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sytelus
pulisse
> A lot of books, even small scale ones, are also fake and very low quality.
My sister works in manga and anime publishing and this is an existential threat to her company. Some of the issues they're grappling with:
1. For some of their titles, the genuine item doesn't even appear among search results on Amazon—only the counterfeits do.
2. The quality issues with the counterfeits can result in losing all future business from a customer. For example, download codes will be missing or non-functional. Irrational as it is, customers blame the publisher when this happens and stop buying further titles from them.
3. Amazon seems to be using some slapdash ML to determine how many of each title to order. They'll purchase 10k of vols. 5 and 7 of a series and only 1k of vol. 6. Guess how many of that 10k of vol. 7 end up selling when that happens?
Amazon is, needless to say, non-responsive to their concerns.
hinkley
My local library had books 1-3 and 5-6 of a series I was reading by an author who I own all of her later books. I even tried to find a copy at the local used shop, thinking I would read it and then donate it, but due to her rising star they had printed new editions in a completely different style, and size. I ended up pirating a copy of that book instead. Then bought the audio book for a book I already owned as penance.
I suspect when there are gaps that either the counterfeiters win or nobody wins.
gs17
> They'll purchase 10k of vols. 5 and 7 of a series and only 1k of vol. 6. Guess how many of that 10k of vol. 7 end up selling when that happens?
I've noticed that too in manga. It's amazing they screw it up so bad, given their origin as a book seller.
mcv
What I'd like to know is: has anyone ever sued Amazon for this? There seems to be plenty of evidence for a massive class action suit. They are knowingly and intentionally screwing sellers and customers alike.
steviedotboston
Check out the recalls from https://www.cpsc.gov/
Amazon lists thousands of junk products from China that violate US laws around product safety. Toys containing lead paint, crib bumpers that can suffocate babies, etc. The process seems to be that Amazon just needs to remove the product in violation but it really appears that this is a wholesale attempt on Amazon's part to circumvent legislation. It should not be this trivial for consumers to find products that are potentially dangerous.
xp84
I'm especially annoyed at the electrical equipment category. 20 years ago it would be hard to find even a power strip or AC adapter for sale in America that wasn't UL listed. Even dollar store merchandise usually had the label.
Today, you can only buy two kinds of such products: The (I assume Alibaba-sourced) Amazon Marketplace, fulfilled by Amazon items which are never UL listed, and brand-name items from a brick and mortar store, which cost 8x the price of the equivalent 'Amazon special.'
I know "UL" is just a label and that not having it doesn't necessarily prove anything, but absent any form of certification, an device on Amazon Marketplace may come from a vendor that has literally never even submitted a sample for quality testing to anyone. BigClive on YouTube has shown some shocking (literally) teardowns.
I've heard that insurance companies will deny a claim if your house burns down due to a non-UL-listed device causing a fire. Terrifying.
throwawaymaths
"UL" is not just a label, it's one of the biggest nongovernmental product safety testing organization. I don't know where it stands relative to consumer reports.
> insurance companies
UL stands for underwriter's (aka insurers) laboratories
x0x0
That's because Amazon is, in large part, a front end over Alibaba with exactly zero enforcement of regulation. But they do manage to charge way more!
xp84
Indeed! Amazon, it seems, is just a hyperscale fulfillment plugin for Alibaba (etc). It's like a CDN layer for physical goods, moving them to the edge and delivering them at a speed few can even dream of touching due to the cost of having that many POPs.
conductr
I think if you were to ask them, being a "Marketplace" means they have little responsibility. "Retailers" have much more legal responsibility in terms of vetting manufacturers, supply chain concerns, product safety, etc
profsummergig
I wanted to try out the tee-shirt hustle once.
There was a cool design (or at least I thought so) I came up with. Had about 100 of those printed.
Went to Amazon to get a seller account:
1) learned that if I had only 1 tee-shirt with a single design to sell, I couldn't get the account.
2) after researching the competition, discovered that many of the tee-shirt designs for sale were:
a) clearly in copyright violation (e.g. Disney characters on some mom & pop store.
b) their images on their store were just a photoshopped tee-shirt. I.e., not photos of the actual tee-shirt they had for sale. But the design photoshopped on to a photo of a blank tee-shirt.
riffraff
Copyright violation on t-shirts seems to be the norm, it's not just Amazon. Basically every t-shirt seller out there will allow user-submitted design that infringe on someone's IP.
I'm not complaining, cause I love my Mario/Banksy crossover t-shirt, but it's just how it is, Disney & co just don't bother going after them, they're happy to sell you their official™ stuff through other channels.
account42
Ordering your own prints really should not be a copyright issue anyway even if the law currently might disagree.
dlcarrier
Copyright law only restricts commercial activity, so if you print a Nintendo character on your shirt, to wear yourself, there's no means for Nintendo to sue you over it. File sharing lawsuits are not over users downloading content, but over users seeding it, which is on by default in most file sharing clients.
