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Doohickey-d
The lid angle sensor is also serialized to the motherboard: you cannot replace it, or the motherboard, without performing calibration, which can be performed by an apple authorized service provider, or alternatively, in Europe (and elsewhere where Apple offers parts for self-service repair), you can purchase the sensor from Apple, connect the machine to the internet after replacing it, to then perform the calibration, only if the sensor was purchased from Apple.
So the hardware is capable of performing the calibration, Apple just does not graciously grant you the right to install a recycled or third party sensor in your machine.
https://www.ifixit.com/Answers/View/759262/Torn+Lid+angle+se...
userbinator
They call it "calibration" when it's presumably nothing more than writing a serial number to an EEPROM somewhere. See also the related story of sabotaging iPad screens to work but subtly degrade when the serials don't match, and cameras that only semi-work when swapped (with genuine original Apple parts). This type of pathological lying that Apple loves to do is why I'll never buy or recommend to others any of their products.
bri3d
https://github.com/Vladislav98759/Macbook-Lid-Angle-Sensor-C...
No, it actually does set the zero point.
userbinator
Interesting but that proves the point even more --- it's hardly "calibration" when it effectively does nothing more than write constants to the EEPROM. They certainly have enough processing power in the machine to do that automatically too without needing anything more, but instead they make everyone go through a whole song-and-dance to do this trivial process; which doesn't even require Apple's involvement.
"Set the angle to 0 (closed) and press Enter. Open 10 degrees and press Enter. Repeat for every 10 degrees from 0 to 170" would be an example of actual calibration.
Bud
[dead]
Nathan2055
Okay so here's the argument I've heard: if arbitrary replacements of the lid sensor were possible, it would be feasible to create a tampered sensor that failed to detect the MacBook closing, thus preventing it from entering sleep mode.
This could then be combined with some software on the machine to turn a MacBook into a difficult to detect recording device, bypassing protections such as the microphone and camera privacy alerts, since the MacBook would be closed but not sleeping.
Additionally, since the auto-locking is also tied to triggering sleep mode, it would be possible to gain access to a powered off device, switch the sensors, wait for the user to attempt to sleep mode the device, and then steal it back, completely unlocked with full access to the drive.
Are these absolutely ridiculous, James Bond-tier threat assessments? Yes, absolutely. But they're both totally feasible (and not too far off from exploits I've heard about in real life), and both are completely negated by simply serializing the lid sensor.
Should Apple include an option, buried in recoveryOS behind authentication and disk unlock steps like the option to allow downgrades and allow kernel extensions, that enables arbitrary and "unauthorized" hardware replacements like this? Yes, they really should. If implemented correctly, it would not harm the security profile of the system while still preventing the aforementioned exploits.
There are good security reasons for a lot of what Apple does. They just tend to push a little too far beyond mitigating those security issues into doing things which start to qualify as vendor lock-in.
I really wish people would start to recognize where the line should be drawn, rather than organizing into "security of the walled garden" versus "freedom of choice" groups whenever these things get brought up. You can have both! The dichotomy itself is a fiction perpetuated to defend the status quo.
ryandrake
The line should be drawn by the owner of the device.
As the user and owner of the product, I should be the sole decider about my own security posture, not some company who doesn’t know my use case or needs.
It’s crazy how we’ve managed to normalize the manufacturer making these kinds of blanket decisions on our behalf.
clickety_clack
Yes it’s wild. Imagine if we decided that people can’t be relied on to install good locks for their doors, so we gave the government responsibility for locking and unlocking your door every time you wanted to leave your house.
A lid sensor is just so peripheral. Where do the vendor lock-ins end?
tpmoney
> As the user and owner of the product, I should be the sole decider about my own security posture, not some company who doesn’t know my use case or needs.
It's not so cut and dry though. The "user" and the "owner" of a product are not always the same person, but hardware security impacts the "user" more than the "owner".
vlovich123
How does Apple know the owner of the product has authorized the HW change?
There’s a secondary argument you could make here whereby because the replacements must be valid Apple parts that have uniform behavior and tolerances, the strength of the secondary market is stronger and Apple products have a stronger resale value as a result, because you’re not going to encounter a MacBook with an arbitrary part replaced that you as the second-hand buyer know nothing about (this is why the secondary market for cars doesn’t work without the ability to lookup the car history by VIN).
amrocha
Does your grandma decide her own “security posture”? Does she even know what that means?
jbs789
You do get to decide (buy another product with a different value proposition).
isaacremuant
It's not that crazy when people seem to cheer for a nanny state at every turn. Specially if said nanny state bombards them with propaganda about all the dangers they'll face if they just don't "comply".
