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edanm
Can confirm - I'm a huge fan of Greg Egan and specifically Permutation city, and also a huge fan of qntm's stories. Lena is probably the most famous, though not even the best ("I don't know Timmy" is better IMO).
Also, I finally read qntm's Antimemetics division and, while it is a bit lacking in the end, it is one of the most "oh wow this is a crazy good idea" stories I've read in years.
Vetch
I'd also wager that "I don't know Timmy" is more thematically related. I feel most of the discussion in this thread glosses over what is most unsettling about Permutation City. It isn't just a book about what it could be like to be a simulated mind, it's most deeply about exploring the disquieting metaphysical consequences of computable minds. I can't think of a story that has as thoroughly scattered my basic grasp of reality as this one. Only Blindsight even begins to comes close.
In "I don't know Timmy" there's a sequence that goes:
"Well, we can't exactly turn it off."
"Why not?" asked Tim, halfway to the door, then stopped mid-stride and stood still, realising.
"Oh."
But you can turn it off without consequence and Permutation City explores the disturbing implications of why thoroughly (with a deus ex machina ending to save causal physics, as expected of an Egan story, physics is what has plot armor).
edanm
> I can't think of a story that has as thoroughly scattered my basic grasp of reality as this one. Only Blindsight even begins to comes close.
Absolutely! Very few books have also basically changed my philosophical outlook on something as much as this has (I had the seeds of the idea before the book, but the book really cemented specific concepts around computation and thought/consciousness/identity even mean).
Another book that is fairly different, but has had a big impact on some of my views of things, is the Three Body Problem trilogy (specifically the second and third book).
ajmurmann
> But you can turn it off without consequence and Permutation City explores the disturbing implications of why thoroughly
Can you turn it off? The entire universe is 100% deterministic and the "stack" of universes in question is based on the same seed data. So if you decide to turn the n+1 simulation off, the same decision will be made in the n-1 universe. The simulation isn't running on some self-replicating automaton like in Permutation City. Of course the universe being 100% deterministic also poses the question if you can "decide" to do anything, since all decisions are already made.
zeekaran
Make sure to read Ra as well. One of my favorite webfics. https://qntm.org/ra
LeifCarrotson
It's one of my favorite webfics too, so I got a hardcover:
https://www.amazon.com/Ra-qntm/dp/B096TRWRWX
Have this in my personal library as well as a (paperback) of Permutation City. I think it's awesome they're published online but there's something special about having it in print too.
ajmurmann
I just read the Antimemetics division and qntm's short story collection. I loved the short stories and first ~40-60% of the Antimemetics Division and felt it then got too crazy and abstract. The "magic is real" thing has new worried as I usually avoid fantasy. Do you think I'll still like Ra?
lukifer
While if didn’t hook me as quickly as Antimemetics or Ra, I also thoroughly enjoyed Fine Structure: https://qntm.org/structure
grfhtsdfvv
Thank you for this link, I’m really enjoying it.
yencabulator
Better link to read (same story, not the first draft): https://qntm.org/mmacevedo
schubart
Fantastic read, thanks both of you for sharing this.
joshmarlow
That's a great short story. The clinical ambience of it's description really amps it up. Real Black Mirror stuff.
I haven't read Permutation City (on my list) but I really enjoyed Disaspora by the same author (Greg Egan). Similar themes from what I gather.
gattr
More specifically, in Permutation City mind uploading is in its infancy, while in Diaspora it's a run-of-the-mill tech.
I'll add Schild's Ladder to the recommendations.
lloeki
Ah, I was thinking of https://qntm.org/responsibility all along the story, and completely forgot about https://qntm.org/mmacevedo (of which lena is the draft)
dzikimarian
On the side note - most of qntm's works have these small, interesting ideas behind them - really satisfying to read.
pavel_lishin
Egan's "Instantiation" series of short stories is also probably up a similar alley - available in his collection of the same name.
maxglute
Good read, feels like it should be structured as an academic paper with made up bibliographies.
mindcrime
I thought Permutation City was great. One of my favorite sci-fi reads from the last couple of decades. It's probably about time to read it again, as most of the details escape me now.