If you hire someone to print it on the shirt for you, and then distribute the shirt, you would be liable for copyright infringement, not the printer, because the printer isn't supplying the artwork, you are. It's no different than placing phone calls to perform an illegal activity. The phone provider isn't guilty, but you are.
If you order a custom shirt, and provide unlicensed copyrighted artwork, but don't distribute it, then no one is in a position to get in trouble.
busyant
> I tried to move my purchases to Walmart
Walmart does (or at least did) something similar.
* About 7 years ago, I purchased a toy drone online from Walmart for one of my sons for Christmas.
* I purchased it before Thanksgiving because the Walmart website urged me to purchase in time for Christmas delivery.
* My son opened the gift on Christmas and the drone was broken (out of the box).
* I tried to return the drone to a brick-and-mortar Walmart store and they told me that they couldn't issue a refund because I bought it on their website, but it was through a 3rd party seller. I had to take it up with the 3rd party.
* Remember the part where I said I bought the drone before Thanksgiving?? Well, I contacted the 3rd party and was told they had a strict 30 day return policy and they could not issue a refund.
It was a cheap gift, but the whole ordeal bothers me to this day.
SoftTalker
Yes I buy household stuff on Walmart's website quite often, but only stuff sold and shipped by Walmart. They have a lot of third party listings on the site also, which many people may not realize, or if they do, they don't understand that Walmart only facilitates the transaction for these, you cannot do returns or get support at a Walmart store.
capitainenemo
Yeah, I always check the Sold by Walmart box, and I need a good reason to go outside that list. It's just just about returns. Walmart does supply chain quality control that does not seem to happen as reliably on the 3rd party listings. (edited because I'm sure some 3rd party sellers are legit. target for example offers a selectable but short list of sellers, I imagine you could check them for reputation)
This isn't just Walmart though. Most non-Amazon websites have a similar option. Lowes, Target, NewEgg...
mminer237
Walmart does accept returns for third-party products in-store but only for the 30 days after their delivery date.
conductr
This is an issue with many retailers surrounding holiday and 30 day policies.
You'd think they could use some exception for defective items versus just normal return/exchange, but they rarely do
SkyPuncher
I just saw a Walmart commercial where they were proudly pronouncing they had half-billion items.
I couldn’t help to think that I wanted anything but that. I want a lot of items, but I prefer quality items over random crap.
gavinsyancey
For books, your local independent bookstore can order pretty much any book for you if you walk in and ask (if they don't already have what you want). They won't charge shipping, it'll just come with their next shipment from the publisher and then you can come pick it up. Or if you have to do things online, try https://bookshop.org
cafard
That can very much depend on your local independent store. I have had mixed results over the years.
account42
Having to physically go to a store just to you can at some point physically go to a store to buy something is quite a large amount of friction compared to pressing a button and having something show up at your door.
monkeyelite
And they will charge me $50 for making an online order.
Why are we romanizing middle-men between you and a web form?
kbelder
In my experience, gavinsyancey is correct. If the situation arises, you should give it a try. You'll probably be pleasantly surprised.
_DeadFred_
Bro, just email the bookstore. Going through a middle man designed/optimized to rip both you and the bookstore off (some SAAS bookstore site solution) of course jacks the price up.
At this point, if it's online, it's worse/crap/designed to screw you and whoever you are dealing with as much as it can get away with.
canpan
The "incompetent competitors" is a big point for me. I prefer to buy from a more trusted local (in Japan) store. But it is so cumbersome! Buying something on Amazon is fast and smooth, and they have a huuge selection. Regarding price, many stores here price fit, so Amazon is not actually cheaper.
rtpg
I was having a conversation earlier today with an acquaitance who bought rubbing alcohol off of Amazon because according to him none of the pharmacies in his city have it.
He lives in Seattle.
It really feels like people's behaviors have been permanently changed for the worst, even if a "proper" competitor comes in.
I no longer have prime shipping, and seeing "shipping: $5" next to anything on Amazon definitely helps me to do at least cursory searches in local stores... would probably be a net benefit to society to outlaw Prime
crooked-v
I tried to find replacement shoelaces locally and none of the shoe stores in a 20-mile radius had any at all. Not the big chains, not the independent places, nothing. My only option was to buy them online.
thaumasiotes
> It really feels like people's behaviors have been permanently changed for the worst
I recently spent a year in Shanghai, and when I would ask a friend where to go to buy something I needed, the response was always a confused "buy it online and have it delivered".
I don't care for that. I'd like to have things available in stores.
badwolf
>none of the pharmacies in his city have it. >He lives in Seattle.
Stores may have it, but have it locked up or behind the counter (or just not carry it at all) my (seattle) grocery store carries hand sanitizer, but not on the shelf. You have to find an employee (good luck...) and ask them to go get it from the back/wherever. Or order the same product on Amazon for same-day delivery for the same price or cheaper :-/
mschuster91
Here in Germany, you used to be able to buy chemicals at pharmacies. Then, the EU plus the usual German compliance-by-the-letter came along... the EU imposed serious controls on chemicals because many can be used to make bombs (e.g. acetone plus hydrogen peroxide yields APEX/TATP) or various illicit drugs. That legislation now not just requires a bullshit amount of paperwork for each transaction but also requires pharmacy staff to pass and renew a certification for dealing with chemicals. No, the actual doctor in pharmaceuticals that one needs to pass to open a pharmacy is not enough.