1984 references may have seen farfetched but after the suppression of rights using covid as an excuse people have little to no recourse to claim control back. Apple was always famous for their walled garden and tight control, but we have Google becoming like apple (can't install things in your device unless you go to them with your private details), ID to track your movements because "protect the children" (effectively blocking news even), chat control (very similar to installing a camera in your home and recording all your conversations).
Corps and governments are relying on each other to strengthen their control and it's not a surprise.
bri3d
Keeping a victim device unlocked when the lock state is responsible for encryption key state is a totally legitimate risk.
With that being said, I don’t think Apple see this specific part as a security critical component, because the calibration is not cryptographic and just sets some end point data. Apple are usually pretty good about using cryptography where they see real security boundaries.
echelon
Don't invent reasons for Apple to continue to have a stranglehold over their monopoly of critical computing infrastructure.
Companies as big as Apple and Google that provide such immensely important platforms and devices should have their hands tied by every major government's regulatory bodies to keep the hardware open for innovation without taxation and control.
We've gone from open computing to serfdom in the last 20 years, and it's only getting worse as these companies pile on trillions after trillions of nation state equivalent market cap.
arcticbull
It doesn't need to be encrypted if it's one-time programmable. The calibration data is likely written into efuses which are physically burned and cannot be reset.
KurSix
A properly gated, user-authorized override in recoveryOS or similar would give advanced users and third-party repair shops a legitimate path without blowing up the security model
raxxorraxor
Then Apply tying the angle sensor to microphone status is a security issue. I would read that as a cheap excuse to be honest.
hayleox
If repair shops can buy the $130 calibration machine, presumably the super spy in this story (who for some reason couldn't steal the data while they were replacing the lid sensor, nor can they steal the data when the laptop's in use, but somehow can steal the data when it's idle with the lid down) can also get a calibration machine, and then deliberately set the zero point incorrectly.
naikrovek
Yes.
“Sure, you can borrow my laptop. It’s fine. Take it home. I promise not to spy on you while the lid is closed. I promise not to record aaaaaany audio or anything! And I definitely won’t hear any conversation that contains information that I’ll use to stalk you later!”
There are a million ways that some nefarious person could spy on another, but at least this isn’t one of them.
And I am a very suspicious person, thanks to some eye opening experiences that I’ve had. When someone says that they want to do something that not a lot of people want to do, I immediately wonder how they will use that against myself or someone else. Because that has happened multiple times to me.
I also hate that I am suspicious of people who want to at least have the opportunity to fully own their devices; something that is perfectly reasonable to want, but I am. What would that additional ability do for them? What will they be capable of doing that they can’t do now? How and when will they use it to get what they want out of someone? Or out of me?
If you don’t think like this, I really envy you. For the longest time, every teacher, every supervisor, every commander, every non-familial authority figure I had until I was probably 35, used and manipulated me for the purpose of advancing themselves. Every single one. The ones in the military didn’t even attempt to hide it.
I’m so scarred because of people convincing me to help them screw me over that I no longer trust anyone who is concerned about things like laptop lid angle sensors. Because who are you trying to screw over and why does that angle sensor stand in your way?
AnonHP
> When someone says that they want to do something that not a lot of people want to do, I immediately wonder how they will use that against myself or someone else. Because that has happened multiple times to me.
I’m intrigued. Would you be comfortable sharing some of these real experiences here (with sensitive details fudged/removed)?
KurSix
I think it's possible to advocate for device ownership and repair rights without having malicious intent
commandersaki
I mean nobody expected pager bombs, but here we are.
saurik
If you have access to my laptop long and deep enough to replace the hinge sensor with a fake one that prevents the lid from closing as a way to turn it into a recording device -- which of course would also require installing software on it -- instead of just putting a tiny microphone into it (or my bag), you are simultaneously a genius and dumb. And if you really are going to that level of effort, hoping that I don't notice my laptop failing to go to sleep when I close it so you might be able to steal it is crazy when you can 100% just modify the hardware in the keyboard to log my password.
Hell: what you really should do is swap my entire laptop with a fake one that merely shows me my login screen (which you can trivially clone off of mine as it happily shows it to you when you open it ;P) and asks for my password, at which point you use a cellular modem to ship it back to you. That would be infinitely easier to pull off and is effectively game over for me because, when the laptop unlocks and I don't have any of my data (bonus points if I am left staring at a gif of Nedry laughing, though if you showed an Apple logo of death you'd buy yourself multiple days of me assuming it simply broke), it will be too late: you'll have my password and can unlock my laptop legitimately.
