does support [win] + [arrow key] though
nozzlegear
Mac supports the win (Cmd) + arrow key thing too; figured I'd mention since the story is about macOS window management.
thanatos519
I used to use the Sawfish window manager ... before it fell out of maintenance, oh and before I switched to DEs with the window manager bolted on.
The thing I miss the most from Sawfish is that it let me resize any window. There are a lot of fixed-sized modal dialogs with scrollbars that wouldn't need them if they were taller, and there's a lot of room on my portrait monitor!
cachius
What a nice feature! Really puts the user in control. Is there any maintained WM allowing this? How are modals treated on tiling WMs?
Mackser
Easy Move+Resize is great for this on macOS: https://github.com/dmarcotte/easy-move-resize
alejoar
This is the way, game changer.
ndiddy
For window move I think it's a reaction to the popularization of putting UI in the window titlebar so there's nothing to grab onto. I don't mind it but I wish there was a dedicated "grab" button on the mouse because I find it clunky to have to use both hands to manage windows.
eqvinox
I can tell you the feature of Meta/Super¹+L/R click to move/resize windows has existed on Linux long before UI in the window titlebar became a thing.
¹ aka Windows key
ndiddy
I know it's been around for a while, but I don't recall people talking about it like it's a killer feature of Linux window management until after the "UI in the window titlebar" trend started.
delaminator
I use i3-wm
I never resize a window with its border.
I never minimize a weindow.
I sometimes move a window to a different panel but it snaps to the width / height of the column.
Overlapping windows is perhaps the worst GUI paradigm - it's like the first thing someone thought of for 640 x 480 screens.
Let it go.
pjmlp
Tiling window managers used to be a thing in the old days, they predate the invention of overlapping windows, there is a reason it is only a minority that reaches out to them nowadays.
zamalek
Tilings are no better or no worse than floating. There are many users who would benefit from them (people who typically keep all their windows maximized), but have had literally zero exposure two them due to MacOS and Windows.
Complaints about lack of window snapping in MacOS vs Windows, a loose copy of tiling, are consistent across the internet. If MacOS and Windows had native tiling support, you'd see a fight fiercer than tabs vs. spaces.
The reason floating windows are used is because "that's the way it is done." Windows 95 wowed the world and established the status quo.
Not to mention the direction that the likes of Paper and Niri are going, these are things that very few users get to experience and therefore couldn't possibly have an informed decision on what they prefer.
BoingBoomTschak
That reason being that there is a minority of people who reach out to anything instead of just using what they're given. Compounded by baby duck syndrome, of course.
delaminator
Not in a GUI though. Sun Windows was overlapping, GEM was overlapping and almost everything else since then.
I'm on a 5120x2160 monitor and tiling is super perfect.
Can't recommend it enough.
paranoidxprod
Recently getting a new Mac for work, coming from Hyprland has been tough, but I feel like I’m getting there. Aerospace and Karabiner-Elements have gotten me most of the way there. Have had to write a few scripts to get the workspaces working the way I’m used to, but overall I got a significant part of my workflow to mirror my Linux setup, but would still love to get the super+right click to resize working somehow (there is a native way to move windows with ctrl+cmd+left click which was nice).
airstrike
Same here. I use both!
> get the super+right click to resize working somehow (there is a native way to move windows with ctrl+cmd+left click which was nice).
I've tried this with Hamerspoon to no avail and ultimately gave up... if you find a workaround, I'm all ears!
I really miss AHK...
malnourish
How are you liking Aerospace? I miss i3. I tried a few TWMs in Mac but they felt quite janky, but it's possible I just didn't give them time.
crimist
Not OP but it's the best auto tiling WM I've found for MacOS so far. Yabai requires SIP disabled for what I would consider core features which is a no go on a work laptop. Aerospace sides steps this and MacOS's horrible window management by just not using the built in spaces. I've only had to restart it a couple times over the last 4 months due to bugs.
I also use https://github.com/acsandmann/aerospace-swipe to add trackpad support.
jitl
see my comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46998527
olivierestsage
It really has gotten to the point where Linux offers the best option for a sane desktop experience. Watching Windows and macOS implode while KDE and Gnome slowly get better and better has really been something. Not quite at the point I'd recommend them for grandma and grandpa, but not that far off, either.
staticassertion
I've been using a Mac basically full time for years now, due to work. It's easily the worst UX and it's sort of shocking, after decades of hearing "it just works" or whatever. Hidden windows, hidden desktops, obscure keyboard shortcuts, etc.
I actually don't even know how to use the mac for the most part, I've learned to live in the terminal. I contrast this with Linux where I can just... idk, browse files? Where windows don't suddenly "escape" into some other, hidden environment, where I can just use a computer in a very sane way, and if I want keyboard shortcuts they largely align with expectations.
I was extremely frustrated while on a call using a mac. I made the video call full screen, which then placed it onto essentially a "virtual monitor" (ie: completely hidden). I had no way to alt tab back to it, for whatever reason, and I had no way to actually recover the window in any of the usualy "window switching" means. I knew there was a totally undiscoverable gesture to see those things but I was docked so didn't have access to the trackpad.
I figured out if you go to the hidden dock at the bottom and select Chrome, as I recall, you can then get swapped back over to that virtual desktop, "un full screen" the window, and it returns to sanity.
Mac UX seems to go against literally every single guideline I can imagine. Invisible corners, heavily reliant on gestures, asymmetric user experiences (ie: I can press a button to trigger something, but there isn't a way to 'un trigger' it using the same sequence/ reverse sequence/ 'shift' sequence), ridiculous failure modes, etc.