As a result, nearly all pharmacies here dropped the entire lines of making medication on-site and selling chemicals, because only the latter kept the former financially viable.
So, your only options left are either: a) buy from Amazon or eBay sellers that outright don't care about the German peculiarities or b) if you manage to qualify, buy from the usual selection of lab supply wholesalers. But something like "start a German NileRed channel", that's completely out of the question. The kind of stuff he buys, no way to get that without a commercial entity, and good luck getting that in place without at least a bachelor's degree in chemistry.
parineum
Not too long ago I bought rubbing alcohol on amazon because it wasn't available in a few places I checked locally. I was looking for a less diluted solution, everywhere around me had, what seemed to be, the standard (I think it was 70%?) solution.
Perhaps that acquaintance was in a similar situation.
account42
I don't have Prime either (and never did except for the free student trial year) but shipping is still "free"* when you just bunch up your orders so they are above the minimum for that.
(*) Of course you pay for shipping via the purchase price but you do that even if you order individual items and also with Prime.
mulmen
Most of the pharmacy chains (Bartell, Rite Aid, Walgreens) in Seattle are bankrupt. Last time I was in a Bartell the shelves were nearly empty. He might be right.
devnullbrain
Rubbing alcohol is also cheap enough that the 'free shipping' is really just being included in the price.
IrishTechie
I often think how great it would be to have a site where I could see all the shops nearby that have stock of X at Y price even if they don’t do online shopping. For example I am certain there are multiple places near me that have some 5m 10t tie-down straps, I’d happily drive to one to collect, but I won’t drive or ring 10-20 shops to find them so just order on Amazon.
It’s a tough problem I guess with so many stock systems out there and inevitably whoever creates the site will want to monetise it, then slowly enshitify it.
theoreticalmal
I bet most companies wouldn’t want to share that information, as they would end up directly competing for every item with every other store in the radius. Most stores have cost leaders on some items and then make up for that lost revenue with higher margins on others. With the new system, every store would have their high margin items next to the same item, but sold as a cost leader, at other stores
pimlottc
This is basically what Google Shopping does, although it's mostly limited to major chains.
Here's an example:
https://www.google.com/search?q=rubbing+alcohol+nearby&udm=2...
thayne
> and they have a huuge selection
That's the big thing for me. I don't live close to a big city, so local selection is pretty limited. For some things there isn't even a local store available.
_DeadFred_
Anymore.
For obscure items, all it takes is once from Amazon to kill you:
dfxm12
The lesson they have learned is that people who care, can tell the difference and shop with them are such a small minority that it isn't worth it to their bottom line to address this. The government doesn't seem to care either. The market isn't going to fix this.
Maybe you can round up enough people for a common cause as discussed in the article, but that doesn't scale. Take notice that for all its talk about America first policy & general sinophobia, the current admin in Washington hasn't done anything about this either. They don't care about American small businesses or consumers. They only care about people like Jeff Bezos, the Waltons, etc.
coredog64
The other half of this is that the degraded marketplace rewards ad spending, and ad spending is now a significant amount of revenue for Amazon (IIRC, it's behind AWS but doesn't need nearly as many people)
speeder
I used to buy a certain book series on fictionwise, because it was the only site selling those books in my country.
B&N bought Fictionwise, and first thing they did was determine that you need to be physically inside USA to download stuff.
Now only way for me to get those books is pirated. :( Maybe I should just download them pirated and donate the price of the books directly to the author account or something. I really don't understand what is the problem of B&N or how they still exist, they are literally anti-business.
dylan604
How did they determine if you were physically within the US? How would using a VPN not provide the same ability?
account42
Does it matter? You can't expect people to set up a VPN just so they can give you money.
fkyoureadthedoc
Not that it's the case for B&N, but many sites block VPN. Reddit for example.
alister
In case there are readers who don't know who Clifford Stoll is, he's the author of The Cuckoo's Egg: Tracking a Spy Through the Maze of Computer Espionage, that was practically required reading if you were a programmer or hacker in the early 1990s.
I didn't understand how hijacking worked on Amazon until I read this lucid explanation. Clearly he's still a great writer.
He's on Hacker News as CliffStoll. This makes me wonder how Hacker News deals with someone registering a famous person's name if they are not that person? I'm guessing that it's not a big problem here on HN because there's nothing being sold.
CliffStoll
Yep, I'm the same guy. Almost 40 years ago, I chased down those German hackers in my unix boxes; not knowing a thing about writing, I wrote Cuckoo's Egg. (a long story there - how to write a book)
Since then, I've lowered my periscope: my wife, Pat, and I decided to stay home together and raise two kids. They're now fledged - hooray! During that time, I started this micro-business of making Klein bottles - much fun!
Alas, but this past December, my wife left this vale of toil and tears. During the day, staying busy helps keep the grief under control; other times I'm in deep sadness, trying to find my way without her.
