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frabcus
sspiff
Have you tried the camera? How did you find it?
I honestly don't care much about processor speed, if it can run a browser, messaging and banking apps I'm fine. But I need to be able to take family pictures which are good enough quality for occasional full page prints.
I've always been disappointed with these kind of niche devices in the past, where the cameras were barely of the level of 2 year old sub-$200 phones, especially in capture speed and low light performance. You can't ask kids to reenact something in better lighting if you missed it the first time.
Contortion
Wired has a good review of the Fairphone 5 including camera performance here: https://www.wired.com/review/fairphone-5/
maqnius
My gf has a fairphone 5 and I guess you will be disappointed. The pictures are really not stunning. She had a huawei p20 pro (from 2018) and it definitely took better pictures.
dakial1
But is it the hardware though? All the new flagship phones are using software/AI to enhance the photos well above the hardware raw, so I imagine that you might be able to fix this with a better camera app.
tuhriel
I'm running the FP5 at the moment and compared to my OnePlus 7T the camera quality is not on par, especially the whitebalance has some issues
turbo_fart
How does it feel performance wise to the 7T?
Contortion
Happy to read how much better it is than the Fairphone 2. I had one when they first came out but I got rid of it after 1.5 years and bought a Pixel 2 (which I am still using currently and looking to replace with a new Fairphone ironically) because it was so slow, oversized and seemingly cheaply made.
mlinksva
I was curious what the DRC map on https://valkyrie.cdn.ifixit.com/media/2023/12/06065751/disas... (included in the post) could signify.
Search found (view HTML or click "More about our materials") on https://shop.fairphone.com/fairphone-5
> In addition, we account for 100% of the cobalt used in the battery by buying cobalt credits, which support the improvement of working conditions for artisanal cobalt miners in the DRC.
Presumably that's what the map signifies. Good to know/in case anyone else was curious.
Related discussion 10 years ago, only one I could find on HN https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5813730
Added: https://www.faircobaltalliance.org/supply-chain-wide-collabo... and presumably what the improvement mention above is about https://www.faircobaltalliance.org/approach/professionalizin... ?
wryanzimmerman
Sorry, wrong comment
pachico
I never broke a phone, not even scratched the screen but I feel force to buy a new one every 3 years because they become obsolete (I guess apps require more and more memory to the point I cannot have two open at the same time, which kills my ability to pay online).
I bought a Framework laptop for the same reason and I successfully managed to upgrade it, not repair it!
Is there a phone that allows me to upgrade over time and not only fix it?
lucb1e
> I feel force to buy a new one every 3 years because they become obsolete
Nowadays that's plainly not true anymore because chips hardly get faster year-to-year, but also my 2012 phone lasted 5 years before software support started to get mediocre for Android 4.4 (the hardware was still fast enough and the battery you could still replace in 20 seconds). I've only ever bought new phones for software support reasons (scheduled obsolescence) or because the GPS chip broke after they stopped supporting rooting and so I couldn't get it repaired (out of warranty) without forfeiting that.
What phones do you buy that you feel they're unusably slow after only 3 years?!
Night_Thastus
Part of why people think they need to still swap phones is because of either battery degradation, or software bloat.
Generally, a battery swap and a factory wipe would bring most people's phones back to an acceptable performance.
q0uaur
my asus zenfone 6 was a really great phone, but all updates stopped after just 2 years. It still has plenty of power, but due to not getting security updates since 2021 i feel i have to upgrade. getting the fairphone soon.
it's really crazy how wasteful we're being with electronics in general. my old work laptop became unusable with windows 10, just extremely sluggish for even simple tasks. putting linux on it, its working great again (in fact writing this comment on it right now.) I wish we could put more focus on performance in the more mainstream products, but at least there's FOSS for people like me. can't wait until i can put an alpine linux on my phone someday.
maga_2020
>it's really crazy how wasteful we're being with electronics in general.
Indeed. from non-replaceable batteries, to weak headphone and charging port connections, to breaking cables, to mobile phone OSes. Most of consumer-oriented hardware manufacture seems to rely on obsolescent-by-design to get consumers to spend on the same type of device, in short cycles.
Probably similar to the big pharma that may appreciate the economic benefits of a chronic diseases.
neurostimulant
While chips probably won't get significantly faster, apps memory requirements are still steadily increasing to the point of current flagships are starting to have 24GB or RAM.
rglullis
This is the one thing that is makes me feel a bit scammed about the Fairphone. When I bought the Fairphone 3 plus, they gave the impression they were going to stick with form factor and make the modules upgradeable. Those hopes were shattered when they came out with the Fairphone 4.
