Amazon allegedly resells damaged books

Thanks for chiming in! If you don't mind, I'm trying to understand the exact accounting implications of this for you.

In the context of self-publishing, what does it mean to order "author's copies"? Are they: A) offered for free, like they would be as part of a traditional publishing contract? B) Sold to you "at cost" of printing and shipping without any markup? C) Sold above cost but with a discount greater than or equal to size of the royalty? D) Sold above cost but with a discount smaller than the size of the royalty? E) Sold at full retail price but without any royalty?

I very much doubt A because then Amazon would basically be operating what amounts to a free vanity press. But maybe they'd throw in a couple as a perk.

I also doubt B because then they would be operating a revenue-neutral vanity press, but maybe it would still be worth it to them if they counted on gettong enough non-author sales to make enough margin to fund the operation.

I also doubt D or E, because if so, then why would anybody order "author's copies" of their book?. Just get your friend to order them for you and reimburse them and you'll come out ahead.

I would guess the answer is C. But in that case, it seems to me that you are getting implicit royalty on those "author's copies", but those royalties are baked into the discounted price rather than being distributed to you later. (I suppose this might also have advantageous tax implications for you on those implicit royalties, compared to the alternative where you just order normal copies and get your royalties later.) Am I wrong about this?

I assume Amazon thought the author was too picky, so they shipped him another 14 books from their inventory and put the 14 he returned into inventory.

I frequently get books that have the errors this author described. It's normal in cheap books. I've even seen those errors in guilt-edged, leather-bound collectible books.

I've stopped buying books from Amazon as _every_single_one_ comes with the corners dinged, the covers scratched, and often times bent in half one way or the other.

If I happen to want a self-published-printed-by-amazon book (ie. not available at any other store), I'll really think twice about it, as the quality is probably total crap. The last one I got had screenshots that were all unreadable (and the main content was mostly in the screenshots, without explaining text otherwise), and looked like it was printed at about 15 dpi.

OOTH, I've never had problems with BN or Bookshop.

Their packing has gotten comically bad, particularly for sensitively items like books and such. I've greatly reduced my Amazon buying over the years due to issues with damaged items, and lately, Amazon is getting more aggressive about discouraging returns. But I'm not going to pay $30+ for a new hardcover that comes damaged and covered with dirt and grime.

100% agree. Just about every book I've bought from amazon has arrived severely damaged due to crap packaging. I wanted to buy a really nice limited release folio recently, but for some reason the printer only sold it through Amazon. Why would you sell your $200 art book through a company that guarantees 90% of them will be trashed? I emailed the printer, they confirmed the books were only available through amazon, I bought one, and returned it because it looked like it had been thrown down a flight of stairs.

Aren't they also widely known to co-mingle with cheap counterfeit books as well?

Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and Borders many years ago did use packaging that completely protected books from damage. I guess they found there are enough people who really don't care, so that the sellers don't have to care either.

I've stopped buying from Amazon, period.

I received a book that had been written all over, full of notes and scribbles... it was sold as "new".

I complained, and they sent another.

That too was scribbled all over, notes on every page.

The book wasn't that expensive, I was a bit annoyed, but it's a rounding error to me, so I just ordered another thinking no way would this happen again, and because I did need it quicker than I cared to go through the service desk again.

The third was also marked on every page.

I complained, and they gave a refund for the 2nd one but not the 3rd... all of them were ruined though, none of them could be gifted (which was my intent), and ultimately I just sent it to landfill / recycling / incineration.

I keep learning, if I actually care about what I receive I avoid using Amazon. They're fine for some things, but the list of things they're fine for seems to be ever decreasing.

All of this was UK btw, YMMV elsewhere and with different categories of goods, etc.

Also, when I got the refund, which took about 20 minutes of my time, the tone was weird "congratulations, we're able to offer you a refund today"... this wasn't a prize, it was crappy goods and you weren't even fully setting me good, I dread to think of the number of refunds for obviously damaged goods are not honoured such that this was worthy of congrats.

It's implied that he gets paid 0 times for either the return or the resold book. There's more discussion on Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/joabaldwin.com/post/3khrp64a5pw22

>Why would a return that is then resold result in a double royalty payment?

This was not marketed as a resold return to the customer, they were told they were buying a new book.

It obviously results in a loss of royalties - the customer goes to buy a new book, no new book is printed. Rather, Amazon sends a returned copy, and the author doesn't get the royalty that's paid when a new book is printed.

Feel free to bring out some pitchforks! Here's more info about the damage.

https://twitter.com/joabaldwin/status/1741484863985770912

I'm calling it "damage" just for simplicity's sake on the note, although some were properly damaged (bent covers, weird creases, etc, although not during shipping since they were surprisingly well packed in this case), while some were miscut/misprinted.

Regarding royalties, it's better explained on the reply I posted to the main thread. But I'm still unsure about how that might resolve, but I have the specific order number and will try to get an answer. I have not had time to deal with KDP support yet (will as soon as I get home next week).

looks like author responded https://twitter.com/joabaldwin/status/1741202134845247606

"That’s one page out of 600+, I returned 14 books: one was cut to the wrong size (actually cutting the text, like an inch smaller), others had totally bent covers and pages, others were printed beyond the bleed area (offset too far from the max allowed), or printed at an angle."

to me it seems a bit dramatic, if a customer felt that was an issue they'd just get a refund from amazon

It's not even that big an if. Every vendor of every product receives returns. And every vendor of every product has some kind of process for deciding what to do with them. A few product areas have specific regulation, but in general if you get an unused return that is still in new condition you're going to resell it. It's no different for Amazon than your corner bookstore, who does exactly the same thing.

