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m000
Congrats! The design looks nice, but I'm not very fond of the website design. There isn't a single picture of Trefolo that doesn't crop-out some part of it. Also, every picture is in a "sterile" environment. It would be nice to have a picture of it on a real kitchen counter or coffee corner to put its dimensions into perspective, and also demonstrate how it "fades back into the environment".
Also, IMHO, the sustainability pitch is a nice one but needs to be put down in more precise terms. It is good as it is for people who would otherwise buy a Nespresso machine, but anyone who has bought something above that level would need more convincing.
Overall, a good espresso machine already scores pretty high sustainability-wise. Apart from the used of sustainable/premium materials, a key factor to that is the replacement parts and repairability. So, how does Trefolo do in terms of replacement parts and compatibility with 3rd party parts?
For me, the future lack of replacement parts is especially concerning for the Turbina coffee grinder. The use of bespoke grinding burrs adds a wow factor and may be functionally superior to other types of burrs. But this is the one part in the whole setup that is guaranteed to need replacement down the road. What are the provisions for that? How much would it cost? And if you decide to stop selling it, would you e.g. be willing to commit to releasing the burr design so owners or some independent manufacturer can machine replacements?
smeeeeeeeeeeeee
Thank you so much! I appreciate the advice about the potentially over stylized product pages. If you go to the store here, you can see many full profile views of the products:
You raise a ton of good points.
- It's going to ship with a full spare parts catalogue available
- Full prusa-esque upgrade paths will be made available for existing customers
- Every single part on either product can be changed off with the removal of 1-5 screws.
- The switches, cords, buttons, and (gear)motors are all standard sizes.
- and I absolutely commit to open sourcing everything if a day came where the project could not continue (I have done this for previous projects, it isn't an empty promise)
You make a good point about the burrs being a non-standard size. The thing to remember is every size of burr was once a non standard size. One of the most important parts of being a good engineer is only making something new when you can truly add value, and I think the burrs are valuable enough to have them be probably the only non-standard wear item in either machine.
skrebbel
Just to chip in with the drive-by website feedback, I just realized that (I love everything about this and) I have no idea how big either the espresso machine or the grinder is. I think I'd really need some realistic (ish) kitchen photos with it in action to really appreciate what I'd be ordering.
m000
Appreciated that you took the time to address my points. Glad to see that it's probably the website design that doesn't do justice to the product.
IMHO, you should be putting these details in the spotlight. As a new brand in the espresso world, this would help convince customers go with you instead of a tried-and-trusted brand with decades of history on their back. Also, if there is a hackable PID controller or if there are plans to add one, this would also be a selling point for many (see the renewed popularity of the relatively humble Gaggia Classic).
For the burrs, maybe running a lab test of Turbina against a traditional grinder of the same class would help make a solid argument for the new design. E.g. start grinding 2 kilo batches on each grinder and then take a sample and lab-test it for consistency. Continue until the ground coffee becomes inconsistent on both. Yes, this may turn out to be pricey. And maybe there are established test procedures that I'm not aware of (not a coffee pro - just pulled this out of my engineering bottom).
As a final comment, for the wooden parts of Trefolo, maybe a darker or even black varnish would look more premium/classy. The pale wood color is vaguely reminiscent of IKEA furniture, something you probably want to avoid.
sixo
Re website, The photography is also noticeably low-resolution, which stands out immediately
ed_db
Exactly this! It immediately turned me off from the product when I realised there isn’t a single practical image of it. It’s impossible to visualise how it would actually look on the counter.
crazygringo
Agreed. And please -- show a video of it working, start to finish! This is clearly a product designed to be a sensory experience, so let me see and hear this on a kitchen counter pulling a shot or two.
not_your_mentat
The video of the device in operation with the entire device in frame please. You could still even switch between sexy angles.
alexwebb2
Yep, I looked for a couple minutes and concluded “must be ugly since they clearly don’t want to show it to me”.
amluto
I would also like to see a user’s manual and a diagram of how it’s plumbed. Where does the hot water come from? Does the user supply their own kettle? Where does excess water go when pressure is released? How does the preheating cycle work?
smeeeeeeeeeeeee
Hey there!