I can't believe that people live like this. I think they don't know how bad they've got it, I routinely see mac users avoiding the use of 'full screen', something that I myself have had to learn to avoid on a mac, despite decades of having never given it a second thought.
bfbf
MacOS definitely has its issues but this just makes it sound like you have different expectations of how an OS should work. Different isn’t always bad. Hiding applications is a pretty key concept in MacOS. Shortcuts are pretty straightforward? Cmd+H to hide, Cmd+Q to quit. Spaces aren’t hidden- there’s lots of ways to access them, but it seems you haven’t bothered to learn them. In your example pressing ctrl+right would have switched the first full screen space. You could also have right clicked the Chrome icon in the dock for a list of windows.
BTW the dock doesn’t have to be hidden, and idk if it was a typo but alt+tab isn’t a default shortcut. Command is the key used for system shortcuts, so maybe you should have tried that? Like yeah it’s different but that doesn’t make it bad. If you been using it for 10 years without figuring that out…
—-
I’m with you on the 1st party apps though, and the stupid corners on Tahoe.
staticassertion
I call it "alt tab" because that's how my brain maps the keyboard. The reality is simple - I struggled going from Windows to Ubuntu about 20 years ago but ultimately made it to the other side knowing how to use both well. With macs, I didn't. 10 years later and all of my adaptations are to avoid the operating system. In 10 years the main thing I've learned is how to get myself out of a jam and stick to the parts of the OS that don't feel like shit. I mean, it's not like I haven't learned these things, I know how to gesture, I know how to exit full screen, etc, it's not like I didn't ever learn, I'm explaining that the experience was dog shit.
Anyone is free to claim that I just didn't try, or didn't give it a fair shake, or perhaps I'm just some idiot who doesn't know computers or whatever.
Maybe I just think an OS should work differently, but okay? I've never said that I have some sort of access to a platonic ideal of objective operating systems and that macs don't meet it. I'm saying that I think it's bad and I gave examples of why. And I think I can easily appeal to my experiences seeing others use the OS - I don't think they find anything you're talking about appealing either.
renmillar
> Hiding applications is a pretty key concept in MacOS. Shortcuts are pretty straightforward? Cmd+H to hide, Cmd+Q to quit. Spaces aren’t hidden- there’s lots of ways to access them, but it seems you haven’t bothered to learn them.
They're not talking about Cmd+H hiding or virtual desktops - those exist on Windows too. The issue is how macOS handles window placement with zero visual feedback.
For example, when you open a new window from a fullscreen app, it just silently appears on another space. No indicator, no notification. You're left guessing whether it even opened and where it went. The placement depends on arcane rules about space layout, fullscreen ordering, and external displays - and it's basically random half the time. You either memorize the exact behavior or manually search through all your spaces.
bsimpson
Years ago, they changed the behavior of the green button to be "fullscreen into a separate space." As someone who never uses spaces, this is never what I want.
You can escape it by moving your cursor to the top edge of the screen and clicking the green button on the titlebar that appears to exit fullscreen.
dwaite
> Years ago, they changed the behavior of the green button to be "fullscreen into a separate space."
Not quite. It has the old behavior (grow to as large a window as supported) if the app does not support full-screen. For instance, the Settings app cannot grow wider, so it grows to full screen height.
The icon that appears when you hover over the green button reflects whether it is full screen or zoom behavior. If you hold option, you will always get zoom behavior IIRC. However, due to the green button being overridden to be a menu in Tahoe, the button icon may or may not reflect zoom/full screen behavior if you press/release option and may instead show the optional modifier on the options in the pop-up menu.
I do not believe there is a way to disable full screen behavior completely, nor spaces. However, I don't think I'd be able to survive working on a Mac without both so I haven't done a lot of investigation there.
staticassertion
In this case, because I had docked my laptop, the entire window moved to a virtual desktop that didn't actually map to a real desktop. Meaning that the video call continued in a virtual desktop that I literally could not see, that I could not mouse over. I don't know if that's just a multiple-monitor bug or whatever but the behavior is stupid even without that failure mode.
theodric
Here, return to sane behavior: https://blazingtools.com/right_zoom_mac.html
hbn
You're making multiple desktops sound very confusing when it's really not. Every desktop OS has them and macOS' implementation is quite good. You want bad virtual desktops, try Windows.
Maybe you're better suited for an iPad.
staticassertion
I've used multiple desktops before. I love virtual desktops. They really shouldn't be confusing. It's a testament to the bad UX of macs that they are.
The fact that a full screen window creates a whole new virtual desktop is hilarious and I dare you to justify it.
Appeals to "Windows is bad" or whatever mean nothing to me. Stupid comments like "get good" mean nothing to me.
tagirb
Love Linux, been using Manjaro with Gnome for the last 10 years, but need to use Mac on my current job, so I tried to approach this constructively and work around the rough edges: * Rectangle Pro for window management * Better Display for better picture on non-4k display + a couple of more similar tools + retrainig muscle memory from Ctrl to Cmd and Emacs-y instead of Windows-y shortcuts
Feels okay now. Plus native ms365 apps, smooth sleep mode, great hardware and great battery time -- mac has its sweet spots as well.
dsego
> I figured out
Or you could maybe learn how to use the OS, in linux lingo RTFM. I don't want to be rude, but the critique was very flippant, the arguments vague, all about expectations based on years using a different OS, doesn't seem you want to give it a fair chance.
staticassertion
This is pretty funny.
> the arguments vague
I gave both generalized and highly specific cases where I felt the UX failed. I referenced principles of UX as well as literal "here is what my experience was in a concrete story".