Anyway, I was going to say... I've always thought that folks who enjoyed Permutation City might also enjoy Glasshouse[1] by Charles Stross[2]. The two novels aren't necessarily overtly similar, but I feel like there's a sort of abstract conceptual kinship there.
edanm
I've long wanted to read Charles Stross and somehow haven't. (Well, I read a few chapters of Accelerando years ago and never finished it, despiting liking it quite a bit.)
Do you think Glasshouse is a good place to start with his writing and is representative of his style? I loved Permutation City, one of my favorite books.
(I would've asked cstross himself but that would seem too awkward!)
mindcrime
Do you think Glasshouse is a good place to start with his writing and is representative of his style?
Well... to me, I'd almost divide Stross' works into two tranches: the "The Laundry Files" books, and everything else. In that regard, I think Glasshouse is fairly representative of the "everything else" tranche. But even then, there's a fair amount of variance in his works. I wouldn't, for example, necessarily compare Halting State and Glasshouse, or Rule 34 and Singularity Sky. I guess that's a way of saying that while Stross has his favored themes and topics, he's far from formulaic and I don't feel like you can pigeon-hole his "style" too narrowly.
That said, I haven't read every other work Stross has written, but I've read a pretty good chunk of them. And almost all of the "The Laundry Files" novels. Me personally, I recommend pretty much all of it. :-)
EDIT: Just realized that there's really a 3rd major tranche of works in Stross' ouvre: the "The Merchant Princes" books. I forgot about those, as I haven't actually read any of them (shame, shame, I know...). All of what I've read of Stross to date is from the "The Laundry Files" series or the "everything else" batch, minus "The Merchant Princes".
KineticLensman
> I forgot about those, as I haven't actually read any of them (shame, shame, I know...)
It's a really great set of stories, nine in total now, and unlike The Laundry Files, a finalised / completed story arc. They evolve quite radically, from an initial portal fantasy (reporter finds herself in an apparently medieval parallel world), via trans-dimensional techno-thriller, multi-timeline developmental economics, to high-concept space war. Highly recommended.
And the Laundry Files has to be the only series I've read where vampires use agile / scrum techniques to source their blood supplies, and where an Elven combined-arms battlegroup make the Waffen-SS look like soft jessies.
Incidentally, the Laundry Files has its own separate spin-off; the New Management series. Also good fun.
BillSaysThis
Merchant Princes series is about my favorite cstross!
yboris
I once commented on HN how much I loved Accelerando and Charles Stross responded suggesting I read his The Rapture of the Nerds. I read it soon after and loved it. I very much enjoy the genre of people living inside computers; I welcome recommendations.
lxgr
> I very much enjoy the genre of people living inside computers; I welcome recommendations.
"Ra" by qntm: https://qntm.org/ra
kybernetikos
I think glasshouse is truly excellent, but to me it's not terribly representative of the other works (most of which I also enjoy - they're just different).
ews
Egan has been my favorite author for years. I like his earlier works (like this one) much more than his last books. I have the impression most books he wrote and published in the last 15 years require a Ph.D. in either Mathematics or Theoretical Physics. Permutation City was my absolute gateway drug to his work and I could not stop talking about it when it first came out.
A series that explores similar ideas (although to a much smaller degree) of uploading, artificial life, and transfumanism, I've been enjoying lately is Pantheon. I just wanted to mention it here since I think you guys will enjoy it.
jeremyjh
Zendegi is a recent book that is quite readable - but I agree regarding most of the others. Permutation City is one of my favorites but I think Diaspora must be my very favorite.
jamilton
I read The Book of All Skies and quite liked it, but yeah, I basically just skimmed over the especially mathy sections. In that one the math is about (spoiler?) how gravity would work with a very unique planet, with comparisons drawn to electrostatics, I think. It was still enjoyable because it's still unique and interesting sci-fi.
arisAlexis
I felt dumb and that I couldn't keep up also with Permutation City
surprisetalk
My book review from last September:
> Reads like a “consciousness and computers are cool” story written by an engineer. A few incredible ideas padded by weak storytelling and philosophical exposition. Probably would’ve been better as a short story.