> There are good security reasons for a lot of what Apple does.
So, no: these are clearly just excuses, sometimes used to ply users externally (such as yourself) and sometimes used to ply their own engineers internally (such as wherever you heard this), but these mitigations are simply so ridiculously besides the point of what they are supposedly actually securing that you simply can't take them seriously if you put more than a few minutes of thought into how they work... either the people peddling them are incompetent or malicious, and, even if you choose to believe the former over the latter, it doesn't make the shitty end result for the owner feel any better.
moshib
I can imagine a different attack vector: A malicious actor doing laptop repairs can absolutely replace the hinge sensor and install software on it. They could draw in people by offering cheaper prices, then steal their info or use it to setup more complex scams.
The counterpoint to this is that car body shops can also plant recording devices in your car. This is true, but the signal-to-noise ratio in terms of stealing valuable data is much lower. I don't have data to back this up, but I assume way more people use their laptops for online purchases and accessing their bank account than doing the same with phone calls in the car.
Shorel
Your laptop can be compromised during a trip to a foreign state, by state actors.
Travelling back you would notice a microphone, and would notice nothing on the laptop.
knowaveragejoe
> This could then be combined with some software on the machine to turn a MacBook into a difficult to detect recording device, bypassing protections such as the microphone and camera privacy alerts, since the MacBook would be closed but not sleeping.
Isn't this already possible if the MB is connected to a power source like a portable battery?
Cthulhu_
Negative take: Vendor lock-in
Positive take: discourage theft; not only is the device locked down / encrypted and you can't just wipe / reinstall it, you can't even break it down for parts.
When the iphones etc first came out, they were a very attractive target for theft. Come to think of it, that's one reason why I was hesitant to get an iphone back then.
dwood_dev
I used to have an extremely negative view on all this serial number pairing that Apple does, then I found out why.
Within mainland China, Apple was facing fraud of having their devices purchased, stripped for genuine parts, and then rebuilt with knockoffs and sold as new to unsuspecting victims within China or returned. This whole thing that we hate in the west was in response to that fraud.
I don't like it at all, but it's not all Apple being assholes.
josephcsible
That would be a good argument for Apple showing a warning every time it's powered on or something, but not for it refusing to work altogether.
specialist
Yes and: Requiring genuine parts reduces risk of silent hardware pwnage. Which is a no-negotiable requirement these days.
That said...
I demand that Apple makes genuine parts available to end users and 3rd repair shops.
And being 100% pro Right to Repair, I support repairs with non-genuine parts.
For peace of mind, have your gear repaired by Apple. For the cost sensitive and tinkerers, you have options.
GuB-42
The reason for that scam is that Apple doesn't make it easy to get genuine parts, so they have to be harvested from existing devices.
I am sure that if the parts were available to anyone from Apple at a reasonable price (like Fairphone or Framework), these scammers would be out of business soon enough. Who would insist on genuine parts and yet choose a shady supplier if it was easy to buy from the manufacturer directly?
zdw
A lot of "new" products in the "bargain" category can have remanufactured parts, even without telling the end users.
For example, in this DankPods video he pulls apart two cube speakers, and while they look mostly the same on the outside, one has a Nokia-sized lithium battery that is directly soldered to, and the other has a swollen pouch pack: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfnabYBtJ2I&t=325s
Unfortunately end users can't tell whether they got a "race to the bottom" item, so as much as I'd like cheap repairs, it seems like those also come with a huge amount of buyer beware that they may not know about.
AuthAuth
Sounds like more of an excuse than a reason.
jijijijij
> Within mainland China, Apple was facing fraud of having their devices purchased, stripped for genuine parts, and then rebuilt with knockoffs and sold as new to unsuspecting victims within China or returned.
This doesn't make any sense. If Apple wasn't making genuine parts extremely valuable by locking down the hardware, making this proposed scam economically attractive, there would be no such scam. Circular logic.
bigstrat2003
That is certainly the argument that is made. I don't believe it, however. I don't for one second think that Apple did that for the benefit of users and not as a way to turn an extra buck.
arcane23
>discourage theft
Does it though? Are there statistics that clearly show devices aren't being stolen anymore because they cannot monetize them anymore?