> , all about expectations based on years using a different OS
No? I mean, again, funny. I explained how I've been using MacOS for years. Actually a decade, now that I count it out.
> doesn't seem you want to give it a fair chance.
a decade lol
zeppelin101
And if you bring up these points to an Apple fanboy, they'll tell you that "you just don't get it" or "forget all the 'bad Windows habits' and just learn the Apple way of things. It's soooo intuitive!!".
staticassertion
> "forget all the 'bad Windows habits' and just learn the Apple way of things
I mean I'd be willing to say I don't get it, because I sure as fuck do not get it. But I think I'd absolutely reject the "forget all the other stuff, learn this". It's been literally years on a Mac. I remember the frustration of going from Windows to Linux, I look back at that adjustment and laugh, it's hilarious to me that that felt frustrating when I contrast to my Mac adjustment. At least the Linux adjustment was tractable, the Mac adjustment is a total joke.
I actually suspect that people don't "adjust" in the sense of learning how to do things with a mac but instead adjust to not doing things with a mac, like how many mac users I know of outright say they just don't use full screen mode because it's confusing.
sjogress
Personally replaced Windows 10 with Linux Mint on my very computer illiterate mother in law's laptop a few months back. Haven't heard any complaints so far.
Linux is ready for prime time for anyone not bound to Windows/MacOS software.
Personally, I'm still on MacOS for work, but all my personal devices run some form of Linux. It's been liberating to say the least.
AmazingTurtle
I set up windows 11 on a laptop for my dad so he can read emails and browse the web. Came back 3 months later when he told me he couldn't see the PDF files anymore. Turns out he installed THREE different PDF viewers that he randomly found on google, they installed tons of bloatware/spyware, replaced browser toolbars and searches etc. to a point where I decided to just restore from a recovery point. Told him not to download weird stuff (again) and ask me when he needs help.
At that point I questioned myself: I really should have installed linux for him.
jermaustin1
> replaced browser toolbars
This is still a thing? Browsers still have toolbars???
My go to for family is giving them no install rights, and adding a remote desktop app for me to connect to them when they need something to install.
I don't get called very often anymore, and when I do, it's for their work computer or something, to which I say, talk to your IT department, I can't fix that.
dpe82
ChromeOS is a really great option for "just want to read emails and browse the web".
mc32
Browsers today view and can do limited editing for PDFs. No need for a dedicated reader. One does need a dedicated authoring tool if you need to create PDFs from scratch. Most OSes support print to PDF as well if you only need conversion.
fullstop
My daughter did this for her boyfriend's grandma, except she used Kinoite. The immutable aspect of it makes it very difficult to break.
She was over there recently and the downloads folder was littered with malware .exe files, so the grandma is trying her hardest to break it.
abdullahkhalids
UBlock origin will fix most of that problem.
virgil_disgr4ce
> Linux is ready for prime time for anyone not bound to Windows/MacOS software.
I suspect in order for this to be true we'd need a PR campaign that can shift culture on the scale of civil rights.
I'm not trying to be hyperbolic or deride Linux or anything—I agree that technologically it's probably ready. Overall UX I'm slightly skeptical. But the far bigger problem is culture.
There's already been a shift away from "PCs" among younger people. The majority of my kids friends have never touched a "regular computer." I've heard an unsettling number of reports of new hires who have never heard of a spreadsheet.
I'm bringing this up because if kids aren't using PCs as much in the first place and quite literally don't know what an operating system is (and please challenge this assumption; I'm going off of anecdata) it's going to be even harder to try to create cultural awareness and acceptance of linux.
But even disregarding that there would need to be a massive, massive coordinated campaign to create a real culture shift. I'm talking superbowl ads.
Again, not trying to be pessimistic, I'm trying to say that "ready for prime time" at this point has little to do with engineering or even design and far more to do with PR. Once I started launching my own products I quickly discovered (as everyone does) that making the thing is like 5% of the job and the remaining 95% is marketing.
treis
The frustrating thing is that developers are some of the most reluctant to change. I'm sick of fighting docker on my Mac among the many other problems. But if we can't break away nobody else is going to either.
deaddodo
I mean yeah, Chrome and Firefox both run on Linux. And that covers 99% of what most "normies" need.
It's funny when people say Linux is difficult for their grandparents or siblings, when that's the place it covers best. And it keeps them from calling you about random adware/spyware/viruses they accidentally installed.
It's prosumers and professionals that have more issues with Linux, because they tend to rely on proprietary software that's problematic to install/use.
tracker1
Before she passed, I had one of my Grandmothers on Ubuntu for about a decade... I had to set it up for her, and I ran updates every few months for her, but she really didn't have an issue... Her Windows 9x era games even ran under Wine when they wouldn't load on Windows (7 I think), correctly.
Email, browser and a few games... she was pretty happy with it.
dfxm12
I was so close to getting my parents to switch to Ubuntu in the late 2000s. It stuck until my dad needed some piece of software on the home PC for work that only worked with Windows. Today, they have iPhones and they think it will be more convenient to have a Mac to "sync things". Oh well...
microtonal
Today, they have iPhones and they think it will be more convenient to have a Mac to "sync things". Oh well...
And for a very long time they would have been right. But it seems that all the commercial desktop OSes are in the maximize money extraction-phase now.
kn100
Gnome Shell in particular offers a ridiculously coherent, sane window management. Nobody agrees with all the choices the Gnome Team took to get here, but it sure is nice there being one way of doing everything that makes sense contextually.
donmcronald
I don't even know if Gnome and Gnome Shell are the same thing. One thing I do know is the default install of Gnome on Debian 13 leaves you without a dock, without a system tray, and without minimize/maximize buttons. They purposely remove the three most important tools the average user relies on for navigation.