[0] https://taylor.town/books#permutation-city
If you like this book, I recommend Accelerando, Piranesi, Dick's Ubik, and Ted Chiang's collections.
alexpotato
I read Accelerando recently and it's great.
Hard to believe that it was written in 2005 given the one scene where the main character is walking around generating multiple interlocking crypto contracts to store money for his daughter.
cstross
It was published in 2005 -- actually I wrote the 9 novelettes that went into it from 1998-2003 (they were originally published in Asimov's SF magazine from 2002-2004 before I assembled and rewrote them to make the book).
alexpotato
Not going to lie, getting a comment from THE AUTHOR of a book I greatly enjoyed is now one of the highlights of my 10+ years of being on HN!
I should add: every time I hear the phrase "state vector" I think of Accelerando.
yboris
Thank you for your work! Last time I praised Accelerando on HN you commented that I should read The Rapture of the Nerds. I read it shortly after and loved it!
__MatrixMan__
Blew my mind in the best way. Thank you.
There's a line in there that feels like it could pop up in a permutation city sequel:
> ... running a timing channel attack on the computational ultrastructure of spacetime itself, trying to break through to whatever's underneath...
Does that idea come up anywhere else in your work? If so, I'd go read it.
gpderetta
Yes, very prescient. Also the VR glasses with embedded AI and independent subagents seems almost something that you could build today.
caskstrength
> If you like this book, I recommend Accelerando, Piranesi, Dick's Ubik, and Ted Chiang's collections.
Thanks for the recommendations. I read and liked most of the books in your list, so I'll likely also appreciate the ones I haven't.
EDIT: I would also recommend Watts' Blindsight.
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brookst
Blindsight is such an underrated gem.
Al-Khwarizmi
Glad to see Ubik mentioned. While far from unknown, it typically takes a back seat to other works by Dick, and IMHO it's the absolute best. It is unsettling in a way comparable, although different, to Kafka.
edanm
I'll have to disagree on this one. I'm a big Phillip K. Dick fan, and have read many of his works (though it's been a while), but I found Ubik to be a slog and didn't really enjoy it.
To anyone reading this - I'm not saying don't read it - it's a beloved book! I'm just saying, if you read it and don't enjoy it, keep in mind that you might be like me and enjoy his other stuff more.
riffraff
I'm with you on this, I liked the ideas in Ubik, but I found it really hard to go through it compared to other Dick works, but of course everyone is different.
surprisetalk
Agreed. Speaking of underrated works from cyberpunk authors, you may be interested in William Gibson's non-fiction essay collection Distrust That Particular Flavor. My hot take: I think Gibson's non-fiction is much stronger than his fiction.
EDIT: Ooh, that collection includes Disneyland with the Death Penalty: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disneyland_with_the_Death_Pena...
mandmandam
> My hot take: I think Gibson's non-fiction is much stronger than his fiction.
Wow, that's spicy.
Will def check those out though.
gpvos
I liked the expansion of the ideas. I was bored a couple of times so it could be compressed a bit into maybe a novella half the size of the book, but a short story would have left me wanting.
NoMoreNicksLeft
No one reads Greg Egan for the character building or any of that other literary bullshit.
This is the novel that introduces the idea that a simulation universe need not have another universe simulating it. Hell, it's the only novel that has that idea. There is more insight here than we could extract from a thousand other authors, philosophers, and thinkers. But who cares, the characters were sort of cardboard and he has the whole r/menwritingwomen thing going on.
_yb2s
Neal Stephensons Anathem is also based on these same ideas- specifically the concepts of timeless physics, and the idea that mathematical and physical existence are identical.
NoMoreNicksLeft
Thanks. I'll put that one on my reading list. Haven't read but one of his before.
savingsPossible
read the two, had not connected the dots. Thanks!
zupatol
I justs finished reading the book and the idea that a simulation universe need not have another universe simulating it indeed baffled me. How do you make sense of that? I was disappointed there wasn't a clearer motivation for it.