Yep, you bring the hot water, the machine does everything else! There is a pressure seal directly in the group head that holds the water in at the end of a shot. You can preheat just by pumping water into a cup for a couple seconds, which is around the same as a purge cycle on a traditional espresso machine. The fluid path is kept as small and as insulated as possible to avoid thermal losses or unnecessary water being held in the machine.
I added a pre-release version of the manual to the warranty page! Please excuse any minor errors.
I definitely agree that there needs to be a simple clean 30 second video of the full workflow with every part visible - I will work on that ASAP.
IAmGraydon
Hang on...you are running a plastic tube to a kettle on your stovetop?? There is zero chance that the water getting to the device is anywhere near the right temperature after going through a length of plastic tubing. As you know, temperature, pressure and grind are the three ingredients that make good espresso. This throws temperature control out the window and would make the temperature wildly swing depending upon the speed and volume of the extraction. Warm up time is crazy too, as you have to boil a pot of water. Most machines take around 30-40 seconds, but Breville has really perfected this and their new machines come up to temp in a miraculous 3 seconds.
Besides that, anyone who has used an espresso machine knows that there's quite a bit of resistance when locking in a portafilter so that it seals properly. This thing looks like it would move off your countertop before the portafilter would lock in. Do you have to hold the legs with one hand while you lock the portafilter or something?
0xffff2
Sorry I can't look at your product page from work, but am I getting the correct impression that this machine doesn't have a boiler? If so, my (meant in good fun) suggestion is that you have in fact designed half an espresso machine :)
otekengineering
Externally supplied hot water through a plastic tube makes this a non-starter for me. You use almost no plastic (wonderful!), but the little there is has a lot of surface area touching hot water.
Have you thought about making a water heater accessory? I'd be open to collaborating - contact[at]otekengineer.com
That grinder is a thing of beauty. I was going to impulsively splurge until I saw the price (not complaining, you're doing the right thing by launching at a high price point).
6510
my preference would be pictures of all angles and a single shot video start to finish.
stop hiding, be proud.
I've just looked at low end robot vacuum cleaners. It was hilarious, non of them are willing to show the product in action.
manarth
> you bring the hot water
E.g.
- Hot water poured in from a kettle?
- Hot water plumbed in from a domestic hot-water supply?
- Hot water plumbed in from a boiling water tap (such as Quooker?)
amluto
> There is a pressure seal directly in the group head that holds the water in at the end of a shot.
Like a check valve? Does that mean that some (clean) water is trapped between the pump's output and the seal at the end of the shot? If so, this doesn't seem so terrible.
One thing I've often found odd about espresso machines is that they all seem to have some mechanism to depressurize the basket when a shot ends, and that this mechanism lets water that may have been in contact with the grounds go through some portion of the machine. What's the point? The pressure will naturally dissipate quite quickly through the grounds unless like kind of pressure-retaining basket is in use.
neogodless
I'd also like to add that everything I click seems to open a new tab/window. Can't I just view the coffee devices and store all in a single tab? Details? New window. Shop? New window! Back to the details? New window. Contact? New window!! I don't like having all these extra tabs to close without a good reason for it.
f1shy
Excellent comment. I beg the OP to address the topics, specially spare parts, so I can buy it.
hsshhshshjk
I was also looking for a full, non edited, non animated, non faded picture of the machine.
turnsout
He has "full body" shots in the actual store, but I agree—it would be great to see a clearer shot, maybe lower in the flow.
XCSme
This was my first impression too. On a large, 4k display, I could barely read anything, all I saw was a really zoomed-in photo of some device.
ajb
It's interesting that he's made this visual mistake even as a person whose main concern is the product. So many photographers/videographers make the same mistake, and I guess he's copied them rather than thinking through what his market needs.
The error is basically to film the product as if it was a sexy woman. I'll put it bluntly: I don't want to fuck your product. I might want to buy it but only if you show me the practical details. (Speaking generally - I'm not in the market for a coffee machine). Videos that solely try to convey allure and mistique are a net negative for the vast majority of products.
havefunbesafe
This is very good news, as designing a physical product like this is 20x more difficult than designing a website!
eps
It's a good presentation, but it's not sufficient as a sales pitch. A non-staged video of both the grinder and the machine in use would be required to place an order, at least for me. As others have mentioned it's not clear where the water pipes go exactly and how the machine is powered.