It's like trying to make a car without any round edges because "square edges are better". Good luck with the wheels!
I can fix that somewhat with extensions, but every normal person I know will take one look at the defaults and abandon it. That's a reasonable choice in my opinion. Why use something where the first interaction gives you a clear indication you're going to be fighting against developer ideology?
horsawlarway
I agree.
If you want to customize your DE a lot - Gnome isn't for you.
If you just want a clean and productive environment by default... Gnome is great.
Once you stop fighting it, sigh, and go with the flow... modern Gnome is genuinely pleasant in that I spend almost zero time thinking about it, and shit just works.
I still run other DEs for some specific purposes where "general use" isn't the goal, but I can reliably hand non-technical family members a machine with Gnome and they don't have to come ask me a bunch of questions.
microtonal
My problem with GNOME (after having used it as my main desktop on my Linux systems for many years) is that it removes some really useful features and they are not just expert features, but also features that non-technical users are used to, such as system tray icons and menu bars. You can bring them back with GNOME Extensions, but for instance, the system tray icon extensions are very buggy.
KDE on the other hand just has these and is also great out-of-the-box (I pretty much run stock KDE).
readme
Even gnome tries to be too modern imo. KDE is perfect. I used to feel like KDE was too much like a toy. Now by comparison it looks utilitarian.
Munky-Necan
I've been using KDE for a decade and I completely agree. It used to be only better than GNOME because I could remove features from it and now I run completely stock KDE and it's solid compared to anything else.
dlcarrier
I bought an SBC that booted into Gnome on the official disk image, and it didn't recognize my mouse. It was entirely unusable. In applications that were part of Gnome itself, like the settings menu, it was impossible to navigate using tab and arrow keys.
hollandheese
>settings menu, it was impossible to navigate using tab and arrow keys.
Huh? All you need is tab and the arrow keys to navigate the GNOME Settings app. I'm literally doing that right now. Maybe it was a later addition but it works perfectly fine in GNOME 49.
kilroy123
I think you can absolutely set up a Linux box for grandma / grandpa.
Loudergood
Anyone who lives in the browser really. My mom and my kids all are on Ubuntu these days.
horsawlarway
Anyone who lived in a browser was fine a decade ago.
At this point... it's basically anyone who doesn't want to play competitive mp games with poorly implemented anti-cheat, or who doesn't have niche legacy hardware (ex - inverters, CNCs, oscopes, etc).
Steam tackling the gaming side of things has basically unlocked the entire Windows consumer software ecosystem for linux. It's incredibly easy to spin up windows only applications with nothing but GUI only software on most distros at this point.
Crazy how much better a system with a modern linux kernel and Gnome or KDE is than Windows 11. I'm at the point where I also prefer it to macOS... which is funny since I think Gnome was basically playing "copy apple" for a bit there 5 years ago, but now has really just become the simpler, easier to use DE.
hs86
In the past few years, I’ve started to develop a form of “upgrade dread” when it comes to OS upgrades. What are they going to enshittify now? What are they going to drop support for now?
This somehow excluded Linux and its DEs, and I eagerly read any news, changelogs, and announcements in this space. They’re still not perfect in every aspect, but at least I see things improving instead of public turf wars between departments trying to improve their KPIs.
Why is there an extra URL handler for MS Edge that bypasses the default browser config? Why is the search bar this wide in the default taskbar config instead of showing a simple button? Why are local searches always sent to Bing with no easy way to switch it off or change the search provider?
jraph
> I’ve started to develop a form of “upgrade dread” when it comes to OS upgrades.
I've been going the other way on Linux.
I used to think it might be wise to postpone updates if you were traveling, especially using a rolling distro. Today, I would be quite confident running the updates 10 minutes before leaving.
Granted, this is also because I'm more confident than ever that I could fix most breakages, and worst case the smartphone is there, but I've also not seen big breakages for years.
kccqzy
I have a somewhat opposite experience. I also use a rolling distro, and in the past six months, I've seen wine break, and I've also seen Citrix Workspace break due to a dependency problem (perhaps Mesa?). Granted, these two cases are somewhat unusual because Citrix Workspace is closed source and the software I'm running with wine is also closed source. I rarely experience breakages of open source software other than GNOME extensions.
microtonal
Yep. I run NixOS unstable-small on my ThinkPad and there is rarely breakage in daily updates. If it ever happens while on the go, I can just boot into a previous generation. The immutable OSTree/bootc distros are similar, as well as openSUSE, which uses btrfs snapshots on updates.
Tannic
[dead]
kreco
In all fairness I wouldn't recommend macOS to my grandparent either.
zimmund
Given that a lot of things happen in the browser, I think it wouldn't be too crazy. There are even distros that look like Windows if you're after that. What part of it do you think isn't ready for this scenario? (honestly curious)
olivierestsage
I wouldn't know what to recommend for "just works" photo syncing from the phone à la iCloud.
learn_more
>In total the thickness went down from 7 to 6 pixels, which is a 14% decrease, making it 14% more likely to miss it.
Pedantic, but chance of miss is actually less than 14% more likely since the user's click location is not uniformly random over the thickness area, it's biased toward the center (normally distributed).
eviks
Pedantic, you don't know the distribution, so the chance could be higher
odie5533
The reduction was specifically to the in-window side of the edge, so it's definitely greater than 14%.