To all my friends & acquaintances on HN: my deep thanks for your kindness & support across decades. It's a joy to be considered a member of the tribe.
alister
I’m so sorry to hear about your loss. We’ve never met but I feel like I know you because of your book and many other works, and I feel your loss.
encom
>how Hacker News deals with someone registering a famous person's name
I registered as britneyspears, but dang got mad and made me change it. :(
I thought the absurdity of Britney being on HN was amusing.
earleybird
Say it aint so. I learned all about lasers from Britney.
Anthony-G
Great stuff! I always enjoy seeing websites from the 90s still being served to the public – even if they haven’t been updated in decades. Hedy Lamarr’s story was very interesting: https://britneyspears.ac/physics/intro/hedy.htm
unethical_ban
You'd think an ENCOM representative would be allowed to have whatever name they wanted.
mrlatinos
His NOVA episode on the same subject is worth a watch as well https://youtu.be/Xe5AE-qYan8
I think most younger readers will be familiar through his videos on the Numberphile YouTube channel.
davidw
The first time I lived in Italy, back in the mid nineties, with expensive phone service and no home internet connection... I had a copy of that book and I think I read it like 10 times.
servercobra
I just saw him give a talk at Thotcon in Chicago about catching one of the first hackers and it was by far the best talk I've seen in quite a while. He's eccentric, animated, and an amazing storyteller.
CliffStoll
Oh, Thotcon was way fun, Server of cobras. The organizers gave me liberty to fool around, and there was a full house. Terrific time there!
tptacek
I saw him give a talk in the late 1990s and he was one of the best presenters I've seen, I'd go out of my way to see him if you have a chance.
stn8188
This is amazing. I was literally reading the 3rd chapter of the book "Machine Beauty" in bed, saw the baby Clifford Stoll mentioned and looked it up because it sounded familiar. Of course I've seen the beautiful glass bottles here on HN before, so I went back to my book. After putting it down and hopping on HN, of course I see an article referencing this exact topic! Such a small world.
dunham
I think that was the book that I read on my Palm Pilot. But it's been a while.
I had the klein stein at one point, but got rid of it when downsizing. It was hard to clean, so not practical for drinking, and not as pretty on the shelf as a classic klein bottle. I'd recommend one of those if you're thinking of getting one.
wglb
When I was doing security training for the engineers at Relativity, I gave each attendee (ultimately all of engineering) the book.
I saw Cliff speak twice at the Dayton Hamvention. The first time was a retelling of his Cuckoo's Egg story, and the second time was about the joy of learning and all the marvelous things you could get at the flea market to build something.
Thanks, Cliff!
CliffStoll
Cliff Stoll here. The brand hijacking on Amazon USA was fixed.
But Amazon Canada listing is still held by Amvoom. I'm unable to sell Klein bottles in Canada. sigh
If anyone knows how to fix this, please send email to me!
Many thanks, -Cliff
rtkwe
Are you still using the little forklift robot from the Numberphile video? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k3mVnRlQLU
CliffStoll
Yep, Ritkew ... that homebrew forklift helps pull boxes of glass manifolds every day. The crawlspace is maybe 2 feet tall, and I don't like crawling around there.
It's how I cheat my chiropractor.
steve_adams_86
Man, I enjoyed this so much. I love seeing people who just get things done, aren't too picky about solutions, and demonstrate ingenuity like this. I really admire it. Making things work with what you've got is an amazing skill, and something I need to work on more. I always want things to be 'just so' and I fail to appreciate how awesome things can be, even if they aren't perfect.
MattSayar
Hey Cliff, just curious: how were you made aware that this post on HN is trending?
CliffStoll
Hi Matt,
All of a sudden, I got three or four Klein bottle orders. That's a lot for an hour! One of the orders (thank you Bryan in Johnstown) mentioned Hacker News. And, well, here I am.elwell
> That's a lot for an hour!
If you still handcraft each personally, that's keine kleine Klein problem.
BrenBarn
The cause is the same, the solution is the same: when companies become so big and capture so much market share that they no longer are responsive to the needs of their customers, it's time for them to be destroyed. Amazon should be dismantled into dozens or even hundreds of small companies and all its assets distributed among them.
WorldPeas
A big company can create value though, as an arbiter of quality like Sears was. Sears was a logistics company that offered push-button value for commodities much like Amazon basics. I think that before their economic philosophy was ruined(long story short one of the managers was a big fan of inter-departmental competition, same thing what killed RCA). Perhaps the problem here is America lacks a Sears option, save for Wal-mart, which doesn't offer the same quality. I think the middle class would benefit from a catalog offering push-button quality options, but such a thing does not exist, perhaps Sears undid themselves by making items that would last decades (still using all the power tools they made in the 90s and 2000s, and some of the clothes/blankets too)
slumberlust
Do you have any examples of big companies that still make quality products and prioritize that quality/support over growth/revenue?
I want to believe, I try to spend my money where I think it matters, but it just seems so pointless at the scale of Amazon, BP, Comcast, etc.