Also, for $700 independent reviews are also a must.
For the pump kit - this too looks interesting, but requires (way) more details. At the very least a list of supported machines and, again, a video or two of an actual retrofit. Dimensions, voltage (!), etc.
ivanvanderbyl
Get this in the hands of James Hoffman, I’d love to hear his take on it
simonjgreen
It’s fascinating how he has become to coffee as MKBHD has to technology. The kingmaker of coffee gear.
tschwimmer
Unlike MKBHD, James Hoffman has some slightly more objective credibility. He won some barista competitions about 15 years ago. He's been involved in the coffee industry (outside of being a content creator) for most of his life. As far as I know about Marques, his main qualification is that he was just relatively early to the tech review game.
That is not to say that I personally take all or most of Hoffman's suggestions at face value. It's abundantly clear that the level of nuance he considers in coffee is not relevant to me. But I do tend to see him applying a much more objective level of rigor to his reviews than many other content creators.
scarfaceneo
MKBHD is the last person I’d go to for anything tech related.
He, like many others, do little more than just read spec sheets.
I like his car related content though, reckless driving notwithstanding
deanc
Regarding grinders there's actually someone else who is considered the kingmaker: Lance Hedrick [1]
xyst
mkbhd over the years has had some really bad takes on tech. I haven’t used his channel for quite awhile.
I would say his success is largely due to being among the first to the market in tech reviews and having (at the time) better production quality.
peterlada
St James, the protector saint of all things covfefe.
petepete
Thankfully it's quite difficult to grind and brew coffee dangerously.
basedrum
Who is mkbhd?
rocqua
He wouldn't take it. He'll review it after it's been on the market for about half a year, without any money. Lance hedrick is also a decently respected voice who does usually take sponsored reviews, whilst being honest.
jedimastert
I think Lance Hedrick would like this a lot. I bet he would experiment with changing the pressure during the brewing process
xyst
I agree here. Given the bespoke design, I would love to see a comparison with other machines.
N-Krause
It seems to go where ever you like it to go.
> The result is a freedom to use a far more thermally stable source of hot water - like the kettle you already have. And because no water is stored in the machine - it’s fresh every time.
Seems like a interesting idea, but I feel like there is a crucial point missing. What if I do not want a random water tube hanging into my water kettle? Feels like that is a big hole in a otherwise great thought through product.
paulluuk
Also, having to boil water in a water kettle first is a minor, but significant enough, inconvenience. It's why so many people now have hot water taps for tea, and use espresso machines instead of filter coffee.
ndsipa_pomu
Here in the UK, I only know one person who has a boiling water tap (they've been renovating an old cottage and are a fan of tech) though I wasn't a fan went I went to visit and tried it out (not why I went to visit). I'm more of a fan of the Unix/Linux philosophy of "do one job and do it well" as appliances are more likely to break when they have multiple jobs to do, so I was slightly against the idea of it anyhow. The main criticism I have of it is that it's far more likely to cause scalds/burns as you have to bring the container to the tap (specifically an Aeropress) and it's more difficult to control the flow of water. With a kettle, you can move the kettle to the container and it's far more controllable in terms of water flow. I'm also not a fan of the tap needing to keep pre-heated water in an insulated container all the time - only a small use of energy, but it seems unnecessary to me.
michaelmior
> so many people now have hot water taps for tea
I know they exist but I've only ever seen one house with such a tap and that was a very well off family member. I don't think these are terribly common.
BrandoElFollito
> so many people now have hot water taps for tea
I have never seen that anywhere at houses I visited in France, Germany, Italy, Poland, a few US.
I am not saying that this is not a thing, it is just that "so many" depends on the demographics.
brynx97
I wouldn't consider it an inconvenience in my kitchen. I'm highly interested in this. However, $700 is a lot. So, like others mentioned, I'd first like to see a demo video at the very least of it in action.
Different teas require different and specific temperatures for optimal results. A hot water tap cannot do this. I love the minimalism in the product design for this!
tashoecraft
I disagree. There's a very large espresso market for those who want a cheaper device that doesn't have the complications of a boiler. I have a flair espresso machine myself.
