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dark-star
I have used BlackBerry phones extensively when they were all the rage, and I was more productive on their keyboards than I ever was on any smartphone keyboard, Android or iOS, that came after.
windexh8er
I would agree. I make more mistakes on virtual keyboards for sure. I really enjoyed the original Motorola Droid [0] with slide out keyboard. Not only was the slider mechanism and keyboard excellent, but it didn't impact the portability of the phone at all.
If we could get an updated phone in that exact form factor with vanilla Android support it would be very popular. Physical keyboard, removable battery, mSD card slot and headphone jack. All the things consumers "don't want" anymore. /s
jeroenhd
Phones with QWERTY keyboards are still made, but unfortunately they're produced in such limited quantity that they're not built with high-end SoCs.
The F(x)tec Pro¹ and the Unihertz Titan just don't take off enough to warrant big investments. There's a group of Android users who prefer physical keyboards (that I too belong to as well), but it's small.
Even when physical keyboard died, people sold QWERTY keyboard covers and cases for some smartphones (I think the S6 Edge was the last one with an official keyboard?) but even those have died out because of lack of interest.
In theory, all you need to add a sliding keyboard to a modern Android phone is a corner USB-C connector and a sufficiently sized case. Someone skilled with 3D printing and circuit board design may just be able to build one for their phones if they can get their hands on the keyboards themselves...
0xEF
I definitely did not share your experience. Still don't with modern touch screen keyboards, which I am currently forced to use. I'd love to chalk it up to having large hands, but that is not the case, as my hands are not big by any standards. I've never felt it was natural to type with one or two thumbs, but we tend to trick ourselves into thinking this is fine because, lets be honest, what's the alternative? We can't all whip out a folding keyboard every time we want to send a text on our mobile.
That said, when it comes to making a lilliputian computer/microcomputer, there are physical limitations to design if we want to keep typing with our 8 fingers as the keyboard gods intended, so I understand the resurgence of the Blackberry-esque keyboard for pocket devices. I just can't call it a comfortable way to compute.
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brk
Same, FWIW. Just the other day I was thinking how it would be great if we could get back to real keyboards, now that smartphones have gotten so big, we have options for folding screens, etc. The pure touchscreen format made sense in the days of iPhone 1, but I'm not sure it still does today.
bArray
> At the risk of being shouted down, this is another one of those products that looks great on impulse buy, but when you try to use that tiny keyboard and screen to do any real work with it, the chore of use becomes apparent.
I purchased one on impulse after this HN post, and some notes so far:
* Keyboard is a hell of a lot smaller than expected. I have small fingers and even this is a bit of a challenge for me. I very much doubt anybody will be coding on this thing. I am thinking mostly to use it as a way of making brief notes and reading RSS feeds.
* The screen is fine, it's something you can live with.
* I installed tulipcc on it (micropython), definitely the right choice to getting started on it quickly.
* I tried to print a case [2] but my printer is not good enough, I think I will send them off to China to be printed on an SLA printer.
a-saleh
Yeah, I think this is for you iff you actually want a weird little messenger. Play around with LORA or some mesh network thing, but it will never be a "look, oh I have a homebrew PDA that I actually use"
em500
I agree, having owned (among others) a Psion 5mx and a Nokia N900 in the past. You could write full docs, compile C programs or write papers in LaTeX on a pocket device, in theory. In practice of course, I never did when the novelty wore off after a few tries.
evanjrowley
HAMs are using it as a MeshCom terminal: https://icssw.org/en/meshcom/
Halfway through this video is an example, contrast it with the iOS app shown before: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWtqm7lbYoo
This is a deeper dive into specifically the T-Deck and Meshtastic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1hvsYEX7WE
hackcasual
Lilygo were the ones to make the device the original meshtastic was built on (T-Beam)
weinzierl
I have their T-Echo and several T-Beam and T-Display-S3. I'm pretty happy with them so far, but have to admit that none of my projects is finished and so far I just have been playing around.
I'm based in Germany and delivery from their German warehouse was pretty fast, some parts came from China but didn't take much longer.
They don't ship batteries though so you have to get them elsewhere. This was a bit of a challenge for me because I had no prior experience with industrial type batteries and the market is confusing. I was also afraid of fakes that, in the worst case, explode in my face or burn my place down. I finally ordered some from the Netherlands which have not exploded so far.