WorldPeas
The ones I'd say have high quality are usually "retreating upmarket" to combat fast fashion like zara or shein. I recently bought a coat from H&M that was fairly nice and seems like it will last quite a while, obviously priced to be that way. In terms of homewares, design within reach/Williams Sonoma seem to be the ones for durability. The only problem as you've likely noticed is these stores almost have "too much" variety, likely due to them fragmenting along specialization lines. The beauty of Sears was it's range, that it had almost everything, I'll link a catalog below, it has everything from standard dad-tools to survey gear, I don't think I've ever seen another retail store get this close to McMaster Carr.
https://archive.org/details/SearsCraftsmanPowerAndHandTools1...
guywithahat
What makes you think your view represents the needs of the customer? The "needs of the market" may just be the absolute rock bottom price, shipped as fast as possible, with an easy return policy. While I agree this article highlights a problem, it feels more like the needs of businesses which is being solved well by Shopify, something the author hits at
GuB-42
Walmart is big enough to take on Amazon. B&N is no small fry either in the book business. That's what sytelus is complaining about. They (maybe) could do something that is beneficial to the customer and get an edge on Amazon, but they don't.
catmanjan
If customers cared they'd swap to a competitor
ijustlovemath
There are no viable competitors because nobody is big enough to take on Amazon. Anyone with aspirations to will inevitably just get undercut and run out of business.
catmanjan
That's because customers don't care about anything but price
xyst
There exists some people, notably me, that refuse to use AMZN due to this type of shit they allow on their platform.
I got hooked on them during college because I got tired of getting shafted by the local university bookstore.
Used to be tax free as well since they were e-commerce related. But state comptrollers later closed that loop hole since they realized how much revenue they were losing.
Then some time in 2020-2021 learned about the abuses to their workers, awful working conditions, near impossible quotas. Then came the merchant abuse stories of AMZN using the purchasing data to push out their own white label items, advertising/ranking merchants below those items (sometimes even cheaper to undercut them). Then as a consumer, the quality of the items ordered from AMZN has dropped significantly.
Free shipping. Free returns. 1-day shipping/same day shipping. It’s all a gimmick and you pay for it in one way or another.
All of those factors have caused me to move my money away from AMZN completely.
Yes I realize warehouse division is nearly subsidized by AWS division. In the long run, it won’t matter unless there is a significant
What did I do:
Easy, purchase directly from manufacturer where possible. Shop local for similar items.
Still try to avoid big box stores as much as possible. For example, using mcmaster.com in place of big orange/blue.
Sure I pay for shipping but I end up buying in bulk to offset it anyways.
Sure it takes 3-4 days to arrive.
I likely won’t get free return shipping, but so far have never had to return items. ("Free returns” at most big box stores are now factored into the cost of items these days. So you pay for it even if you don’t use it)
But in the end, I am getting quality products. I think I can only recall a couple of cases where item did break under normal condition (dog harness). But they were happy to replace at no cost. No need to return defective item.
account42
> Free shipping. Free returns. 1-day shipping/same day shipping. It’s all a gimmick and you pay for it in one way or another.
Yes but I actually much prefer that cost to be included in the list price compared to sellers trying to hide part of the purchase price in inflated shipping costs.
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brettermeier
Downvoted? I mean heißt true. People buying there have created this monster.
account42
As have regulators who continue to allow it to exist.
And competition who refuses to offer comparable services to entice customers.
ColinWright
There may be some youngsters who don't know who Cliff Stoll is.
He wrote "The Cuckoo's Egg" which is a riveting tale, capable of entertaining nerds and non-nerds alike.
He sells glass Klein Bottles, huge, medium, tiny, earrings, and more.
He's given a TED talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gj8IA6xOpSk
He's brilliant, bonkers, and wonderful company. I spent a fantastic morning with him early last year (2024) and it was brilliant fun. I will for many, many years treasure my signed Klein Bottle and my signed copy of "The Cuckoo's Egg".
Thanks Cliff
CliffStoll
You're welcome, Colin! Across the decades, I appreciate the smiles and advice from Hacker News. How'd I ever reach 75 years old?
ColinWright
You're only 10 years older than me, and I'm hoping to be as active and engaged as you are for a long time to come ... you are a fantastic role model, especially with your interaction with, and inspiration of, the younger generation.
Long may it continue, and I hope to take you up on your invitation to visit again.
nhecker
Reading his book as a kid was what got me into computers and networks. After some years I finally got a few of his bottles as gifts for my various mentors along the way (plus one for my desk as well.) He's a special human. I didn't know about the TED Talk; thanks, I'll check that out!
ggm
It's for reasons like this people ask "what happened to regulatory oversight" because at this point, entities who occupy this much of the space appear to be essentially unregulated.
It's trading under false premises. It's misleading conduct. It's oligopoly. The sherman laws were designed for this surely?
I could say the same about appeals to google, apple, anyone for account recovery too.
fermigier
The "Acme Klein Bottle Wine Bottle" is incredible. It strongly reminds me of Jacques Carelman's "Catalogue d'objets introuvables" (1969) [translated as "Catalog of fantastic things", 1971 by Ballantine Books in New York].