Adding a boiler I'd guess would double the price, so I think it's a good decision to leave off.
shermantanktop
“So many” should be heavily qualified. It’s nowhere near true in my experience (in the US) and I suspect this may only be true in specific places, or economic classes, or maybe it’s just you and two friends.
flakeoil
How much energy is that hot water tap wasting by keeping some tank with water hot throughout the day (and maybe night) for just a few cups of tea/coffee?
klausa
One of us is making their coffee wrong, because my espresso making is definitely more inconvenient than a pour-over.
grues-dinner
Is it still thermally stable after a low-speed journey through a long (? Hard to say how long it is, or if you just plonk it into an open kettle of water as there are only close ups) narrow plastic tube? And what about cold water already in the tube?
If thermal stability is important enough to make such an advertising claim, you should probably show a comparison of input temperatures where the water meets the coffee over the course of multiple cycles against a representative competitor. With actual data rather than stylised cartoon graphs like in TV adverts for washing powder or whatever.
Woolly claims like that without clear evidence really make sound like audiophile woo territory, which would be a shame if you've actually done the research!
spressoe
Thermal stability is arguably one of the most important aspects of espresso machine. If the water in the espresso machine boiler is sitting at 95°C, by the time this hot water reaches the group head it will lose some of the temperature. Lose 2°C and you're good. Lose 5°C and you still might be good but already at the edge of getting the crap out of the machine. Lose more than that and you're not gonna want to drink it.
Traditional E61 espresso machines whose water boiler is at ΔT cm's away from the group head, solve the problem of temperature surf with heavy duty pipes, boilers, isolation and materials to keep the temperature loss at the minimum.
More modern espresso machines place the water boiler just above the group head so they're basically solving the problem other way around: keeping the ΔT at minimum so giving no or minimum space for temperature loss.
As for this design, I am not sure how does it solve this problem.
enjo
In addition I would need to some justification for the idea that water stored in a clean tank without access to light is somehow worse than fresh out of a filter.
prmoustache
> Also, for $700 independent reviews are also a must.
Also for $700 you don't want to be the guinea pig.
IAmGraydon
Honestly, $700 is considered a very inexpensive price point in the espresso world.
Kirby64
For something that is essentially a slightly automated manual lever machine, it is quite expensive. Anything from Flair or the other lever machine companies is far less than that.
Without actually fully heating the coffee for your and having a tank, etc, I don’t see a huge advantage here over those types of machines.
0xffff2
Is it really? How many home users are really spending that much on an espresso machine? As someone who owns a ~$1000 machine (Profitec Go), I definitely feel like the $500-$1000 range is "end game" for the vast majority of people, not "very inexpensive".
prmoustache
Not if you have used the same bialetti moka pot for decades, only replacing the rubber seal once every year.
osener
I don't understand these comments, both the product and the website is fantastic. This is the most impressive solo project I've seen in my life. I'm especially intrigued by the novel grinder design; and it is amazing that you could fit the motor in there. Top notch industrial design coupled with novel approaches. Almost in too-good-to-be-true land, but I will take your claims at face value. If this all checks out, this is an amazing set of products for the enthusiasts at home at a good price point (considering the market).
And don't get discouraged by the attacks on your web design, I think the website is excellent the way it is. Leave it to some reviewers to go into nitty gritty real world stuff; your website does a great job of showcasing the design language and what's great about the product.
Arelius
I mean, the problem is the website is designed as if it's trying to hide something from me. Giving the benefit of the doubt, I don't think that's the case, but my, and I think many other's tuned "Something scammy on the internet is going on" alarm bells are going off. So I think that's why the criticism is so harsh.
And generally Show HN's posts are taken as a request for constructive criticism, which I think most are.
Specifically, those two tubes that fade into the darkness is just begging for an explanation.
smeeeeeeeeeeeee
I think I did make a mistake in not having the product in more real life environments. My kitchen is not very pretty so I set up a little photo area to capture all the images and video. Now I will find some kitchens to borrow.
GuB-42
> My kitchen is not very pretty
I would love to see the machine in a messy kitchen, where it is used to actually make coffee. Because to be honest, looking at the picture, it looks more like a decorative object than a functional coffee machine. Seeing it in its natural environment shows that it is the machine you use to make your own coffee (you do, right?), give some practicality.
To be fair, no one does that, it is not how marketing works, I guess. But here, it is not a regular espresso machine where we can immediately see how it works because we have already seen dozens of them, so a more practical shot saying "it is doesn't just look good on the countertop, it has a function, and that function is to make coffee".
Arelius
Makes sense! Sounds like an easy fix.
But just from a practical consumer perspective. I want to know more about what the tube and power cable connect to. Since this is designed to be a new novel "compact" espresso machine, I would have higher standards in that regard compared to more conventional machines.
halflife
You obviously invested a lot in this product. I think that maybe renting a high end kitchen and bringing a professional photographer would go a long way!
sgc
You might need to give something away to make it happen, but an oddball request to an owner selling their nice home would probably work out, even if it took a few tries to find the right fit.
smeeeeeeeeeeeee
Thank you so much, this really means a lot.
lisper
Yeah, this. Anyone who criticizes this project is simply revealing their ignorance of what it takes to build a product like this. Super-impressive. And the web-site looks top-notch too (though there is some constructive criticism in other threads that would improve it). Hard to believe this was a solo project.
gklitz
> Yeah, this. Anyone who criticizes this project is simply revealing their ignorance of what it takes to build a product like this
I don’t know what it takes to build a computer, but I know what it takes for me to buy one. The feedback given is all constructive from people who are saying that this product is as it’s currently presented to their taste and the customer is always right in matters of taste.
Also there is a matter of knowing your audience. The website looks top notch to people who build websites not to people who buy expensive coffee equipment. There doesn’t seem to be a single non cgi or cgi-like image of the machine or video of it running. These things a trivial to add, so it’s fair to give OP the feedback that this should be added.
svardilfari
First thought: Cash grab
There's no way someone who designed, manufactured, tested and refined all this original equipment wouldn't include some technical photos, documents, experience or anything to 'sell' the product. And with pre-orders? There isn't even a single video of it making espresso without total cropping.
For reference - The owner lists his studies in media design and works for Terra Kaffe - claiming involvement in building Terra Kaffe TK-02
I'll happily change my opinion if anything resembling original invention is presented.
skue
If this were a cash grab, why in the world would a scammer post this to Show HN, instead of targeting a much larger, less savvy customer base via a crowdfunding platform?
Anything is possible, but I don’t know why you would jump to that conclusion without taking the opportunity to engage with the OP.
returningfory2
What do you mean by "cash grab"? Are you suggesting this is a scam?
salomonk_mur
I'd argue it looks like it, yes.
rainbowzootsuit
Giving me ZPM Espresso heeby geebies, but more money. Maybe inflation happens on scams too.
All the images look to be animation which is a warning sign for me.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/zpmespresso/pid-control...
IAmGraydon
Yeah honestly I'm in the same boat here. Something seems very off about this. There's not a single video on the site or YT of the device working. The video on the site is intentionally cropped so we only see the portafilter. Why was that conscious decision made? The price also seems WAY out of line, as handmade machines like this go for many thousands of dollars. The builder also is completely anonymous, which seems odd for a passion project like this.
I spun up a little project a few years ago and designed a product based around analog synthesizers. It was something I really loved doing, and I dropped videos of the R&D process all the time. How could you not!? It's the best part of the process and it's great marketing too. Again, things just seem strange here. I hope I'm wrong. Someone in this thread seems to have bought one, so I suppose we'll see.
speerer
Please make sure you protect your design in the UK and EU by registering it. It doesn't cost a huge amount, and the design is striking and different enough that it would be a shame if it was copied.
(Unless you're comfortable with that of course!)
axkdev
Good advice!
buro9
It's a beautiful pump, but feels like only part of what an espresso machine is.
What heats the water? What provides temperature control? How would I produce steam?
It is so single purpose that it does not feel useful by itself, it feels like the prototype for part of a whole.
I like the idea of it, and I like the idea of "part of the whole" being a composable coffee machine where one could put together components which were all independently maintainable and highly serviceable... this feels like a taster for that, but by itself is very expensive for a pump that claims to be an espresso machine but could not produce an espresso alone, and would need something else to make any espresso derived coffee.
What this replaces is a lever espresso machine, but I'm not sure anyone with a home coffee machine would've purchased a lever espresso machine without the integrated boiler... and if they would, then this is right there https://bellabarista.co.uk/collections/lever-machines/produc...
You would benefit greatly from a video that showed the workflow end-to-end of making an espresso... from bean to the final drink.
anon84873628
Flair, which you linked, is hugely popular. Several people in my office have one even though I would not consider them coffee enthusiasts like myself.
Most people are going to have a decent electric kettle anyway (especially if they want to make pour overs) so being able to save costs and counter space by reusing what you have already makes tons of sense.
If you told me I could get something roughly equivalent to the Flair, for roughly the same price, with programmable flow profiling? Hell yeah!
I have the budget and desire for a Decent, but not the counter space or interest in cleaning and maintenance. Something like this machine would be very appealing.
esperent
I have a Flair and I'm not that happy with it. It looks beautiful but I feel like they pulled a fast one by providing the, cheapest ugliest power brick ever. There's lots of other small issues that makes it frustrating to use on a daily basis, although it's a great conversation piece for sure.
I feel this one is trying to do the same thing, all focus on the pump, 0.1% plastic - but ignore that huge plastic power brick, that doesn't count.
When it comes to espresso machines the devil really is in the details.
skue
> I have a Flair and I'm not that happy with it. It looks beautiful but I feel like they pulled a fast one by providing the, cheapest ugliest power brick ever.
What power brick? Flair makes manually operated, lever-based espresso makers. You heat the water in a separate kettle and you can buy whichever brand of kettle you prefer.
Are you referring to a Flair grinder? That seems irrelevant to the gp’s point.
otekengineering
Have you looked into third party power bricks?
If you're willing to spend the money, you can get much smaller and better looking AC/DC adapters than the standard black brick.
cryptozeus
Absolutely love this , congrats on making your dream a reality. I know how much work it is to bring something from concept to actual product one can use. Also it hurts me to say this but the website is trash. I know you are trying to go for modern look but at no point I can see the full machine, the price is hidden and there are just over exposed images and videos with very hard to read information. This will not convert. Why do I have to add it to cart to see the price ? Please DM me if you need help with website. Some examples of similar sites that convert (based on my exp in e-com and retail designs/development)
https://us.rok.coffee/products/presso-smartshot-soft-teal https://aeropress.com/products/aeropress-coffee-maker-premiu...
Good luck !
"...it doesn’t work with starbucks style oily roasts" I think this is a feature :)
teruakohatu
> Also it hurts me to say this but the website is trash.
Then better to not to say it at all. I don’t think anyone on HN should call someone else’s work “trash”.
I personally really liked the website on mobile. Other than missing a demo video it communicated the value proposition.
fkyoureadthedoc
I think at this point anyone that posts here expects at least half the comments to be about the website
cheschire
You missed GP's point. One should not call another's work "trash" here. That is not what this site is about.
That does not mean the site cannot be critiqued, however, as plenty of other commenters have successfully accomplished here today.
wpietri
I think one shouldn't say that on its own, as it's not helpful. But given that it's in the middle of a lot of clear and specific detail that includes an offer of help, I think it's fine as emotion-conveying hyperbole.
smeeeeeeeeeeeee
Thanks for the advice and the feedback!
The price and full profile pictures should be visible on the store page without adding to cart, maybe something is going wrong?
Here is what it looks like on all of my computers:
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cryptozeus
My bad ! Should not have said that. Apologies to op, i am human
rahimnathwani
I've been using an Aeropress for years (long enough to have had to buy new gaskets).
Our kitchen doesn't have much counter space, but that Presso Smartshot looks good (at least in the video). Do you happen to know if it's actually good?
BTW I had no idea Aeropress now sells a non-plastic version. I guess the output is the same.
idk1
This looks great! I think I need to wait for some reviews to know if the coffee is good, but I would also like to offer you some advice. Your website is very poorly designed and does not match the craftsmanship of the machine itself. The animated fonts, constant videos, lack of white space—it all adds up to something that feels like a quick design job by a mid-level design student.
Any paid template from any of the big website building companies would be better than what you have at the moment.
Also, photography-wise, as a lot of other people have suggested here, take a few steps back. Just show the whole product on a worktop, without videos. You're not Apple; it’s not iconic yet. A close-up won’t suffice. We need to see the whole thing static, not in a close-up video all the time. (The reason you’ve done this is that you’re very familiar with the design. Visitors are not—you’ve forgotten what it’s like to see it for the first time.)
I hope this comes across in the way it’s intended. The device is gorgeous; it should be treated with the respect of a good website.
krisoft
> The reason you’ve done this is that you’re very familiar with the design. Visitors are not—you’ve forgotten what it’s like to see it for the first time.
Maybe part of the problem. I suspect that is not the whole reason. I think they are not happy (consciously or unconsciously) with the appearance of the pump and/or don't consider it part of the product. And that is why they are excluding it from the images. Sometimes literally photoshopping it out.
smeeeeeeeeeeeee
Hey, you can actually see the pump here, in the kit you can use to put it in other kinds of espresso machines - it's inside the machine. I'll find a way to incorporate it into the product page for the espresso machine as well.
huhtenberg
I think you might have easier time selling the pump kit than the machine and the grinder. For one, I am almost sold on trying the kit, but the description is missing necessary details - what's in the box, ideally with a photo, and which machines it can be used with (and which it cannot be).
Also, related - set up a mailing list and add a subscription link at the bottom of every page. I bet people that are interested but hesitant would love to get a ping when you add more info to the website.
krisoft
Thank you for the explanation! I was totally confused about it. I thought the pump is at the other end of the tube.
In that case I agree that a video where one makes coffee with it would be useful. That would have disabused me of my confusion immediately.
detectivestory
I don't think its really fair to call this site "poorly designed".
jen729w
> Any paid template from any of the big website building companies would be better than what you have at the moment.
This is a Squarespace site. See: the favicon.
huhtenberg
[flagged]
idk1
In my defense, you have cut off the second half of the sentence when quoting me. Which is not the sort of thing I'd expect to happen around here.
I hope this provides some context: what I mean is "poorly designed" in the context of the product, which is in the second half of the sentence you omitted. There’s a mismatch between the product quality and the website quality. You’re right—it’s a 5 or 6 out of 10 website. Not a bad score at all, certainly not poor. I would enjoy and not comment on most other content using this design style. However, a 10/10 product (let’s assume it is) should not have a website that looks like this. It damages the brand. And that, I think, justifies calling it poor. (But what’s the worst that could happen? Fewer sales? It’s fine, really.)
123pie123
for a sales pitch, i was really put off by the website design as well
huhtenberg
[flagged]
wpietri
There's more than one kind of poor design. These days there's quite a lot of bad design that looks slicker than something in the geocities era, but is worse in terms of how well it meets its purpose.
I agree with idk1; however pretty this page is, it's terribly designed as a product page. I am less likely to buy the product after seeing the page than before. And reading through the comments, that's true for many people. Is it pretty? Yes. But a pretty thing that harms your purpose is worse designed than an ugly thing that serves it.
pkulak
I feel like I’ve seen a dozen photos of it now and still have no idea what it looks like. Could you maybe take a couple steps back and snap a shot or two?
tetris11
Thank you -- all these weird close up shots accentuating the curves, but no idea what it looks like just sitting on a table.
GuB-42
Also consider that what is pictured misses many of the parts that makes up the full setup. For the hot water supply, it requires something like a kettle on the side. Also, as mentioned, it also requires an external power brick and something to act as a drip tray.
Seeing the full setup as envisioned would be nice. With the machine, kettle and grinder, all plugged in, and with all the accessories. This is an unusual machine, looking at the pictures, I have no idea how making my morning coffee with it would be like.
pandemic_region
This. Plus a clear video of the thing(s) in action. Right now I have no idea what I would be actually buying.
cryptozeus
Yeh totally agree just replied with full details on this.
halflife
First of all, congratulations. It must be a monumental task to design and manufacture a mechanical machine.
However, the website is kind of confusing regarding the operation of the machine. You say that the machine accepts hot water directly, so no boiler or thermoblock, which results in a simpler machine. But where does the water come from? I see 2 pipes leading to/from the machine in the videos, so I’m guessing the water feeds from one and drains from the other? So you need to preheat water in a container? Won’t the water cool rapidly while traveling in the pipe?
rustman123
I have the same impression. I guess the machine is completely passive regarding temperature and requires a) a preheated water source and b) a hot-water flush before each use to heat the machine and push hot water into the hoses
That means it’s a pump attached to a grouphead.
cpach
Cool product!
However, to me the site feels very anonymous. I’m not currently in the market for a coffee grinder, but in general if I where to spend $700 on a product I at least would like to know things such as the name of the company, what country the company is incorporated in, warranty info, returns policy, etc.
A presentation of the founder wouldn’t hurt either, and preferably some 3rd party reviews of the product.
smeeeeeeeeeeeee
Thank you!
I will work on that aspect, thank you for the feedback. May have gotten more than a little bit of tunnel vision on the products.
There is a warranty page here, https://velofuso.com/warranty (which should now be displaying properly at the top of the store) but more importantly there is going to be a full spare parts catalogue on ship day.
omega3
If I was in a market for minimalistic espresso machine I'd just get a manual espresso machine, something like the cafelat robot [1]. No plastic, standard professional 58mm group head (compared to the 51mm here), pressure gauge, no need for any hot water tubes, no electronics
gklitz
For OP, this is also a great reference for what their website should look like.
dsego
Albeit more user friendly it does look dated and not as premium.
smeeeeeeeeeeeee
Manual espresso machines are great and you would not be disappointed buying one! The main advantage of one with a pump is how much more repeatable the entire workflow is in terms of preheating and maintaining pressure - you don't need to repeatedly pour and purge water from it, and the pump will output exactly the same pressure every time.
In case you have 26 minutes to kill, here is an interesting video on the subject of group head diameters.
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It was a lot of work as a solo project but I hope you guys think it’s cool. When I say “we” in the website it’s only in the most royal sense possible. I also did all the photo/videography. I started out designing a single machine for personal use, but like many things it sort of spiraled out of control from there.
I felt like espresso machines were getting very large, plasticky, and app-integrated without actually improving the underlying technologies that make them work. The noisy vibratory pumps in particular are from 1977 and haven’t really changed since then. So I wanted to focus on making the most advanced internals I could and leaving everything else as minimalist as possible. The pump is, as far as I know, completely unique in terms of power density and price. Without spending several thousand dollars, it was difficult to find a machine with a gear pump, and adjustable pressure was also similarly expensive but this machine has those things and costs a normal amount to buy. You can also turn the pressure way down and make filter coffee.
I also saw so many people (including myself) using a scale while making espresso, and even putting a cup below the group head to catch drips, entirely negating the drip tray, so I basically designed for that! The profile of the machine is much lighter on the eyes and doesn’t loom in the corner like my old espresso machine did.
And for the grinder, basically everything on the market uses conical and flat burrs that have descended from spice grinders, and the same couple of standard sizes. Sometimes larger companies design their own burrs, but only within those existing shapes. There is sort of a rush to put larger and larger burrs into coffee grinders, which makes sense, but with cylindrical burrs, you can increase the cutting surface way more relative to the size of the grinder. When grinders get too big, maintaining alignment becomes mechanically cumbersome, but the cylindrical burr can be very well supported from the inside, and there is the added benefit of hiding the entire motor within the burr itself. The resulting grounds are just outright better than all the other grinders I have used, but obviously this is a matter of taste and my own personal bias.
The biggest downside for the grinder is that it doesn’t work with starbucks style oily roasts, because the coffee expands so much while traveling down through the burrs and can sometimes clog up the teeth. It doesn’t hurt the grinder but it does require cleaning (which is tool-free!). Another downside for both machines is the fact that they run on DC power so it’s best if you have a spot in your kitchen to tuck away the power brick.
I also made a kit that makes the gear pump a drop-in upgrade for other espresso machines, to reduce noise and add adjustable pressure.
https://velofuso.com/store/p/gear-pump-upgrade-kit
The roughest part of this process were the moments midway through development where they weren’t working at all. When the grinder is just jamming itself instantly or the fourth factory in a row tells you the part you’re making is impossible or the pump is alternating between spraying water out the side and into your face and not pumping at all. And the default thought is “Of course it’s not working, if this was going to work someone else would have already made it like this”. The route you’ve taken is fundamentally different enough that there are no existing solutions to draw on. You’re basically feeling around in the dark for months on end, burning money, and then one day, every little cumulative change suddenly adds up to a tasty espresso. And it’s not perfect yet, but you at least can see the road ahead.
Anyways, this is way more than I expected to write, thank you for reading! Tell me if you have any questions