Nition
Interesting, I've always approached from the outside in.
adammarples
We can safely assume they're more likely to be close to the edge they're trying to grab than some random location on the window
eviks
Aim wider: why window and not screen?
montroser
Yeah, and not to mention the increase in likelihood click events the user intends for the application will make it through successfully, rather than being stolen by the window manager.
patrickmay
Technically correct is the best kind of correct.
dagi3d
I had similar thought but didn't want to be that guy.
andrei_says_
My take is sometimes we get paid to be that guy and precision has its place and value.
We get lost when being right is seen as having value - instead of improving clarity and precision if needed in a specific context.
undefined
pcurve
Screens are getting bigger and bigger, yet they make things smaller and harder to click on.
Back in the days when it was common for Macintosh to have 640x480 screens (or even smaller), they still fully visible window controls that were impossible to miss.
https://erichelgeson.github.io/blog/2021/03/23/ultimate-syst...
johnwalkr
>Screens are getting bigger and bigger, yet they make things smaller and harder to click on.
And despite things being smaller, there's also white space everywhere so there is less information on your screen.
The trend in UIs is making filenames into discrete icons instead of lists. In outlook this morning all I got 3 attachments and it's 3 icons that all are something almost identical like "<word icon>2026-02-13_A....docx" and I have to hover over them to figure out each filename. I don't get it.
I'm a Solidworks user. It's a 3D CAD program. From about 2012 to 2018, it was unusable with a display higher than 1080p because it did its own bad scaling of UI. Text elements would overlap and be cut off. Since then it works in general but to make 2D drawings I still change to 1080p. Making drawings involves a lot of clicking on lines and vertexes to add dimensions, but the hitboxes are 1 dimension thick, or even 1 single pixel. It's maddening at 4K. There are selection filters that help, but since it's sluggish in general in 4K I just admit defeat and use 1080p.
malfist
I launched spotify on my phone today and it had a grid of playlists I could chose from. The grid showed a maximum of 6 characters per playlist over two lines, but there was certainly a lot of whitespace available, and some random album art that told me nothing.
It was basically unusable, but I'm sure some designer thought it was slick.
Screenshot: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ii0xb6fcnexdfpdudayj1/2026-02...
johnwalkr
I had a new one yesterday. In Apple Music (iPhone), you can long hold on a song or album and press "add to playlist" and then select the playlist. The next action you probably want to do is long hold on another album and tap "add to playlist". You have to wait 2 seconds to do this because a pop-up that says "x added to playlist" appears in the exact location you need to click on. It not only obscures the area, it prevents a tap from registering.
iammattmurphy
That’s actually unreal. You’d think with all the money they steal from artists they could afford UX that isn’t hilariously bad.
thatfunkymunki
this is hilariously, almost unbelievably bad
danw1979
I’ve been a mac user since 1994, system 7, and it feels to me like the overall Mac user experience and reliability (stability, speed, etc) really peaked with Snow Leopard, 10.6.
This probably has a lot to do with the vastly improved hardware design around then - the touchpad specifically on the “blackbook” Core 2 Duo era macbooks was a step change, and they keyboard was pretty great too. Multi-monitor support was fantastic compared to everything else too.
You have to wonder what the design principles of pre-X MacOS paired with modern Apple hardware could achieve.
MSFT_Edging
I'm sorry guys, it's my fault.
My first mac was a 09 MBP with snow leopard, shortly after they updated and started removing random features and closing down customization. For some reason, you couldn't be trusted with more than one right click method anymore.
A solid 15 years later I try macs again, had a nice m3 air at work and bought a personal M4 air. A few months later Tahoe comes out. I bought the thing because modern darkmode macos looked so great and was such a pleasure to use. Now it's full on bubbleboy.
Word must have gotten back to Cupertino that I was back in the ecosystem...
1over137
>...really peaked with Snow Leopard, 10.6.
Which was just a couple of years after the iPhone. After the iPhone, the Mac was the new Apple ][, i.e. something they kept around to make some money, but didn't really care about.
consp
I have the feeling the regions are the same since the EGA's 620x200 (and hercules mode!) days of windows 3.x for almost all operating systems. Some window managers have updated it a bit but if you look at the increase in pixel density (640x480 on a 14" crt is 57ish ppi, and that is being very generous, vs my home display of 110ppi and the retina displays with 200+ ppi) I get the idea the regions have stayed the same in pixel size despite display scaling and such.
Or we all go (back) to tiling window managers and get rid of all the resizing with the press of a key, or even no press.
omnifischer
> Screens are getting bigger and bigger, yet they make things smaller and harder to click on.
Totally true. I have some some UX designers daily driving 4k monitors with 2k resolution to see things clearly!!
2bitencryption
The interesting part, for anyone who actually reads the article - the change was fixed in an RC and then reverted in the final release.
Which implies there was some regression, some issue, some incorrect behavior or negative impact. One has to wonder… what could it have been? What could the issue with having a more accurate clickbox for the corner of the window possibly be?
galad87
It broke some NSWindow styles: https://developer.apple.com/forums/thread/814798
GuB-42
It can be some technical detail.
For example: imagine you have 2 windows, the lower right corner of one window almost touching the upper right corner of the other, so that the bounding rectangles overlap but the graphics don't.
With the inaccurate "false square" corners, you just had to check the bounding rectangles, to know which window to resize, now you have to check the actual graphics (or more likely, a mask).