As wikipedia states:
> Carelman is best known for his Catalog of fantastic things (Catalogue d'objets introuvables) also known as Catalogue of Unfindable Objects, made in 1969 as a parody of the catalog of the French mail order company Manufrance. This work has been translated into 19 languages (including Korean, Hebrew and Finnish). Among these imaginary objects are, for instance, a "Kangaroo gun" whose "barrel is extensively studied ... to give the bullet a sinusoidal trajectory which follows the animal in its leaps", or a disposable "Plaster anvil ... (sold by the dozen) to be discarded after use, allowing you to make substantial savings." The most famous item in this catalog was Carelman's "Coffeepot for Masochists", a coffeepot with a backwards facing spout that would scald the user. This design became a symbol for the critique of everyday things and was featured on the cover of Don Norman's book on the topic, The Design of Everyday Things.
(I didn't make the connection with Don Norman's book, another, more serious, classic).
AnotherGoodName
I honestly think sites like stockx where they open the package and verify before shipping it forward will overtake amazon despite the increased costs. Absolutely not invested in stockx in any way, just an opinion that was formed as follows;
Amazon was built on trust. I bought a book from them in the early days. It didn’t arrive after 2 weeks and they said ‘we believe you’ and they shipped me the book again at no charge. A week later i got 2 books, the first was lost in transit. Contacted amazon and they and no problem keep both and give one to a friend. I and many others were loyal to amazon after these experiences, paying more due to the lack of hassle and high trust. They became the default online bookstore thanks to this trust. It wasn’t even worth price comparisons, you looked on amazon and bought it there knowing you’d get the product you paid for.
That’s now gone. They have fallen to ebay levels of trust at this point. You’re likely to be shipped a box of rocks rather than what you wanted at this point.
People are willing to pay more for trust and the lack of hassle it represents. I want to buy a hard cover book that’s well printed. If i keep getting poor photocopies on tissue paper the trust is gone. I'll happy pay more to buy from a site where that never happens. I won’t even bother with price shopping when one site is a good chance of a scam and the other isn’t. In fact i’m pretty sure that’s where amazons dominance as the default online store came from and i’m shocked at how little care they have for this fact.
Aurornis
> They have fallen to ebay levels of trust at this point. You’re likely to be shipped a box of rocks rather than what you wanted at this point.
Between eBay and Amazon over the years I’ve done thousands of transactions, including probably 100 as a seller on eBay. The way people on HN talk about these companies, you’d think I would have been victim to endless amounts of fraud. In reality, both companies have handled the rare issues that came up just fine for me and the vast majority of transactions were perfectly fine.
The HN comment section version of Amazon is pure hyperbole at this point.
I’m aware that there are problems and some people haven’t been as lucky, but do you honestly believe you’re more likely to get a box of rocks than the product you ordered? Or that people will pay large fees to have average products verified before shipping when Amazon takes returns all the time? This is just silly.
dimitri-vs
Agreed. To add to this I often buy warehouse deals which is an order of magnitude more risky and the percentage of returns I've had to do is in the low single digits. Almost always it's an obviously brand new never opened product.
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ungreased0675
I’ve never had a problem with buying on eBay, but I have received counterfeit products from Amazon. In one case, it was an electronic gadget that was using a counterfeit chip, so the real drivers wouldn’t work. They did nothing to remedy the situation. Customer service didn’t even understand what my problem was.
Aurornis
> They did nothing to remedy the situation. Customer service didn’t even understand what my problem was.
I don't understand. If I want to return an Amazon product for any reason I just return it. You don't have to explain the driver situation to customer support.
This is what I'm talking about when I say internet comments feel like people are operating in a different world: If you get a counterfeit product from Amazon, you just return it.
You can even return a product if you just decide you don't want it.
foxglacier
It wasn't a USB to RS232 converter was it? Those are notorious for the knock-offs filling the market and not working with the "real" driver.
account42
I have had an increasing number of missing/wrong/broken items with Amazon. So far no problem getting them replaced/refunded though so its still a better customer experience than smaller stores.
BeetleB
Yeah, I only have good experiences on eBay. Just recently I needed to buy something and found it cheaper than on Amazon (most products I buy on eBay are free shipping - I don't have Amazon Prime).
notjoemama
It's not just those incidences though. I think many people have had bad experiences from buying on amazon. Even the shopping process (and this may be the bulk of bad perception) is atrocious. They have a brand filter that is littered with knock off and unknown brands (most I suspect are Chinese). They refuse to include a country of origin filter. We all know why. Reviews have been fake for years, some sellers do little to hide that they've swapped the product on the page to get top rankings for a new product. Product: a plastic step ladder, the reviews: "these bath bombs are so lovely!" Shipping and delivery speed has fallen off for people outside metro areas. Congrats on the vans I guess? Combine that with tertiary problems like scalping, forgery, and lower quality garbage from China, and then fly celebrities into space with subsequent vacuous VSCO-girl like philosophical statements, and its fairly clear why someone's opinion of amazon might be bad. Not to mention their exceedingly poor performance with Prime video. I understand hyperbole is rampant online, but let's maybe agree that water is wet when it is.