The way I see it the only thing this does is make you feel better the thief cannot monetize it, or use it, but it does nothing to prevent the theft which is really a moot point in the grand scheme of things. We end up paying in this way, of not having the freedom to easily and cheaply replace parts, while being comforted that even though they still are getting stolen from us, whoever steals them cannot use/monetize them. Which is quite primitive in a sense, and I do not think it's worth it. But that's just me.
jajuuka
According to the GSMA last year phone theft (which arguably has much more part serialization and anti-theft measures implemented) has been a steady 1% of smart phone users worldwide. It does not seem these attempts to lock down systems are successful in reducing theft. https://www.gsma.com/solutions-and-impact/industry-services/...
However I wonder if they have had an impact on data and financial theft. Which things like part serialization wouldn't affect but system security measures would.
phoronixrly
Yeah, imagine a world where people who are forced to steal are competent enough not only to know which phones they can sell, but to be able to guess the make and model in the middle of a mugging
londons_explore
Anti-theft isn't the reason.
Apple could easily have a dialogue that pops up saying:
"The XYZ sensor in this device is still registered to a device attached to robert8 @icloud.com. Please log into that account now to authorize the component swap".
Whilst the swap isn't authorised, firmware would power the system off after 10 mins, making any stolen laptop parts useless.
SchemaLoad
That is how it works as of recently https://support.apple.com/en-au/120610
koiueo
> discourage theft
Thieves once broke into my car. They stole everything, but then have thrown away things they don't need: which was everything except iPad Pro M1. They have even thrown away an e-ink device which was as expensive.
Many signs suggest that the thieves were in an organized group regularly operating in the area, and I'm certain they knew what they were doing.
My iPad has never appeared online after the theft according to my iCloud.
This was in 2024.
I'm confident this iPad didn't just become a paperweight for the organized group of thieves. But it would become a paperweight for me if, say, the infrared camera went off due to a water damage and I wasn't willing to pay Apple a hefty price for the motherboard replacement.
2OEH8eoCRo0
They are still a target for theft
https://www.economist.com/interactive/britain/2025/08/17/the...
> More recently London has become known as the “phone-snatching capital of Europe”. If the victims manage to track their devices, the goods are most likely to turn up in China.
> Globalisation created the supply chain that allows each iPhone—assembled from nearly 3,000 components—to reach the hands of a consumer. The same forces inverted see that phone yanked out of it, re-exported and broken apart again.
seabass-labrax
I wouldn't personally trust the Economist with this kind of thing, at least not compared to publications by technically-minded experts that have been shared elsewhere on this thread, such as the Register. The phone-snatching is real, but the effectiveness of this theft in creating usable spare parts, or of the efficacy Apple's software in reducing said theft, is much harder to determine.
deepsun
Theft of what, sorry not clear. Thieves keep stealing macbooks no prob.
commandersaki
I read somewhere the angle sensor also has a privacy feature of cutting off microphone at hardware level. This is probably the main reason for parts pairing.
serf
... and this can't done with the myriad of other ways a lid can know it's closed.. why?
Presumably MacBooks still have a big un-shuttered camera on the screen? Presumably there is still a light sensor?
I get the idea of parts pairing as a theft/parts-out deterrent -- I don't get it as a method of cutting features on existing machines. "We need the lid angle sensor to be valuable, so let's cut out our eyes and seal our ears."
KurSix
iPhones were like gold on the black market
avianlyric
Mostly this is a consequence of laziness rather than a proper attempt at serialisation. The “calibration data” for most small sensors in Apple devices is stored in a centrally in a crypto blob to provide guarantees around component combinations, with sensor serial numbers used as lookup keys. It not usual for the sensor calibration data to computed on a component-by-component basis with calibration blob being computed _before_ the machine is assembled, based on the serial numbers the machine should contain.
So adding a new sensor means new serial number, which means the data lookup now fails. Resulting in the new sensor not working at all.
The pre-computed calibration blobs are neat little manufacturing trick to provide an end-of-line QA check, proving that a specific machine only contains the specific components it’s supposed to have. But it means the setup has no proper fallback mechanism for generating new blobs outside of the manufacturing process.
I personally think it’s a travesty that Apple hasn’t properly addressed this issue and enabled proper 3rd party repairs. But I think it worth recognising that the serialisation mechanism doesn’t exist primarily to prevent repairs, it exists to provide a form of cryptographic integrity check of the manufacturing process. Preventing repairs is just a “happy accident”.
maxdamantus
> But I think it worth recognising that the serialisation mechanism doesn’t exist primarily to prevent repairs, it exists to provide a form of cryptographic integrity check of the manufacturing process.