AgentME
(spoiler warning for others!)
Durham's "dust theory" is basically that every possible universe is simulated an infinite number of times across space and time within our universe as Boltzmann brains (he doesn't call them this but his idea of random bits of dust randomly computing things is equivalent), so actually running a simulation containing mind uploads on a computer ourselves is unnecessary to allow consciousness to exist within the simulation.
Durham describes the theory with a few more steps, like his idea of "launching" which I can't help but think Maria is correct in calling unnecessary. I think the story is trying to communicate that Durham's theory is subtly wrong or incomplete, especially when the surprising event happens at the end. I think the explanation for the surprising event at the end is (heavier spoilers ahead!) that there's a mix of Boltzmann brains running two different versions of Permutation City (one where Permutation City and the A-life universe are artificial simulations with arbitrary complicated physics and starting states exactly as we saw them be designed within the story, and one where the A-life universe is natural with a simple unified underlying physics and starting state and Permutation City is an artificial simulation/construct within it with a complicated starting state) which have been running in parallel and producing equivalent conscious experience, but by the end of the story, the latter version of Permutation City is simpler and therefore simulated in proportionally more Boltzmann brains than the first version. The latter version exists more, so when the conscious experiences of these two versions of Permutation City finally diverge, the story follows the latter version.
(I'm pretty confident in this reading of it. The story makes a regular point in talking about the complexity of the artificial simulations containing mind uploads and how much they're unlike the simple unified physics of our world. The point is brought up in a way as if the author or characters expect it to have significance; the surprising event at the end of the story is this point's significance finally being seen.)
NoMoreNicksLeft
> How do you make sense of that?
Chew on it for awhile. It's worth it. The explanation provided was sparse, but sufficient to justify.
goatlover
By more insight do you mean pure speculation? I could say Liu Cixin has more insight than a thousand other minds with his Dark Forest and dimensionality, but again it's all speculative fiction.
Also, some people actually like well-written characters. I know it sounds strange.
selimthegrim
Why Piranesi? Seems more straight up fantasy.
surprisetalk
To me, the main distinction between fantasy and sci-fi is world-building vs. idea-exploration.
This book feels more like the deep exploration of a cool idea, which is why I'm recommending it in this context :)
brookst
Piranesi is fantasy the way Kafka is fantasy. Which is to say, kinda, if you squint. But mostly it’s allegorical.
rollulus
I loved this book. It’s the sort of book that made me occasionally pause and think about the ideas presented in it. Boltzmann brains still fascinate me. The spot market for CPU power was visionary. When reading it again when I was older I only found the characters a bit weak.
vagab0nd
> The spot market for CPU power was visionary.
Absolutely. Not to mention the use of proof of work, just 2 years after the idea was actually proposed. Very ahead of its time.
NoMoreNicksLeft
> Boltzmann brains still fascinate me.
It's ok. You fascinate them too.
cdogl
Egan is the only great Australian science fiction writer I’m aware of. I principally recommend Diaspora for far future post-human history with a strong focus on physics and maths, and Quarantine which is a sort of heist thriller with a unique quantum physics hook in a relatively near future Northern Australia setting where First Nations people have gained independence and positioned themselves as an Asian financial / biotech hub.
Egan’s prose, characterisation and plotting are often weak, but almost every page has a new creative concept.
adamgordonbell
Big Fan of Egan's short stories. I feel like they are his strongest work and maybe because they can lean more on ideas. Luminous about math grad students discovering some secrets in math is pretty great.
Wang's Carpets which became Diaspora is mind blowing.
Zendegi is an interesting novel by him I never see anyone mention. I enjoyed it and the characters are a bit more developed. It also has a Eliezer Yudkowsky stand in as the big bad guy i seem to recall. Which made me chuckle.
badcppdev
I think of Zendegi quite often when I think about the debates surrounding digital companions, etc. I don't think the book had great commercial success.
edanm
I'm a big fan of Egan, having read a few of his books and a bunch of short stories. Personally, Zendegi was the weakest of his books by quite a bit. (Still good, just... not great.)
prepend
I’ve liked every Egan book I read but also want to mention Distress. I got shipped it accidentally when I ordered Diaspora and the seller told me to keep it.