a2128
There's absolutely no trust anymore. Apparently when you pre-order an item, you'll actually be the last to receive it because they'd rather guarantee next-day delivery for people buying on launch day. Apparently your delivery can be delayed by multiple months in this case. Apparently customer support might tell you to cancel the order and re-place it to fix this and they'll refund the price difference due to price increase. Apparently the next guy will say they pulled up the chatlog and they never promised any refund for any price difference and to please go away. Apparently you might have to waste months complaining to national authorities with screenshots for them to finally get word that they should look into your case for more than 15 seconds and finally honor a simple 150€ refund on a 2000€+ order...
ChrisMarshallNY
Personally, I don’t get anything for more than $50 from Amazon, and, usually, not even that.
Amazon used to have the best prices, but that is no longer the case. Just a couple of weeks ago, I needed to get bulk cat food (for a bulky cat). I tried Amazon, but they wanted double what I would pay at chewy. So I got it from chewy, and will never look at Amazon for that kind of thing again.
I also tend to go directly to manufacturer Web sites, and order from there. The price is seldom much higher than Amazon, and I won’t have to worry that I’m getting a fake, or gray market junk.
account42
Seems more mixed for me. Yes, Amazon is not guaranteed to be the cheapest so it pays to compare prices fro non-trivial items but often enough Amazon will still be the cheapest for me.
Also, grey market products aren't junk - they are by definition the official product just without the price gouging the manufacturer does in locales where they can get away with it.
ChrisMarshallNY
…or the support.
F’rinstance, get a Chinese webcam, and find the latest download.
Also, there’s some controversy over the privacy in Chinese products (but it’s easy enough to make the same argument about almost any brand).
I have found that Chinese versions of products make up the largest percentage of gray market stuff. I suspect that some percentage of that, is outright fakes.
BrenBarn
> They have fallen to ebay levels of trust at this point.
Overall I have a higher level of trust in Ebay purchases than Amazon purchases.
account42
> They have fallen to ebay levels of trust at this point
Strongly disagree. I have always gotten refunds on Amazon when there were issues whereas on eBay I had sellers run away with my money when they knew that pursuing legal action would cost me more than the dispute amount and eBay doing nothing.
gs17
> If i keep getting poor photocopies on tissue paper the trust is gone.
I'm curious, since I never get these (90% of the time I'm buying used anyways). Do you know what genre has this the worst?
conductr
It's certainly degraded and I have to sift through a lot of junk but I find it's still pretty easy to identify the grift/counterfeiters/etc. I've never had a problem with returns. It's generally easy to initiate, there have been a few random high dollar purchases $500-$1000 that I didn't even notice were flagged as "no refunds" at time of purchase, but if I get on chat they have always made exception and allowed me to return it. The only annoying part is every time I do that, finding the chat feature takes me a good deal of time it's so buried in the UI
I don't buy a lot of books though so maybe that's where a lot of this is coming from?
godelski
This stuff seems to keep happening and the problem seems to be that it is ungovernable. How is someone supposed to fight this if they are not half as famous as Cliff?
bluGill
Look for other suppliers. For everything I'm interested in I can find some small shop that has real reviews and advice. it takes a little effort to find them but they know their product and so it is worth finding them-
dleslie
My prime subscription expires this week. Perhaps the correct response to this systemic incompetence is to simply no longer give them money.
godelski
I dropped mine because frankly, you don't get much from it anymore. Pricing is often identical and frankly, you can just go to the store's site and 99% of the time get the same price
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CliffStoll
Fame, alas, is of little use when you're a tiny seller. Indeed, Amazon's brand registry and seller interaction systems are built to minimize human interactions.
godelski
I'm sorry they did this to you. But you're famous in my book. Not just because the bottles either!
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kevin_thibedeau
Take them to small claims court for each violation.
rendaw
That's the "This is the hill I die on" approach. From all the lawyers (family) I've talked to, this is such a massively large money and time sink, regardless of outcome, that you should never do it, even if it means fraud goes unchecked.
devnullbrain
Even small claims?
hippich
Ianal, but afaik small claims are for purely money claims. I.e. you have to prove to judge/jury exact amount of your loss. It works well in case of fighting over debt. But more abstract damages are likely outside courts jurisdiction...
On the other hand... It is cheap to try and see what happens, as long as expectations are right.
MikeTheGreat
I don't remember why I looked this up in Washington state, USA a while back (bad work by a plumber, I think) but here in WA I think there's also a rule/law that you can only take individuals to small claims court.
There's also a dollar limit ($4,000? Maybe 15 years ago?).
But yeah, by law you can't drag companies into small claims court. It's meant to settle minor things like your neighbor accidentally backing into (and damaging) your fence, etc.
Aurornis
Using your infinite time and money for legal representation to run a large number of legal cases in parallel?