What, you mean in case the parts of two machines accidentally fall out and fall back in to the other machine on the production line or during shipping?
Of course it's to prevent unauthorised repairs. There's no feasible way for the parts to be physically swapped other than someone intentionally doing a repair.
It doesn't even seem like a very good form of QA, since someone without repair experience can always try to take something apart and put it back together. Whether the serials match has little to do with whether the machine is currently assembled correctly.
avianlyric
> What, you mean in case the parts of two machines accidentally fall out and fall back in to the other machine on the production line or during shipping?
No, in case the wrong parts end up in the final machine during assembly. A machines exact components are determined ahead of time, possibly before the individual parts even arrive at the assembly line. Cryptographically binding them together makes it impossible for tampering or mistakes during assembly process to result in unexpected parts ending up in a machine.
How do think a company like Apple protects their supply chain against malicious external actors, or just suppliers taking shortcuts to make a quick buck hoping nobody will notice that what they provided and what they promised they would provide don’t actually line up?
> Of course it's to prevent unauthorised repairs. There's no feasible way for the parts to be physically swapped other than someone intentionally doing a repair.
You don’t honestly think that a company like Apple simply trusts their suppliers and assembly contractors, and doesn’t take steps to make sure every individual component in their devices is exactly the component they specified, and absolutely nothing else?
KurSix
Stuff like this makes Right to Repair not just a consumer issue
polisaez
Is there anything that can be replaced on a MacBook?
swiftcoder
Not really. You used to be able to replace the SSD (albeit with another proprietary module), but even that is soldered down as of a few years back
user3939382
Louis Rossman has talked about this extensively and I believe come up with a solution.
jojobas
The only true solution is to vote with your wallet.
moralestapia
Weird to be mad at this when you didn't know it was a thing 10 minutes ago ...
kulahan
You can dislike something in general and simply point out when a scenario matches what you dislike, as is happening here.
moralestapia
You can't repair what doesn't exist, though.
postalcoder
To those wondering why the MacBook would have a sensor for this, it’s likely there to support Desk View[0]. It shows the items on your desk in a geometrically correct, top-down view. Knowing the angle of the display is very helpful when applying keystone correction.
OJFord
Simpler than that I think - when do you turn off the screen or sleep? Because it isn't fully closed, but you want to be able to 'privacy-duck' the screen a bit before that, and having a sensor rather than just a fixed angle switch makes it software defined and something they can update.
hamandcheese
I'm pretty sure the sensor for that is a simple reed switch.
OJFord
A reed switch (plus magnet and choice of location) would be an implementation of a 'fixed angle switch' per my comment above.
tesseract
More likely a hall effect sensor, which is solid state and a lot smaller. And yes, older MacBooks had something like that, as evidenced by the fact you could put them to sleep by holding a magnet in the right place (just to the left of the trackpad IIRC in the models I'm familiar with)
rzzzt
When I ran a MacBook Pro in closed clamshell mode and put another laptop on top of it, it went to sleep. Must be a weight sensor in there as well. (/s)
kelnos
Why though? That seems unnecessarily complex? It seems fine to me to just use a reed switch and sleep when it's closed or very close to closed.
missinglugnut
It's one sensor in both cases, and in the latter case you can do so much more: change the thresholds in an update, detect when the lid is in the process of closing, apply hysteresis (on a simple switch, there's an angle where vibration could cause it to bounce between reading open and closed, but with an angle sensor you can use different thresholds for detecting and open and closing state change).
But most of all...you don't have to commit to a behavior early in the design process by molding the switch in exactly the right spot. If the threshold you initially pick isn't perfect, it's much easier to change a line of code than the tooling at the manufacturing plant.
Reason077
Why use two sensors when one will do? If you already have an angle sensor, it makes sense to get rid of the reed switch and reduce your production costs.
undefined
Reason077
It can’t be exclusively for Desk View. Desk View only works on Macs with wide-angle cameras, which were introduced in 2024 and 2025 models.
But this sensor has been in MacBooks since the 2019 models.
appellations
Apple has a history of adding sensors, security chips, etc. a few revisions before the feature they support launches. It’s a really good idea because it helps them sort out the supply chain, reliability, drivers, etc. without any customer impact. It decouples the risks of the hardware project from the risks of the software project.
If things go particularly well you get to launch the feature on multiple hardware revisions at once because the first deployment of the component worked great, which is a neat trick.
Hamuko
Yeah, my iPhone 11 Pro came with the ultra-wideband chip in late 2019, and before the AirTags were released in early 2021, I believe the only thing it was used was for ordering AirDrop targets by proximity. It was clearly intended for the AirTags from the beginning, but it took about 1.5 years before it actually mattered.
wklauss
At Apple Stores, laptops screens have to be opened exactly at 76 degrees. I wonder if they use this sensor and specific software for adjustment (I'm not implying this is the only reason it's there)
simonbw
It seems like it would be much quicker and easier to just have a piece of plastic or something cut at a 76 degree angle that they can place on the laptop and fold the screen up to.
stevage
76 degrees is just an aesthetic choice?
DSingularity
Shows you how good they are at planning and decomposing features into well scoped hardware and software features which can ship earlier, provide some value, while enabling richer future features. You have to respect them for this because this is how they have always operated.
undefined
KeplerBoy
Fascinating feature! Is it known how they do it?
Is it just an image transformation or a full blown AI model using Gaussian Splats or something along those lines?
anal_reactor
You could calculate the angle from the camera view as long as at least some piece of the MacBook is in view.
antennafirepla
You could, for orders of magnitude more compute than reading a magnetic encoder (my assumption at how they estimate it)
estimator7292
Sure, but not more than what you're already spending on transforming the image. And it's not like these devices are exactly lacking in horsepower.
Cthulhu_
But compute is cheaper for the manufacturer than adding a sensor (parts & labor, and it adds up over millions). Someone must've done the math.
undefined
gcanyon
The Mac camera light is wired inline. If the camera is on, so is the light. Since we're not seeing the camera light flashing on periodically, this isn't how it's being done.
danhau
The Macbook tally light isn‘t necessarily wired to the camera. It very well could be independently software controlled. At least it was not too long ago. IIRC there was an article about this, posted here on HN.
Macs used to have (still have?) a feature where you could declare it as lost/stolen and remotely take a photo with the camera. I believe the light didn‘t glow for that.
sannysanoff
shameless plug: https://sannysanoff.github.io/whiteboard/
not only for mac users.
undefined
ivanjermakov
Relevant XKCD: https://xkcd.com/1425/
junon
This was correct a number of years ago. Feels a little strange we can just do an API call for bird recognition now.
vaenaes
[dead]
Biganon
[flagged]
lazide
Ho boy, good luck convincing people it wasn't watching them wank!
undefined
a1o
How does this work? Does it have two cameras?
hulium
Other laptops have this too. Linux has a driver for it.
https://www.phoronix.com/news/Intel-Hinge-Driver-Linux-5.12
The sensor angle would be in a file like `/sys/bus/iio/devices/iio:device*/in_angl0_raw` (device number can vary). At least I have this in a config file and remember it working (maybe on a different computer?). I cannot get it to work anymore on my laptop.
oblio
Apple has crazy amount of underground PR.
A lot of the tech Apple uses is made by Samsung and others and you'd think everyone else works with sticks and stones.
matsemann
A fun entry to the trend "stupid volume controller" a while back I guess would be to use this to control the volume, heh.
mattbee
If you have an external monitor and don't mind killing your hinge within an hour it's perfect for Trombone Champ
cluckindan
Even better as a phone number input
Razengan
Or as an accordion
Terr_
Or some kind of... not-so-cheap theremin knockoff.
Is 802.11 signal strength consistent/detailed enough that it could be used as another kind of input, as someone cradles the laptop in different ways?
_9ptr
Made me chuckle
jarmitage
See "The Laptop Accordion" from 2016 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMJAevVri5w
amelius
So doesn't seem specific to Apple hardware.
The only thing "Apple" here is that it's not exposed as a public API.
unglaublich
> Motion is tracked using the laptop camera via optical flow and mapped to continuous control over dynamics, while the sound is generated in real-time.
No, it's a different method.
1ceaham
Author here. We checked for APIs like this at the time, but since approximately every laptop has a webcam, the cv approach is much more accessible. It would be a fun rewrite though; I’m sure polling this would be a few orders of magnitude more efficient. There was definitely lag if you ran the app on a very underpowered machine which did impact the “playability” of the velocity parameter.
dlcarrier
Apple goes much further than not offering an API: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jaymcgregor/2023/10/11/genius-n...
seagram
https://x.com/nevmed/status/1640004745250078723
I wonder if Apple uses this internally at Apple stores to set the screen angle at 76 degrees.
mitchellh
This must be new, if true.