Basically this author did a bulk order of his own book from Amazon[1], found something wrong, deliberately returned them and then laid a deliberate trap just to generate exactly this buzz.

[1] Pretty weird to begin with. Marketing copies of your own work are normally part of your contract with the publisher. Why is he getting them retail?

It's blatantly illegal under federal law to sell used items as new, full stop, end of story. But Bezos gets invites to the white house pretty regularly so it seems federal regulators get the message that enforcement against Amazon is a no-go.

Frys did this a lot during their last 5 years of existence.

That statement jumped out at me too, but I'm not sure what to think about it. I also hate to say anything that might seem sympathetic to Amazon, a company I consider somewhat unethical.

These two statements below should be uncontroversial:

1. If Amazon prints a defective book and rejects it in QC then Amazon should get no revenue nor should the author. It should be recycled. Another copy should be printed and shipped and the revenue distributed as normal.

2. If Amazon prints a defective book and it is shipped returned due to defect then amazon should get no revenue nor should the author. It should be recycled. A new book should be printed and sent to the customer (assuming they didn't ask for a refund) and no payment to author / no extra revenue recognition to Amazon.

But then:

3. It's better that Amazon resells products that are returned in perfectly good condition rather than trashing them (https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/28/amazon-returns-what-really-h... https://www.howtogeek.com/what-happens-to-amazon-returns/ and a ton of other easy to find links)

4. Amazon should not resell products returned that are defective.

The problem is: how should it know? They can't take the word of the customer returning the product. Amazon does resell high value returned items like TVs and monitors after checking them. But the cost of looking for the defect in the book is quite high -- I'd be surprised if it gets more than a casual glance/flip through.

I'm not sure what they should be doing in this case, but I do think the comment "This means I don’t get paid at all, because they only pay me when a book is printed" is a side distraction.

It may be more common now, but I've had this problem with them before in the past. In one notable case I bought a new game console from Amazon.com and received a box that was so obviously used (seals broken, shrinkwrap missing, etc) that I didn't even bother opening it, I just returned it. Despite the price of the item they raised no objections, so they're probably used to this happening and just assume that most customers won't notice.

I purchased four used, like new smart plugs from Amazon Warehouse Deals a few days ago. Two were the wrong model in the right box and were very clearly used. One even had a scorch mark on it. I’ve had similar experiences with other Amazon purchases in the last few years.

I work in ecommerce, sometimes for a client where I get to work closely with the customer service people. I am familiar with what you get in returns from customers across a few different brands/verticals.

What amazes me is how good the returns can be. At one place, anything returned by the customer was as good as new. Out of a hundred returns, ninety nine of them were as good as what we sent out from the warehouse, absolutely mint. The correct product was in the box, pretty much guaranteed. We had a local stock room that was just from the returns and could get product for people from this stock of returned items.

Sometimes there could be a problem but we would catch this by just a quick check of the box.

There was a team of a dozen of us in the customer service. Had the business been bigger then I am sure that the one percent of actually defective stuff would get resold for people to get very vocal about it on social media.

Then other people would grumble too, to reminisce about the time their order was 'thrown over the hedge' by the delivery company driver.

Before you know it, the whole thing could snowball out of control. Also, at a larger scale, we would attract 'American' customers that don't respect the product in quite the same way as in the rest of the world where consumer culture and education is different.

I am no fan of Amazon but I do respect the efforts of the people they have doing the work there. For the consumer that has never worked a day in retail, it is not all about you!

Furthermore, we see what we expect to see. Getting back to working in retail, I was never shouted at or abused by customers. I set off in the morning looking forward to a fast paced day with lots of happy customers. That is what I expected and that is what I got.

I have met others that worked in retail to be perpetually abused. They expected a day of abuse and they got it.

I think the same applies with Amazon orders. If you expect to be delighted with your orders then you will be amazed at how excessively well packaged everything is and how miraculous the timely delivery is.

However, if you expect everything to be dinged, counterfeit and a repackaged return, then this is what you will get.

This exact thing happened to me and for weeks it would spontaneously cross my mind. I thought one of my kids did it yet I couldn't guess why, until one day it hit me: they were on vacation with their aunt when I received the books and found the toilet paper, and the book was slightly damaged when I got it. Then it dawned on me that someone had read this book before, likely while on their toilet.

For that and a few other reasons, I don't get books from Amazon anymore.

> The way this is said makes it seem like they're expecting to be paid twice for two orders, one returned.

Are you referring to the Dec 30 tweet text, the Dec 28 tweet text, or the paper note in the Dec 28 tweet's photo?

Based on the author's comment, I'm guessing these are print-on-demand books that were damaged during or right after the printing process, so if you are ordering non print-on-demand books your experience might not be as relevant

These appear to be books printed by Amazon directly, so not all book sales would be affected.

I just ordered books from Amazon for the first time and one of the new books had a tear.

Yes, the title's not really capturing that the complaint is about royalties.

Except for clothing, which apparently is fired directly into the landfill. Both cases are not cool.

>Amazon cannot take the customer’s word on return condition.

Why not? Doing so prevents this exact scenario. I'm curious if you think this is appropriate in other circumstances too: a customer at the grocery store returns a bag of candy. Do you want the cashier to check it and decide to put it back on the shelf for you to buy?

>This is good enough since someone buying the used copy can also return it if they disagree.

But not good enough for the author, who loses a royalty payment.