I am not saying it is the problem, but that's the kind of thing that can happen. Or it may be a simple bug, like a crash, memory corruption, an unhandled exception, the usual stuff, but they couldn't fix it in time and it is better to revert instead of leaving the buggy code or pushing an untested fix.
blindriver
Just revert the code back to pre-26! This is ridiculous, it can't possibly be this hard and if it is, it just points to the degradation in the quality of Apple software! This is maddening!
igregoryca
This is already the pre-26 bounding box, isn't it? It's the new graphics that don't line up. (Not a great excuse, but the graphics are here to stay at least for a little while.)
mvdtnz
Pre-Tahoe windows didn't have these stupid round corners (which is the ACTUAL bug which should be fix).
bandrami
> it can't possibly be this hard
Whenever I find myself saying this I remind myself it can in fact be this hard.
msephton
I think it shows how difficult it is to ship a seemingly easy thing inside the Apple machine.
I'm more interested in how or why this bug was approved up be worked on so quickly after it was surfaced, rather than other longstanding and arguably more impactful bugs.
StilesCrisis
It's because the bug got publicity. Apple marketing prioritizes what does and doesn't get built. Someone saw bad publicity on the front page of HN and requested a fix.
1over137
Exactly. It got a lot of publicity, even inside Apple.
nozzlegear
The answer is probably a ho-hum combination of different teams work on different issues, and this one having annoyed one of the devs who could work on it.
radley
Most likely (and natural): they tested it publically and the response wasn't positive, so they held it back until they could do it better.
pdhborges
Maybe they reverted it because they are already planning to get rid of the super rounded corners!
cardanome
The AI reverted the change and no one does proper code reviews anymore so it went into prod.
adithyassekhar
Nah then it won't show up in the known issues section. I hope.
undefined
anematode
Maybe it was just an oversight in the merge process? e.g. the diff was applied only to the RC and not to the release branch? idk
userbinator
What astounds me the most about this whole thing is that the sort of hit testing involved here is a solved problem in UI, and has been for decades, yet there are still plenty of others here and elsewhere arguing about how it isn't. Even with those horrid rounded corners it's not hard, as shown in the article, which makes me wonder whether there is some internal fight between those who didn't want rounded corners (developers?) and hence tried their hardest to make it buggier, and those who wanted them (designers?), with lots of back-and-forth that eventually gave us this outcome. A disturbing amount of time and $$$ was probably spent on it, as is usual for any bureaucracy.
robocat
Mobile Safari has some horrific hit-testing for touches. There's plenty of places where touching near a control incorrectly snaps the tap to the control (sometimes with rather nasty usability consequences).
Ideally there should be some way to control the tapzone within CSS.
Last time I needed to fix the problem on a page I was responsible for it required adding an HTML element, which was far from ideal. I seem to recall I also had to explicitly add an onclick handler too (registering an onclick handler silently modifies touch behaviour on Safari - a nasty hidden side effect). There's some new badness with stealing taps in iOS26's Safari - ugggh.
lunar_rover
"Ideally there should be some way to control the tapzone within CSS."
Sounds like a recipe for troubles. Web UI is designed to be scalable, why not scale to platform standard sizes automatically?
layer8
> Ideally there should be some way to control the tapzone within CSS.
Please, no. Let’s not have every site react differently to how I tap a control. HTML/CSS/JS already delegate too many aspects to the application that should firmly belong in the realm of browser/OS.
robocat
Developers can control the tapzone already - by using an invisible clickable div and some workarounds. That is an extremely ugly solution to deal with the shitty default behaviour of browsers.
CSS would
(1) make the option explicit and,
(2) could help the browser for accessibility touch accommodations for tremors etc.
(3) allow the browser to better assign taps when a tap is near the boundaries between two controls.
I'm guessing you don't have expertise in this area.
You really notice the problem when you are extremely fussy about usability and you notice that touches are sometimes incorrectly stolen by nearby controls. This is a a problem when controls are closely adjacent (e.g. a search button following an input) or when controls overlap (e.g. a floating button above a textarea).
The problem also happens with native controls e.g. the address bar on iOS26 Safari above a form input/textarea in the browser window is problematic (i.e. it is a systematic fault with iOS). Can't really workaround that. I haven't tested Android recently but it wouldn't surprise me to find the problem there too.
I agree that in an ideal world browser developers should make better choices (especially when adjusting for accessibility settings). I agree we shouldn't give website developers abusive CSS settings.
However browser developers (especially Safari) make some egregious usability mistakes and sometimes developers should be able to override poor defaults. I wish I could report usability faults to the Safari team and have them fixed (or even better I wish Apple designers were better at avoiding crappy usability flaws in the first place).
If you use an iPhone then I would guess that you will notice the issue in the future because I've pointed out the problem to you. I hope it doesn't annoy you tooo much..
Edit: Also this is a horrific kind of usability flaw. Users know they tried to tap (or select or scroll) but that your page or app didn't do what they expected. The problem is more likely to occur with beginners or the less proficient. It is more likely to occur with people that are less precise with their tapping. Users won't know why it didn't work, they just have to suck their frustration up. They won't report anything useful to developers. Tooling won't capture the problem. Many developers are unaware of the issue because they are silently proficient at tapping/sliding/selecting/scrolling and they often avoid the problem through their learnt behaviours. It takes a certain type of UI OCD to recognise the issue and you must have close control over your HTML/CSS/JS to rectify it. Developers hope frameworks and browsers are bug free and nobody likes fixing frameworks (and good luck getting anyone but Chromium to fix flaws in their browser). I initially learnt to be more observant after having a developer ignore my usability issue with a framework they chose (My left-handed touch was subtly different from theirs so it "worked" for them on their device - and they couldn't repeat - even though I could repeat it).