I worked at an Apple retail store during college. We were taught to put the screens at a certain angle but it was a gut feeling angle learned through practice, and not measured. More senior people would correct you if you were off.
They did mandate putting the bezel, mouse, keyboard, etc. at specific grains in the wood that were consistent across the desks though to ensure they were lined up without having to bust out a level-like device.
Overall everything was made so that retail employees would continuously clean up the displays as they walked around the store (even while helping customers without them realizing it) so that the store always felt perfect. They had a phrase for it but I forgot now, it's been almost 15 years now...
peterkos
This reminds me of those videos where the bar staff try blind pouring a shot, and it's wild how good some people are. Would love to see a similar competition, re: can the most senior store members be accurate to 1° :)
stevage
I'm going to really enjoy going into apple stores and messing them up now.
filchermcurr
Why would you enjoy making worker's lives just a little more difficult? :\
TiredOfLife
I like how the picture clearly shows that the screen angle is 70 degrees or rather 110 from the users point of view
jolmg
> In Apple Stores all screens are tilted at exactly 76° degrees, this is so you move the screen with your hand…interacting with the product more and making you feel more attached to it.
From the description, I would've thought it meant 76 degrees from the user's PoV, i.e. slightly closed so the user would feel compelled to open it more / tilt it into their view (with their hand). The pictures show ~70 degrees from the back of the devices though, so IDK what they mean about the hand moving the screen. There's no need for interacting then, since the display can be seen from afar.
0xCMP
I believe the initial tweets/demos have some calculation errors which were later corrected.
TiredOfLife
Those calculation errors are called lies
busymom0
I am just imagining the manager get an angry email from Tim Cook every time some MacBook in the store is not at 76 degrees.
amelius
What a silly thing to obsess about.
layer8
The photo shows 70 degrees.
harrall
I wonder if the specific degree is important or rather it’s because screens tilted at different angles in a store looks ugly asf.
jayknight
My first job was at a video rental store. My boss was very strict about the videos being spaced evenly and all at the same angle. Every hour one of us had to walk the entire store straightening everything out. It did look very nice in there.
egeres
This was used as part of a 2017 competition to make the worst volume controllers: https://x.com/0xDesigner/status/1642554834535477249
bmcahren
Missed a huge opportunity to play the sound of a monstrous wooden door sound when the lid closes. Looking forward to the update!
HPsquared
Venjent has some amazing door-based tracks.
https://youtube.com/shorts/sgqTEjN5_vQ
Edit: not forgetting the classic Miles Davis door: https://youtu.be/wwOipTXvNNo
JKCalhoun
Venjet is new to me.
("It’s such a fine line between stupid and clever.")
gerdesj
I seem to recall the BBC have released quite a few sound effects ... ahh yes:
https://sound-effects.bbcrewind.co.uk/
There must be a door or two in there.
peterkos
Someone did it! https://hachyderm.io/@samhenrigold/115159295473019599
bapak
The audio stops abruptly when the lid clicks
crazygringo
I wonder why? Presumably this information doesn't come for free, and Apple spends money to put this sensor in.
Is it a backup if the magnet for closed lid detection fails? Is it some kind of input for the brightness sensor or True Tone? Is it for warranty investigation, that if the hinge breaks they can figure out if it was physically pushed too far, or was repeatedly slammed open and shut like a toy?
avianlyric
The info probably does come for free. The laptops don’t use the magnets along the top edge of the screen for detecting if the screen is closed, those magnets are just there to provide the latching effect when the screen is closed, so it doesn’t open accidentally.
The sensor used for detecting if the lid is closed is an “angle” sensor, although really it’s an Hall effect sensor and a magnet in the hinge. If you have a Hall effect sensor, getting angle data from it is pretty much free, because the Hall effect produces a continuously varying signal, you need thresholding logic to turn it into a binary output.
Given Hall effect ICs are so cheap and plentiful there no reason to use anything else. Also given they mass-produced ICs it’s probably cheaper to buy a fully featured Hall Effect IC, because the manufacturing cost between a basic IC and an advanced IC is almost certainly zero these days.