I am just hoping now that I cling to this FP3 until frame.work gets bold enough to expand into phones as well.
k__
I noticed two ways.
Either you don't get any updates and at one point you can't use any app because it's outdated.
Or you get all updates and at one point you can't use any apps, because your phone became unbearably slow.
rekoil
The problem is really that the SoCs aren't maintained for long, and the complexity of the SoC concept makes maintaining it yourself as the device manufacturer at best impractical, maybe even impossible if the SoC manufacturer won't release necessary source code to you.
They want it this way because then they can sell more SoCs because users end up upgrading more often, and device manufacturers (besides Fairphone) don't complain because their interests are aligned.
On the Apple side you see devices getting support for much longer as Apple designs and maintains it's SoCs in-house, and at least to a degree value device longevity because that keeps second-hand prices relatively high, and that aligns somewhat with Apples interests.
Not quite 10 years, but we've seen feature updates for just under 7 years with the iPhone 6s (released 2015), and it's still receiving security updates and bug fixes.
fsflover
> The problem is really that the SoCs aren't maintained for long
Why is this not a problem with laptops?
pachico
Yup, that's what I'm dealing with and it sucks.
I am typing this from a phone that I am already considering replacing for this very same reason although it does everything well and I looks brand new (rubber case, screen protection, etc.).
I understand phones are harder to upgrade because space is very limited but the e-waste we're generating (and the money impact) seems something that needs to be addressed.
zelphirkalt
I think it is also about the use cases and apps you use. For example: I have 1 phone older than 10y serving as a music player, almost never having Internet connection, almost always being in airplane mode. Another phone as my normal phone, also nearing 10y old, with a screen that is partially broken, but still accepts touch input fine everywhere, inherited from someone else, used usually only for Signal and Hackernews reading, rarely browsing in Firefox, nothing really feeling slow. Then I have one much newer phone, but waaay cheaper phone and it felt terribly slow right from the start, got it only to separate concerns, and as a throwaway. Not sure what its issue is really.
My point is that with reasonable apps old phones work just fine. Just don't install crap apps or facebook or something like that, stick to well working apps. Use a phone as a phone, not as your universal computing interface and you should be OK for a long time.
Levitz
Depending on how comfortable you are with tinkering with your devices (in terms of software) I recommend you take a look at LineageOS and check if your device is supported.
I used a motorola moto g (the one with 1 GB of RAM!) from 2015 until last year.
robertlagrant
> and the money impact
I imagine if this is something that lots of people want, it will result in more alternatives, but also raised prices. So it might not save money, but it might well result in less waste.
trenchgun
There should not be a need. There is enough performance, and it has plateaued.
ratg13
I also don't understand their comment. I've been buying either a flagship Android or iPhone every upgrade and don't remember not getting at least 5 years out of a phone.
Even at 5 years I only ever felt like I was upgrading because it was 'time', not out of a direct need.
I can only imagine a person getting 3 years out of a phone if they are buying junk.
johnnyanmac
They talk about online games. Mobile gaming has become night and day in the last 4-5 years, so if you're trying to play the newest ones you may not even meet minimum specs.
I feel it's a temporary problem like PC's, where eventually they will plateau on performance and a 10YO potato will (eventually) be able to play 99% of "high end" games in some capacity, similar to how a Steam Deck can play most games (even most AAA) without special accomadations. But I imagine there will be at least 5-6 more years of moore's law before it falls off (like it did on PC around... 2015-6?)
----
could also just be a low end phone. My Asus ROG 5 lasted 2.5 ish years before it literally died (sent it in for repairs to the motherboard based on online symptoms, for 3 weeks. paid $100 for shipping... died 2 months later) and instead of buying a brand new phone I just purchased the same model for half the price I bought it at launch. Still chews through pretty much every game despite being 3 years old.
cogman10
I truly only upgrade my phone because it has fallen out of security support. I'd still be using my old Pixel 2 if it had security support.
Fairphone looks mighty tempting with a replaceable battery as the only annoyance I have with my current phone (Pixel 6) is the battery is starting to lose steam.
rekoil
When the modular phone concepts appeared online (in the early '10s?) I was convinced that this was where it would take us, so when I heard about Fairphone, I really thought it was going to be that.
Slightly disappointed it hasn't happened yet.
lopis
I really really hope FairPhone has a plan to start making their phones upgradable. They gave us a taste of it with the 3T. The FP5 is so similar to the FP4. I imagine they will eventually be able to estabilize the design and start offering backwards compatible parts. