Do quests, not goals

I think about this a lot. I think my dad was more goal oriented and I’m more process oriented. I see every day spent working toward a goal as a valuable step toward it, while I think he tried to always shorten the path to reach his goals, and ended up not ever achieving them because of it.

As an example, I do car restoration as a hobby. It’s a big, big task to basically dismantle a car, fix body issues, rebuild the engine and transmission, clean up all the parts, and put it back together. Looking at the entire task outside of it, seems almost impossible to do, but I almost never think about the end of the work. I just think about the next thing I need to do.

I think marathon runners do something similar, or so I’ve heard anecdotally.

I also think it's about the whimsicality of it. Focusing on the process sounds so rational and cognitive. The issue is that it is devoid of feeling. A quest makes me feel something! Adventure! Let's go! There'll be dragons, there'll be riches and there'll be friendship! I need to seek out like minded individuals, I need to conquer my challenges, I need to go for the rewards that make me feel eternally rich!

That's what I feel when I think about a quest. Sure, you could say it's all good advice too, but that's just rational. Emotions move me, thoughts move me only a little. If I can get that advice (conquer challenges, seek peers/mentors, go for what I want) by thinking about it emotionally that's much more powerful than thinking about it rationally.

The rational understanding != the emotional understanding

I just can't wait for companies to rebrand "sprints" to "quests" and "projects" to "campaigns". Story points naturally convert to experience points. Crunch time death march could then be "final boss fight".

I think I slip into this mode automatically. As soon as I think of a "goal," I immediately ask myself what kinds of habits a person who accomplished that goal would likely have. Then I find the lowest possible resistance way to have that habit from this day forward.

Like, say I want to hike/climb some specific set of mountains. Great. What kinds of habits does a person who hikes all those mountains have? Well, they're probably someone who exercises every day. I can, as of today, become "someone who exercises every day, no matter what," if I set my requirement as "only one minute per day."

Habits grow on their own. I don't think it's really necessary to stage them. Once you see yourself as a certain kind of person, you just become that kind of person. And before you know it, since you're just like a person who hikes all those mountains, you end up being someone who has hiked all the mountains.

It's also the only effective way I've found to deal with my fear of success when it comes to big goals. I don't set them. I just decide to become the kind of person who would accomplish them, and by then, it doesn't feel like some impressive accomplishment. It just feels like a normal thing someone like me would do.

I think that another aspect of this verbal difference is that quests are meaningful because they inherently possess some level of difficulty and adventure. Taking on a quest means that you have a mindset with room for stumbling and getting back up and that you will eventually overcome. Focussing on a goal may sooner lead to frustration and giving up.

It is a fail/succeed mindset rather than a play mindset I imagine. I definitely feel a difference between a chore and a game. That said not all chores are easily turned into games. But seeking games over chores probably leads to a happier time.

I think it's reverse causation. Motivating and meaningful activities feel like quests. Boring but necessary activities that we procrastinate on make us reach for "goal-setting" as a cure for the procrastination.

Wouldn't it be nice if we could somehow feel intrinsic motivation and meaning for the boring stuff too, so that even cleaning the toilet felt like part of a grand adventure?

But you need to think farther. Let's use writing a book as a stand in for other things, e.g. being able to code, playing an instrument, mastering embedded electronics programming, you name it:

The person who enjoys¹ writing a book and wants to finish them will likely become better at writing books than the person who just wrote a book to cross it off their bucket list.

There is also people who enjoy the process of writing so much, that the outcome literally doesn't matter anymore and they don't have any ambition to finish anything.

In reality most people who achieve great things have both a way/process/quest and many destinations/outcomes/goals along the way and the two things have to be somewhat in balance. Thst balance can differ for different people.

When people say you should focus on the way, not on the destination what they mean is: Don't be the person who just writes a book to cross it off the bucket list, while hating every second of the process and learning nothing from having done it.

¹: The word "enjoy" doesn't have to mean they feel good doing it, it just means there is an urge to do this versus something else

Maybe this is insightful at its core, but “growth” and especially “growth mindset” is the most LinkedIn performance review garbage I’ve ever been force fed, so it’s a bit of a turnoff simply based on how I’ve seen it used in practice.

The problem is, if you follow that religiously, you'll never achieve anything worthwhile. All of those push you away from finishing, the same way that their opposite do.

It's valuable for "unlearning", and I am one of the people that must always be reminded of it. But if you go and "learn" that way outright, it will damage you too.

A different name offers a different perspective, because of all the associations with the name. Problems that are hard to solve are often hard because we're stuck on a particular perspective as to how to solve them. Reframing with new associations is a way to gain a new perspective, to look at the problem differently, to gain insight that you previously did not have. This is an extremely common and effective problem solving technique.

This view ignores the importance of, and empirical data around, psychosemantics.

Additionally as others touched on, a precise vocabulary or nomenclature allows us to be precise about our intentions and gives us a framework for making decisions.

"Quest" orients you around the journey instead of the destination, which can have many benefits.

It helps to not consider this, or any other technique, as one-size-fits-all doctrine. I personally have always considered myself very goal-oriented, but this article allowed me to understand things from a different angle and realize that I'm actually much more process-oriented. This will help me make future decisions around projects when planning them out and accounting for the need for sustained motivation.

I have a different take. A pet peeve of mine is give things a good name and define what you mean by it. A good name is as much as possible self-explaining. Quest rhymes well with adventure, detours, heroism,... the word itself tends to create the mindset that the author wants you to have.

Your interpretation is inaccurate. It was not about calling it differently and it will become something else kind of message, but to look at the things you do differently so you'd have a chance doing differently eventually, doing what is important at last.

Some (quite a few actually) need specific tags and title on everything so this assign very specific words to matters having different composition for everyone works for them, this is a typical way of relaying ideas to masses (regrettably). But the message is not what words to use but how to do things. We only can speak - exchange ideas and information - about things with words, unfortunately. Well, some can dance specific ideas and todo list to each other, but that is just freak exception. We use words for thoughts.

Names matter. Subtle differences in perception change your stance in approaching and interpreting the thing. Like "violin" vs "fiddle", or "assertive" vs "aggressive".

I think it's subtly insightful because a goal focuses us on the endpoint and a quest focuses us on the journey that we need to undertake to get there. But to each his or her own!

It's about changing your mindset and how you approach your goal/quest

Just don't fall into the trap that this means you shouldn't have goals. I would phrase it as: The way is more important than the destinations, but destinations are also worth having if you want to continue on the way.

> Scott Adams (before he went a bit cuckoo)

Apropo of nothing his book "How to Fail at Almost Everything and Still Win Big" was excellent, I remember seeing when he first joined Twitter. I was one of his first few followers, even said "welcome" and he said "thanks".

Then he got divorced and angry and red pilled. Happens far too often..

Also ADHD (medicated) and I would say terminology matters a lot. GTD is it's own distraction loop (for me). I enjoy identifying and grouping problem spaces and creating TODO actions to solve them. Thus get stuck on steps 1-3(4) and never get to the doing because I am doing!

I'm doing the GTD and getting 3-4 of the 5 steps done! Good job me. Except it's not, it was just another distraction. When I view what needs to be done in terms of "action that does the thing", or going on quest* as described here, I am much more successful. Meds makes the doing of something productive possible, but that something can be anything productive.

Knowing I am GTD by working on the first few steps is getting something done. But not really. When I narrow down what I need to do into a single main "quest" and/or coming upon a side-quest and seeing it as that so I can get back to the main thread, I'm taking real action towards it. That doing of something is the actual doing of the thing. Taking the journey of the quest minus all this busy work of defining what I want to get done or what my quest/journey should be, and doing it instead.

* I don't actually tell myself I'm on a quest like this article seems to suggest, but "quest" is a very good descriptor of my process (and may start using it because I personally find it fun, and my ADHD like fun)

Maybe that depends on your mental definition of quest. I don't think of quests as "getting things done" -- they are both more significant and less certain than that. Quests are adventures where you hope for significant outcomes, but where there are many uncertainties. It's OK, perhaps even expected, for a quest to have unexpected outcomes. A quest implies less certainty about the outcome and more of an expectation about personal growth.

A lot of GTD is just drudgery to accomplish. Quests are never drudgery. Difficult, maybe, but the journey is probably a bigger part of the quest than the outcome.

The author behind Raptitude, David, has spoken candidly about his ADHD, and the block method he's talking about is a modified, simpler version of GTD aimed at people who are not naturally productive or struggle with more complex systems like GTD.

But notice that you cherry-picked accomplishments that sound impressive. You didn't say "I watched 10 seasons of The Office", "I wasted over 8000 hours on HN", or "I impulse-bought a shed full of tools I never use", it happened organically!

Personally I am glad no one mentioned that book. It's an overly long blog post with some anecdotes mixed in to stretch it to book length.

The difference is, in games like DnD the risk is effectively zero because you’re dedicating time and resources to the game for your enrichment

In all other cases it’s a challenge that you don’t want, and impedes time and resources for desired enriching activities

So the former is growth, the latter is stagnation

For many, it depends what kind of setback it is. A technical problem can be intriguing and challenging in a good way. People problems or red tapey stuff can be frustrating(or vice versa depending on roles).

I wonder how much of it has to do with the reward. In D&D you get experience points, gain levels, get powerful magic items, etc. There is generally immediate positive feedback when you accomplish a goal or overcome an obstacle in the game world. But in real life, most times the only reward is that the obstacle has been cleared.

I am a weird person and for me thinking about the ultimate outcome (death) helps. Cannot be avoided, only procrastinated, but not by much and with great cost. Also the realization of my insignificance helps too. If I was not here, I was not born, if I did not turn that corner in my life, all the people in my surroundings would do very very similarly. Not the same but likely along the same trajectory. Similar good, similar bad. Have friends, child, colleague, husband. Someone was achieving in my place what I achieved. There are rare examples in history for exceptions, but even if my unique gift for humanity achievement was missing, the humanity was doing well anyway (we surely had one off people like Einstein or Taylor Swift - hehe - wasted yet here we are, we cope without that some way we call our precious life).

No point tiptoing around my precious life because it is so boringly ordinary that it exists in the billions. It is fragile, a little miracle in fact, so better not waste it by taking too big risks but not risking it by putting it into a protective case and put in a guarded corner for show either. Risk it, so not to risking it becoming too insignificant. Insignificant not for the crowds and social media outlets but for yourself! Bad things will hapen to cautious and not that cautious people alike. At least at and around the end. Better not wasting the time until then by putting us in a comfort cage.

Nothing new was said here actually, with different words this was told a million times perhaps, yet, it needs to be repeated.

> For most people in most work challenges, the actual survival threat from obstacles is small.

It's all fun and games until someone from HR reaches out to you for "a quick call".

How to down regulate the threat response?

You're being either naive or disingenuous.

If you die or fail in DnD, it just makes up for a story, there's no actual impact to your life, no consequence.

Setbacks at work could absolutely have a real consequence. Indirectly making it harder to get a promotion, bonus, better QoL at work, etc.

I agree that one should be used to challenges and avoid becoming stressed due to work but saying "you get excited when you encounter a problem in a game" is just ridiculous. The game is designed to tweak that obstacle to be just enough and you can always turn it off and go back to your life.

A problem in your actual life is not the same. Life is not a game.

I think you're looking to much at the practice, and too little at the framing.

The point is not that the structure of a quest works better. The point is that the framing of a quest works better. It inspires, it acknowledges there will be adversity, and thus makes adversity feel like much less of a setback.

Same here! Most of my life is in Omnifocus specifically (GTD-focused todo app), and I structure the projects like the quests this author mentions. I have to make them gut-feeling boolean checks if that makes sense. "Declutter the house" is perfect, because I know when it's decluttered: when I feel like it is. If I get too specific, there's pretty much 0% chance I'm going to honestly complete it with any sort of accuracy to that goal.

Also, hope you had a good day at work!

I feel this comment in my soul. If you have any recommendations for resources on general project/life management, please feel free to share.

I thought I had ADHD but then I got tested and I have high functioning autism

"I don't trust myself" stop saying that to yourself and you will trust yourself more, especially if you reinforce that feeling with reparative action.

I’m not sure the article fully gets there (he’s clearly driving business for his own course), but the general idea is that you don’t set a “goal” of a thing you hope to accomplish - you should be fully envisioning who that future you will be - and what they do every day…then start doing that. So the quest is about who you want to become, while the goal is just an aspiration without a real vision.

Sometimes it can be as simple as asking yourself, "what if this were fun?" What would have to happen?

Well, I'd have to have a different attitude and find something I enjoy about it, for starters. Listening to an extremely engaging podcast or audiobook while I do chores, for example, helps a lot. Or challenging myself to find the humor in a situation.

But those are coping mechanisms for dealing with necessary but annoying tasks. Work related quests require a different approach -- I guess my first question of something feels like a miserable grind is, "is this really the thing I want to be doing with my life?" Sometimes no amount of reframing a job will make it tolerable if it's just not your thing.

At uni I lived with a friend who was doing his doctor of biology. When he got home he went like 200% on all his chores and within a short amount of time he was sitting in front of the TV having a beer. Being very efficient with the boring stuff can help to get it over with. I think about him a lot when it takes me 2 hours in the morning for lunch boxes, dog and getting ready myself.

It has to be authentic in my experience. The naming doesn’t matter. It’s the emotional response it creates.

Procrastination = lazy Or Procrastination = in preparation

Whoever thinks this is good advice has an extremely easy life. Most people have literally no slack time at all. You're supposed to execute your great plans in the 1 hour per day you have after work, commute, taking care of family, and occasionally taking care of yourself? The hour in which you are deeply exhausted? If that doesn't sound like you, congratulations: you have an easy life.

So the real advice is the same as all life advice under the hood: just be born into privilege.