Anyways, I learned a ton for next to no money, so I can definitely recommend the devices mentioned above for educational purposes.
andrewstuart
>> have to admit that none of my projects is finished and so far I just have been playing around
No-one ever uses the microcontrollers they buy and they certainly don’t finish projects - that would be breaking the laws of nature.
No, we buy these devices because we like the idea of making a project with them and enjoy the satisfaction that hitting the “buy” button gives.
When the item is delivered (only a 50/50 chance if you bought it from Aliexpress), put it safely in a drawer and think happily about how your project would work if you ever did it. Which you won’t. You will feel an ongoing warm glow from your accumulated collection of microcontrollers and oddball electronics that you’ve bought and you’ll marvel at how little it cost to buy so much computing power that you’ll never use.
You watch makers on YouTube to vicariously see projects finished. Then you get inspired and buy. Then you put it in a drawer. Then you go back to watching makers on YouTube. It’s the cycle of maker life.
mcphage
Depressing but completely accurate. As Warren Zevon said, "We love to buy books because we believe we're buying the time to read them."
_joel
This is the content I come here for.
brk
This just saved many people years of therapy and self-doubt.
HeyLaughingBoy
> only a 50/50 chance if you bought it from Aliexpress
I've been buying electronic modules from AliExpress for years and have never not received my order.
briansm
Oof. Harsh but fair.
weinzierl
Haha, I call it Gadget Tsundoku but I am sure there is separate word for it in Japanese.
disqard
This entire thread was very educational -- I learned a lot about myself :)
lagrange77
That's exactly how it works.
nicpottier
Lilygo makes a ton of really fun ESP32 dev boards. I've used various ones in projects and it is pretty crazy what you can get for not much money. They are constantly churning out new, weird form factors: https://www.lilygo.cc/collections/new
ritonlajoie
I'm building a macro keyboard (4 keys) and was looking for keypads with a display for ages. It seems they are doing it !
stavros
This might be relevant to your interests:
meta-level
I consider this post a birthday present and didn't even try to resist the buy-instantly-reflex..
BUT. What I'm still missing is an audio jack. I've been searching for a long time now for a device of this mobile friendly form factor (i.e. battery support), with a couple of buttons and knobs, a small display and audio in/out.
Like a TE Pocket Operator, but fully programmable (using typical C++/Rust/Micropython programming environments).
I'd really love to deep dive into rapid prototyping some audio generator or effect processor I can take with me, but don't want to design and build a device for this first.
Maybe you guys have seen something like this before and can give me a hint?
20after4
The esp32 has i2s[1] and there are a variety of i2s DAC chips for very reasonable prices. Amazon has what looks like a reasonable low-cost choice, the PCM5102 breakout board for $12 [2]
1. https://docs.espressif.com/projects/esp-idf/en/latest/esp32/... 2. https://www.amazon.com/HiLetgo-Lossless-Digital-Converter-Ra...
HeyLaughingBoy
The ESP32 also has two onboard 8-bit DACs. But I agree, a 16-bit I2S DAC is a better choice for high quality audio. I built a streaming audio receiver for a custom car stereo with them and it sounds amazing.
unwind
Or $3 (on sale) from AliExpress [1].
[1]: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006104038963.html?spm=a2...
catherd
https://wiphone.io/ is Arduino compatible and comes with an audio jack and microphone. It's also completely enclosed, knows how to charge it's own battery, etc. Phone form factor, ESP32 processor.
The back of the phone can be replaced with a custom PCB or breadboard holding your custom hardware. Pogo pins make a connection to the motherboard. The idea is you could carry whatever you end up making around in your pocket just like a phone once you're done, assuming you only put components on the inside of the back cover.
Disclosure: I designed and manufacture it.
grumbel
There are numerous $50-100 Rockchip-based GameBoy-like emulation handhelds on the market, such as the R36S. The R36S runs normal Linux (ArkOS/Ubuntu), has an audio jack along with numerous buttons. It's missing a touchscreen and WiFi, but has an USB port to plug in a keyboard or WiFi adapter (USB port is somewhat current limited, so it won't work with all).
andrewstuart
Yeah it should have audio.