Waterluvian
Time and money, sure. But small claims in many (most? all?) regions are specifically designed to not require a lawyer. I think in some you specifically can’t bring one.
justin66
Please cite a single example of that ever solving this problem.
hsbauauvhabzb
I’m not sure it’s wise to fuck with the legal department of a trillion dollar company even if you’re in the right.
grues-dinner
"Don't fight back when we fuck you or we'll ruin you".
The bigger the company, the heavier the penalties for fuckery should be. They should be the ones to live in fear, not the "little people".
labster
Bezos is thankfully not Elon, he won’t seek vengeance on you for literal nickels and dimes.
bmitc
Small claims is such a huge headache, though. It's far more expensive for anyone person than the company.
hippich
First time - when you learning all the details - may be. But it wasn't that bad. I represented myself vs insurance company with the lawyer. I did not get full claim amount, and could do better, but I got more than what insurance wanted to settle for.
account42
*for the first violation after which they refuse to do business with you.
ceejayoz
Take who to small claims court? Amazon?
kevin_thibedeau
Yes. They no-show and you get a default judgement.
b00ty4breakfast
if these comments are any indication, our inability to handle mild inconvenience and a lifetime of consumerist conditioning are the real reasons amazon can continue to get away with being cartoonishly awful.
I get it, there's a lot of crap in life and sometimes it seems like it's just not worth the hassle to make something a bit unpleasant for the sake of your principles when there's crap at work and the mortgage is due and timmy is failing english class again but they will not stop unless being shitty starts hurting their business and we cannot count on the captured regulators to do that on our behalf.
sneak
This frames it as a failing of consumers.
It’s not that we don’t have an inability to deal with small inconveniences; we haven’t the time and resources to compete with those who are faster because they tolerate monopolies and anticompetitive actors.
b00ty4breakfast
all it takes is not shopping at amazon. now, obviously, if by some awful twist of fate, amazon is the only place to buy your life-preserving medications or whatever (God forbid things ever get that dystopian in my lifetime) then my advice is silly and you should ignore it. but if someone needs some household good or even some foodstuff that only amazon has or that amazon sells cheaper than the other places, then it's time to suck it up and not get your (the general you, not you personally) favorite brand of rocky road ice-cream bars or that brand of soap that you love.
I reckon in the first world, there is nothing that amazon sells that we can't simply skip or get somewhere else that would leave anybody in danger of death or serious injury.
I know it's tre chic to wallow in helplessness wrt certain things these days but we aren't yet completely without recourse even if we aren't going to buy our way into an entirely new order any time soon.
sneak
It’s not a matter of chic. Amazon has more things, delivered faster, than anyone else in most markets. If you don’t use them, you waste huge amounts of time that you would otherwise save.
They have completely replaced all other retail for me. Reverting that would cost me 3-5 hours a week.
account42
You could also say all it takes is a competitors to actually start competing. And by that I mean offering a better product and service, not also turning them into money printing "marketplaces" selling chinese crapware which is what they are doing instead, except without the remaining customer service guarantees that Amazon hasn't yet gotten rid off.
Or all it takes is regulatory agencies to wake up. After all, preventing the tragedy of the commons is their entire reason for existence. In fact, it's the only reason we give away a large chunk of our income in taxes.
iaw
If you haven't bought a Klein Bottle from Cliff I strongly encourage you to do so. He is a treasure.
CliffStoll
//(blush)//
burnt-resistor
Cliff is awesome. The care and effort he shows rivals most Etsy sellers. (I have a Klein mug and gifted several more.)
CliffStoll
Thanks, Resistor-burner!
I have fun with every Klein bottle order. When someone buys a Klein bottle, I celebrate by walking through our backyard garden, looking for new blossoms. I usually take a few photos and send these to my customer-friend.
This micro business puts me in touch with fascinating people (I've met kids in elementary school, grad students, Nobel laureates, even a delightful nut who made a 4-meter tall wooden Klein bottle for Burning Man). The kind of people you find here on Hacker News.
PS - with reference to your HN identity -- from my ham radio days of long ago, I once experimentally determined that a 1/2 watt, 600 ohm Ohmite resistor would burn up when inserted in a 120V outlet. Hmmm: 24 watts into a half-watt resistor? Yep, filled the room with that acrid smell... Don't try this at home.prepend
I loved all the extras he puts in with his orders.
I imagine him as someone who just sits around hacking all day, writing up long essays in between fulfilling orders.
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Amazon remains totally complacent of these issues which are now professionally hacked by China based providers day in and out. Tons of vitamins are now fake and downright harmful. A lot of books, even small scale ones, are also fake and very low quality.
I tried to move my purchases to Walmart and surprisingly, even after 25 years, they haven’t got act together. Walmart even haven’t recognized that they should jump on this problem by prominently showing authentic brand logo or something.
I also tried to move all my books purchasing to B&N and again, surprisingly, they haven’t learned any real lesson in past 25 years. Their website is clunky, they charge $7 delivery fee, they can’t even deliver to my nearest their own shop for free!
Amazon is definitely riding on this utterly deficient competitors and that’s why they get to be so complacent.