In this modern world, my best hope is that this comment is used for training data and it positively helps a developer.
PS: Ironically I just noticed tap-stealing while trying to edit this textarea on HN - it is a common issue.
yard2010
Yesterday I thought the same thing about web app UI - solved problem, why GCP has to re-invent it and do it worse? Same thinking applies here - is it due to a fight between developers and products?
ghosty141
It's obviously not as easy as you make it sound, it was reverted since it broke some existing apps.
tzury
The updates shipped by apple introducing more bugs every cycle. It is across the board, macos, ios and ipad os. The fact there is a group inside apple, that is capable of standing against common sense and users best interest for so long, tells how wrong things are internally.
It is the steve balmer - satya nadella moment of apple.
1. Plugging my laptop to the same desktop screens requires rearranging displays almost every time. 2. Airdrop stops working for no apparent reason. 3. Copy paste across devices no longer a stable mechanism. 4. The stupid new preview app crashing if you scroll pdf pages too fast. And on and on. Those are all newly introduced critical bugs i have been facing since that flameboyant liquid glass virus took over.
Apple is a sillicon valley pioneer from the generation of hewlett packard (before it was called HP) bell labs and others. Watching a decay at its beginning is mind boggling and tragic.
noname120
For the first one (and all other screen-related bugs) you can use BetterDisplay to fix it: https://betterdisplay.pro/
debesyla
Also MacOS completely crashes if you have ethernet cable connected and decide to also turn on the WiFi. No "hey, choose whatever you wish" or "hey, disconnect from ethernet first" errors, just complete crash to reboot, lol.
russelg
I'll chime in and say personally I do this all the time and have never experienced a system crash from this.
dingdingdang
I abandoned MacOS back in 2018 since I found it too quirky and poweruser-unfriendly (the main thing that comes to mind is neatly indicated by todays other MacOS related frontpage article on resizing). Now we can add overt instability to the list.
1718627440
Honestly, why should you choose something? I regularly use both. Also multiple WiFi chips are quite handy.
jakub_g
Since we talk resizing windows, for months I was _sometimes_ unable to resize windows at all, and couldn't figure out why. I thought it was a random bug of macOS.
Finally I realized the issue: if a window spans across two displays, it won't resize. Insane!
(I have an external monitor up, laptop down, and it's easy to move a window such that it stretches a few pixels from monitor to the laptop. No resize for you!)
jeroenhd
Window management isn't macOS' strong suit, but external monitors make it act absolutely crazy. Connecting monitors will do anything from keeping all windows in the same position to restoring previous positions to launching them across screens, sometimes completely outside visible screen space, seemingly arbitrarily.
I get why Apple wants you to make every window either a small tile or a full screen application now, their window manager simply can't cope with anything else.
Whatever they're doing is somehow worse than both Windows and the major Linux desktop environments. Maybe there's some obscure preference among old school macOS users that like having their windows placed so that only a small corner pokes out of the bottom left when attaching an external monitor?
sensanaty
On the topic of multi monitor messiness, NOTHING gets my blood boiling quite like the taskbar (or whatever it's called, the bottom application drawer) moving between monitors, seemingly arbitrarily
Keep your cursor hovered over the bottom of the 2nd monitor? It moves. Want to move it back? I have tried everything I could think of to try get it back, I still to this day after 5 years of being on Mac because work forces it on me cannot see the logic or heuristic it chooses for when to move the fucking dock. I swear it's basically random, and it's a daily occurrence for me that I have to just shake my cursor violently to get the stupid thing to eventually move.
The worst part is you can't even disable this dumbass behavior! You can't tell it "Hey, dock should ONLY be on monitor 1", so you just have to live with this anti feature
jeroenhd
As far as I can tell, the dock appears on either the left/rightmost display (when docked to the side) or on the main display.
What is the "main display"? You can find out by going to settings > displays, where you find a "use as" dropdown that can be set to "mirror", "main display", or "extended display". If you want to move the dock, change the main display. This also affects a few other, smaller things.
I personally put the dock to the side so it doesn't take up precious space (windows don't seem to want to cover the dock if it's at the bottom, even with the setting for that disabled).
pixelesque
I remember early OS X (10.4 / 10.5? - damn, that was 20 years ago?!) with a laptop and external monitor.
It was farcical, as the menu bar was always only on the primary monitor, so you had to use/click menus on that monitor, even if the actual window the menu was for was on the other monitor.
Around 10.7 or so they started putting menus on both monitors at the same time to at least make this scenario a bit more sane.
jakub_g
Oh, the Dock. Try to have a setup where you have two displays vertically, BUT you want the Toolbar and Dock both be on the top one, stably - impossible.
Workaround I found: you can configure the monitors to be a pattern like this instead:
1
2
sheept
It seems to be a common issue, and despite googling I wasn't able to find a solution that worked (back in Aug '25). For some reason, it does not happen if you position the dock on the left/right side rather than the bottom
skydhash
If your monitors are arranged horizontally, you just need to touch the bottom part of the screen you want the dock to be on (I set mine to autohide). If they are arranged vertically, it's best to have them in zigzag or put the dock to the sides, not the bottom.
It's infuriating, which is why I prefer to use spotlight (actually Alfred) or the app switcher.
Forgeties79
You can turn this off in the settings, forgot exactly where. I actually found after 1-2mo I preferred not being able to haha
bsimpson
I didn't think a window could span two screens - I thought it only appeared on the one that had most of the window.