Next best is using Bluetooth, depending on what you’re trying to build.
blkhawk
Just add one yourself? I mean it even has a speaker cable. That said an esp32 isn't that good for audio just from a practical standpoint.
mkl
> That said an esp32 isn't that good for audio just from a practical standpoint.
What are the problems with it for audio? The microphones and speaker on this and the T-Embed [1] suggest it's partly intended for that.
reassembled
My recollection is that by default the ESP32 DAC isn't very high bit depth and so the sound quality is limited. It is recommended to interface it with an external DAC chip via I2S in order to achieve higher than 8bits per sample (maybe 12bit? Someone please correct me).
Kototama
I wonder how many people buy such products once it's displayed on the frontpage of HN.
averageRoyalty
I would wager both more and less than you think.
The total amount of readers is probably higher than you think, 80% are lurkers.
The total amount of purchasers ass a percentage is probably lower than average, due to cynacism and skeptacism.
schwartzworld
Take a look at the Woovebox. A great example of what a lone dev can do with esp32
hellotomyrars
I got way in to Meshtastic when I was doing some group backwoods camping in national parks. Satellite was really the only other option at the time for long range, highly reliable communication and is so expensive! I got some t-beams and was super impressed by how well they worked. The interface at the time was very clunky and the software was in its infancy. In practice the devices were only usable in the context of showing their GPS location/distance from each other because the iOS support was specifically non-existent. That said I wanted them just to make sure if someone was gone for a long time, you’d know if they were okay by proxy of them moving and be able to find them if needed. It worked for that as a bare device.
The software has come a long way and I’ve been really impressed even though I haven’t been in a situation to take advantage of it again. I’ve got one of these on order though because it just tickles me.
livueta
I've also used Meshtastic a bunch for backcountry stuff, and coming from vhf/uhf radios, I gotta say I fucking love nonsynchronous comms in that setting.
Being able to set my phone down and go filter water or whatever, then come back to a text message that the other group made the pass and will be there in an hour (or, like you said, just their moving arrow), is so much nicer in practice than having to monitor an analog voice channel. That wasn't really a benefit I was expecting when getting into it, but it's one of my favorite aspects in actual usage.
I will gladly put up with some level of jank (2/11 t-beams have unressurectably died mysteriously over time) for that kind of QoL improvement. (That said, I still carry a backup ht)
weinzierl
The Meshtastic iOS app is fantastic. Many commercial apps could take a leaf out of their book.
(I cannot speak for Android because I never tried it.)
anigbrowl
Along the same lines, has anyone here tried their T-watch product?
jmiskovic
I have the T-Watch 2020 collecting dust on the shelf.
Biggest downside is the battery which can't last a single day (and has to be charged through USB micro port with a flimsy plastic cap). The "speaker" and microphone are both very low quality. Other than that the hardware works as advertised. It's a complete ESP32 device in a very small form factor that could be repurposed as home automation interface.
Software support is quite bad. The arduino examples are mostly useful to confirm the HW is working. The provided OS with UI and gestures is not robust or pretty. It's best to drop to the toolchain that espressif provides, and there are some repositories that make this easy. Last I saw, there's no good foundation to start writing "apps" on top off, you have to treat it as bare metal embedded system and start from scratch. This is where I shelved it, after about two weeks of board bring-up with MicroPython and C++.
buzzert
Is that battery life based on screen-on time, or standby time? Wondering if that can be optimized in any way.
stavros
I had one of those (maybe not the S3) and it stayed in a drawer because I realized I don't have the time, inclination, or skills to basically write an entire OS for it.
reerdna
You can turn this into a pocket "lisp machine" by following the instructions on http://www.ulisp.com/show?4JAO - although I don't think this can make use of the LoRa interface (yet).
The hardware is cool, but its just a PCB and the edges of the display are vulnerable. I would recommend 3D printing a case to protect it, especially if you are planning to bring it around with you. There are .stp files for one in the official github repo.
alexisread
You can also do Forth, which does support lora
https://arduino-forth.com/article/FORTH_FlashForth_LoRa_TheL...