It’s set in the “near future” so probably 2020 since it was published in 1998 and does a good job, I think, of talking about things that are happening now- third world empowerment, body augmentation, transgenders, precision pharmacy, biohacking.
And some things we don’t have yet- artificial island nations, self-autists, custom engineered plagues.
I like it because it’s one of those books that stuck with me for describing tech that “we should and one day will have” in that Egan described a “pharm” that compounds medication on the fly to precisely medicate us. For example, it will give you stimulants with your vitamix but have to counter it the next day based on how your body performs. I can’t wait for that and hate having to wait days to adjust meds. I feel similarly about Stephenson’s metaverse description and young lady’s illustrated primer, and nanodrones, and cryptocurrency. And Doctorow’s “comm” device that he described a few years before the iPhone.
cdogl
Distress also has a short passage explaining the collapse of the collapse of CBDs and inflation of the suburban property market and cost of living due to remote work, set in an area of suburban Sydney that’s now not far off Egan’s predictions. Few hard science fiction authors of recent decades can pull that off, as the 21st century has shown that our 20th century science fiction tropes are either already here (computing and networking revolution, hydrogen bombs, DNA sequencing) or will likely not materialise for centuries (space colonisation, mind uploading). Egan has a talent for speculating about little details of life that illustrate a very different world.
anileated
Egan’s Diaspora is a strong book that I’d definitely recommend to hardcore sci-fi lovers.
andyjohnson0
> Egan’s prose, characterisation and plotting are often weak, but almost every page has a new creative concept.
I agree with all of that. I was thinking recently about how Egan compares to Neal Stephenson after some discussion of his (NS) fiction here a few days ago [1]. They both (imo) are weak at characterisation etc. - but to me Egan's work is among some of the best sf I've ever read [1], wheras I find reading Stephenson an ordeal. I think that's down to the depth of the ideas that Egan explores, but I'd be interested in what others think of how he compares to other authors.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39287616
[2] Permutation City. Diaspora, short works in collections like Luninous, etc.
ahartmetz
IMO, Egan's prose and plotting are not notably bad. Characters are probably his weakest point. Plus, Egan knows when to stop rambling, or rather, he doesn't ramble. As opposed to the other guy.
hmahncke
Greg Egan as great! Two other Australians you might try are:
Terra Nullius by Claire G. Coleman, about what it's like to be colonized.
Souls in the Great Machine by Sean McMullen, about what it's like to be part of a computer.
cstross
Also worth noting is the work of the late George Turner (d. 1997), notably The Sea and Summer and Beloved Son.
googamooga
Thank you so much for recommending both authors! I'm a huge fan of Egan and would really appreciate to explore the Australian sci-fi scene more.
mycologos
Diaspora is my favorite Egan book. Permutation City seems to get talked about more, but the dust theory stuff just felt implausible, and it has one of the worst sex scenes I've ever read. Maybe it's because Diaspora is less concerned with anything as abstract as consciousness and more interested in how different forms of life play out, which I find fun when it's done well.
75th
The sex in that sex scene is supposed to be cringingly bad. Supposed to be uncomfortable to read. Did you think it was poorly done, or was it just too uncomfortable-on-purpose?
admissionsguy
> Egan’s prose, characterisation and plotting are often weak
I sort of agree, but personally I like the rawness of it. For a similarly unrefined yet intellectually stimulating writing, check out Gregory Benford who used to be a professor of physics.
BLKNSLVR
Going back a while, but I really enjoyed The Resurrected Man by Sean Williams.
I have a few other books of his, some seem sci-fi, some seem fantasy, but haven't read them yet.
Seems he's not been idle: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_Williams_(author)
gojomo
If they ever want to shoot an 'Even Blacker Mirror' TV anthology, they should adapt Egan's short stories. 'Axiomatic', especially.