LeifCarrotson
Easy to stretch a few pixels? Easier to move windows with super+arrows so they snap perfectly to the monitor borders, and then you'd never have this issue. I rarely drag windows "by hand" (by mouse) anymore!
rezonant
It turns out the reason they reverted is likely regressions as noted here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46999858
alin23
Damn, so this is the thing that caused all the floating windows to become unclickable and impossible to interact with... I'm the creator of the apps from https://lowtechguys.com/ and I was replying to 10-15 support emails per day, all week, because of this.
It's a bit scary to see that the software we rely on every day is such a complex behemoth that even a seemingly small change can have so large repercussions.
The problem is that AI only helps add even more complexity since it's so simple to just add more code now that we don't have to write it.
layer8
It feels like Apple has gone deeper and deeper into tech debt over at least the past decade, to the point where I see little prospect of their software reaching former quality levels again.
1970-01-01
This is exactly the type of issue Steve Jobs would notice and then you're fired. The UI is the main event. If you can't get it right you don't work on it ever again.
pmdr
Well Cook's Apple is mostly about money coming in, so as long as that's happening he's not obsessing over quality.
lenerdenator
All they have to do is make a better UX than Google and Microsoft. As it turns out, that particular bar is at the bottom of the Challenger Deep, so they treat it as such. Money spent on making sure your UX passes basic muster is money not given to a series of retirement and pension funds that make up the bulk of shareholders for companies like Apple.
What do you want more: decent UX, or the Smiths to be able to sell their house and swing on - and off - the course at some golf-based retirement village in Florida?
meffmadd
Here is what I don’t get tho: you have UX designers/engineers creating a new interface. What do you tell them? Just to do whatever? They probably spent months designing the new interface but why not fix this? They must have seen it is unusable…
dgxyz
It's bad when stock Gnome is better. That's where I am now.
accrual
Switched to KDE Plasma last month and very pleased I can have square-corner windows again.
krisknez
I had a hard time with Gnome but now I got used to it and it's amazing for me. I just can't believe they still haven't implemented scrolling speed setting...
jeroenhd
Gnome had a scroll speed setting but it broke and disappeared somewhere around the switch to Wayland without getting replaced.
Gnome says libinput should deal with scroll speed. Libinput says GTK+ should deal with it. Patches have been lying around for both but neither has gained any traction.
I like Gnome's DE in general but this issue showcases the rough edges of open source collaboration the Gnome project is infamous for.
Even KWin's (original?) implementation of the feature wasn't great and caused issues with applications, apparently: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/merge_requests/4672#not... Broken as though it might be, at least they're trying something, which I appreciate more as an end user than the complete lack of scroll settings.
dgxyz
Corners are great aren't they! :)
EnPissant
KDE plasma is the best DE that exists right now (once you configure it to mimic gnome 2).
1718627440
> once you configure it to mimic gnome 2
Why is it better than Gnome 2 then? This is what I prefer (it's called Mate now).
undefined
shiroiuma
Gnome 1 had the best design of all the Gnome versions.
jazzyjackson
I love gnome, at least how it's implemented by recent Fedoras. Whenever I go back to Mac I wonder why spotlight and mission control are two different functions
jorvi
Spotlight and Mission Control (and the dock) being separate is good, and them being tied together on Gnome is horrible.
I just want to type which app to launch or do some quick math or search for something, I don't need my windows and UI to fly in 14 different directions and then back again every time I need to do those things. Ditto for just want to lazily do something on my dock with the mouse. It's seriously one of the most ill designed off-putting UX things about Gnome.
kiwijamo
Agreed. Even Windows has some nice stuff when it comes to windows management IMHO. Every time I end up on macOS I miss the various Windows/GNOME behaviours e.g. window snapping to the right/left half, pressing the Win key to see all open apps, maximise buttons that doesn't put the whole app into full screen mode, etc.
terhechte
I agree that macOS has become worse, however your examples don't really count:
Window snapping was implemented some time ago: https://www.macrumors.com/2024/06/12/macos-sequoia-window-ti...
Instead of win key, you can press F3, or just set a hotkey that works for you in the System Preferences
Instead of clicking the red maximize button, you can double-click the window header / title. This will use an algorithm to try to resize the window to the best size for its content.
msephton
Option-click green button does window maximise (normal click does full-screen)
ed_mercer
You can also hold ALT and press the green button to mazimze.
StilesCrisis
Maximize is green. (Any chance you might be color blind?)
Maken
Gnome has the same issue, it's just less noticeable because the radius of the round corners is smaller. The draggable area of a window is 90% their drop shadow.
Except when it's a Qt application, which has no drop shadows because client-side decorations shenanigans.
ctbeiser
I have a guess as to why this fix was delayed—on the release candidate, you weren't able to resize windows in Stickies. I filed a bug for it. This felt like a last-minute addition—the previous betas didn't have the 'fix.'
Let's think about why: if the width of the handle is based on the radius, and the radius is 0 for a window, there's nowhere for the grab handle to be.
I assume this wasn't the only app with fully square windows, and so the fix actually caused more problems. Respinning a release candidate is expensive, and they were out of time for this one. So the patch gets reverted and the fix gets iterated on for the next release, where they'll presumably figure something clean out that's conditional on exact window shape.
26.4 could be the spring hardware release or it could be the spring services release. I would give it a 2/3 chance of landing in 26.4, and a 1/3 of being moved to 26.5.
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Since the first taste of Linux WMs, I believe the best and only good way of handling window move and resize is super+lmb/rmb respectively. No more pixel-perfect header/corner sniping!
https://www.reddit.com/r/Fedora/comments/qv0vmz/missing_supe...