It's relatively straightforward to build this out with an SPI screen using FabGL, not sure about the keyboard, though FabGL supports ps2.
nfriedly
The M5Stack Cardputer is another interesting device along these lines: https://shop.m5stack.com/products/m5stack-cardputer-kit-w-m5...
(I don't have one of these, but I do have one of their other devices that seemed pretty nifty. Haven't done much with it yet, though.)
shermozle
M5 kit isn't very reliable and their documentation site is down more often than it's up. Lilygo are good though.
HeyLaughingBoy
I have to take issue with that. I shipped a bunch of devices based on M5Stack Tough for automotive use (in a truck) and feedback is that everything works great.
bArray
Gah, I just ordered one on impulse [1]. I've wanted to build out a WiFi PDA for quite some time now and I like this hardware.
I'm quite liking the idea of running tulip MicroPython [2] on it, or going back to pure MicroPython [3] and writing some drivers. Apparently something like ampy can be used to upload/download Python files [4].
Threads could be quite exciting for running multiple programs at once [5], although I have no idea what it means for two programs to fight over GPIO! It does seem as though MicroPython can only utilise a single core [6].
[1] https://www.lilygo.cc/products/t-deck?variant=43087936487605
[2] https://github.com/bwhitman/tulipcc/tree/main/tulip/tdeck
[3] https://docs.micropython.org/en/latest/esp32/tutorial/intro....
[4] https://www.digikey.co.uk/en/maker/projects/micropython-basi...
[5] https://docs.micropython.org/en/latest/library/_thread.html
chrisjj
It’s a great choice as a self-contained Lisp computer; see:
KennyBlanken
The ESp32 is many things - a suitable mobile battery powered uC is not one of them.
It has insane peak power draw from its radios, much more so than any other wifi uC, and it's horribly energy-inefficient when not sleeping.
numpad0
Can't beat 240MHz dual thread performance and certified wireless at $5 all-inclusive. There are plenty more proper solutions but none within the ballpark - at least until Espressif moves to investment recovery phase.
Rebelgecko
The Lilygo/TYGO ESP-32 boards I've used also have horrible battery life while deep sleeping (which is a bummer because they put out some cool boards that seem ALMOST perfect for battery use cases)
perbu
The chip itself is fine.
If you have the wrong board it will be bad. You need to pay attention to the power supply on the board.
I've got a weather display (epaper, refreshes every hour) that I need to charge every 18 months or so. If you find the right board they're pretty much perfect.
nmaggioni
I second that, I have an EzSBC ESP32 board [1] that wakes up twice a day to fetch data through WiFi and three standard mini 1.5V, non rechargeable batteries are still going strong after almost one year. The power supply stage is truly the most important bit when it comes to deep sleep power consumption.
[1]: https://www.ezsbc.com/product/esp32-breakout-and-development...
Rebelgecko
Do you have a link handy? I had trouble with an e-ink board from them that drew tens of milliamps when it was asleep (on a well optimized ESP-32 it should be more like dozens of microamps)
kjs3
I've got a weather display
That seems very interesting. Got a link?
eql5
This is one of the reasons I only use RAK WisBlock devices, which use the very low energy nRF52 chips, and are also truly industrial strength quality, and more flexible regarding many types of sensors etc. (and also have a nice small solar panel enclosure, if it fits your use case).
SillyUsername
If I remember correctly there have also been a few bugs in M5Stack ESP32 APIs because of deep sleep not working, I'm thinking there's also a few underlying Esspressif API bugs.
scottjg
out of curiosity, which wifi microcontrollers are better for battery life?
ComputerGuru
ESP8266 as a daughterboard on a real microcontroller like an STM32. Or a Nordic device like the nrf7002, but I haven’t used that personally.
HeyLaughingBoy
Nordic Semiconductor nRF devices barely sip power. We did lots of wearable devices with BLE interface at my last job and Nordic was our go-to.
Sorry, I just realized you said wi-fi, not BLE.
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At the risk of being shouted down, this is another one of those products that looks great on impulse buy, but when you try to use that tiny keyboard and screen to do any real work with it, the chore of use becomes apparent. I developed my own version using a Featherwing Keyboard awhile back. As much as our brains want to compare it to the old Blackberry we once had, trying to write a quick sketch is so much different than sending the occasional sms with that keyboard. It was a clunky, cramped experience to say the least.