In short, modern IC manufacturing has just made magnetic angle sensors as cheap, if not cheaper, than dump non-angle sensing Hall sensors. After all you can always use an angle sensing Hall sensor as binary switch if you want, but the reverse isn’t true, so if the ICs basically cost the same, you can expect the less capable ICs to be completely outcompeted by the more capable ICs.
macNchz
Once upon a time Mac laptops used reed switches to detect closed lids, and they were a common point of failure, presumably since they contained moving parts.
cosmic_cheese
They can be erroneously triggered or prevented from working as expected by nearby magnetic objects too, which can be annoying. No such issue with a hinge angle sensor.
londons_explore
Angle sensing IC's tend to need to be on the end of the shaft they sense, which can make some packaging and assembly headaches.
I personally am surprised they don't put an accelerometer in both halves of the laptop and use math to calculate the angle based on gravity.
avianlyric
They only need to be co-linear to the shaft if you care about accurate measurements, such as in a motor controller. I doubt the error introduced by being off-axis would make much difference in this application.
There are also packaging considerations when putting a hall sensor elsewhere. Packaging it in the hinge has the advantage you can use the same hinge and sensor setup in all laptop models. Packaging the sensor elsewhere means custom packaging setups for each laptop to work around all the other components in the body of the machine. Doing the extra work for packaging in the hinge once is probably quite a bit cheaper than having to constantly redo the packaging work in every new model.
ChocolateGod
So basically as free as the glowing Apple logo that used to be on the back of Macbooks.
userbinator
The cost of the software is higher for an angle sensor than a binary switch, but perhaps they consider it NRE (which is actually not true if you consider "maintenance" work.)
estimator7292
We've been using Hall effect sensors for lid close detection for a long, long time. My thinkpad from 2013 has it halfway down one edge.
If you simply move the sensor (that is already a requirement) closer to the hinge, you can infer angle based on the Hall sensor for free. You can even get special sensors that specifically measure the magnetic field orientation for the same price as the simple type.
Yes, it's completely free with just a very minimal amount of thought put into the design.
postalcoder
It’s likely there to support Desk View[0]. Desk View presents the items on your desk in a geometrically correct, top-down view. Knowing the angle of the display is very helpful when applying keystone correction.
rossant
Wild idea: if the goal is to wake from sleep as quickly as possible when opening the lid, could receiving a signal as soon as the user starts lifting the screen save a few hundred milliseconds? I might be way off though.
anentropic
Pretty sure that exact feature was announced when the current generation of Macbooks were launched
seanalltogether
My best guess is it's related to thermal control. The vents on macbooks are right under the hinge, and the vents are blocked and opened to different degrees based on the angle of the lid.
hk1337
Apple is going to see an increase in MacBook Pro hinges breaking from people trying to play the Star Trek theme in theremin mode or other songs with other instrument sounds.
Apple: How did the hinge break?
Customer: I don’t know, I just opened it one day and it came off.
jerlam
Probably not as bad as the Smackbook, which used the HDD impact sensors to change apps: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uvQTTPr9Rw
"I was just hitting the side of my laptop in order to go to Safari"
No longer supported because we don't use HDDs anymore.
rootbear
I always wanted to rig up a laptop that has an IMU to detect when it was in free fall and play the Wilhelm scream.
shmeeed
Great idea! Thinkpads (used to?) have an Active Protection System that used a Free Fall Sensor IMU to park the HDD read/write head in the event of a fall. Don't know if there's an API, though.
JKCalhoun
Ha ha, too bad Apple is likely logging screen angle for just such a repair dispute.
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thisOtterBeGood
You could use that to display some kind of billboard affect, so that an image is always in a correct aspect ration to the observer in front :D Please could someone with a macbook do this and post a video here? :D
ritcgab
And this little thingy makes a lot of M2 MacBook Airs fail.
katmannthree
I'd like to hear more, do you have an article or something you could link?
ritcgab
There is no official statement about this issue but you can search for user reports like "M2 MacBook Air black screen" or something similar. It is not uncommon.
In older versions of macOS you can simply try two things:
* Press Esc in locking screen, or * Press "Sleep" from the menu bar icon and then press Esc immediately
If the machine crashes/reboots, the sensor is bad and it needs to be replaced. Apple Store replaces the whole display assembly.
15 inch and M3/M4 models are not affected, AFAIK.
wiredpancake
[dead]
emmelaich
I was wondering this myself. I've had three mac air/books that simply failed to turn the display on. I've heard (from a third party repairer) that it is not uncommon.
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Alts: https://hachyderm.io/@samhenrigold/115159295473019599, https://bsky.app/profile/samhenri.gold/post/3ly7252lx422d
Theremin Mode: https://twitter.com/samhenrigold/status/1964464940049453153
Github: https://github.com/samhenrigold/LidAngleSensor