Two stories in that collection from before the modern social internet (1992), with non-internet somewhat fantastic premises, nonetheless often come to mind when observing modern online self-presentational & affiliational dynamics:
• 'The Hundred Light-Year Diary' - a method of receiving tiny (tweet-like!) messages from the future – eventually rationed out to all people! – examines questions of free-will & (self-)deception, at many levels
• 'Unstable Orbits in the Space of Lies' - how much of what you believe/aver is imposed by your neighborhood?
jharohit
Greg Egan is an acquired taste of hard SF. I would highly recommend someone who wants to get in to start here - it is short stories and some of his very best. Also one of my best cover of sci fi books
https://www.amazon.com/Best-Greg-Egan-Stories-Science/dp/194...
adamgordonbell
Agreed. He's strongest I'm his short stories. I have two collections of them.
gmuslera
If you like this one Diaspora seem to have extrapolated some of this ideas and went several step further (and then added much more), and Zendegi that is a lot more modest in extrapolation and tries to be more realistic (and emotional).
He have also a lot of mindblowing short stories. The collection I've read by him was Axiomatic, that had many great ones.
CapmCrackaWaka
Permutation city is one of those books that "blew my mind". If you read sci-fi recreationaly, you know what I'm talking about. When the author introduces a novel concept which makes you think "holy crap, _what if_???" and then uses that concept to create a compelling story. It's on the top shelf in my library, along with my other favorite books.
pranay01
Just finished reading Exhalation by Ted Chiang, and can't recommend it enough. It's a collection of short stories - so easy entry point for beginners as well.
SamBam
I love Ted Chiang, and enjoyed Exhalation, but personally I would recommend Stories of Your Life and Others as the first book of short stories. I found it had a higher percentage of home runs.
x86x87
To me anything I've read from Ted Chiang is a home run and I've basically read all his work.
yboris
My all-time-favorite collection of short stories is The Wandering Earth by Cixin Liu. Highly recommend, whether or not you liked The Three Body Problem (trilogy)
jeremiahbuckley
You might like Invisible Planets, Chinese sci-fi short stories compilation. I’ve read a few of them; Folding Beijing is pretty great.
bhaney
Permutation City was my introduction to Egan many years ago, and since then I've read nearly everything he's written (Scale is still somewhere on my unfortunately neglected reading list, but I'll get to it eventually).
The same captivating exploration of interesting ideas is omnipresent throughout his work, and that's always been why I keep coming back. I think it's important to go into his stories with an open mind towards what literature is allowed to be - namely that it can focus on things other than narrative or characterization without being a detriment to itself. A steak does not need to be as sweet as a cake in order to satisfy a diner, after all. And that's not to say that he avoids interesting narration or character development entirely, but there are definitely stories of his where he's clearly focusing on other aspects, and the choice to do that feels intentional and appropriate to me.
edanm
Which Egan is your favorite?
bhaney
It's been years since the last one I read, so it's a bit hard to recall. But the stories that have really stuck in my mind are the results of Egan tweaking some physical law, constructing a universe that might reasonably arise under those physical conditions, and then writing a plausible adventure within that universe.
Dichronauts (2 spacial and 2 time-like dimensions instead of our 3 and 1) and the Orthogonal trilogy (Riemannian spacetime instead of our "Lorentzian") come to mind. I just really like the care he puts into constructing these universes, from how planets form (the worlds in Dichronauts are infinite hyperboloids instead of spheres), to how scientific discovery progresses (as a result of the physics in Orthogonal, light of different frequencies travel at different speeds and visually separate as a common matter of course, which leads to a much earlier understanding of relativity by a fairly primitive civilization). It feels like he's building universes from first principles and taking care to consider every little consequence and detail, which leads to a lot of "Ohhhhh" moments when you encounter something counter-intuitive but then realize it directly follows as a consequence of the initial physics tweak.
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Fun to see this on HN today; I just finished it last night, on a recommendation from a friend. It was great, and left me full of unfinished thoughts -- just what you want from a good SF yarn.
For folks who enjoyed the ideas in it I can heartily recommend qntm's short story Lena (https://qntm.org/lena), which explores some of the same ideas but with a hefty dollop of (implied, but all the more intense for it) psychological horror.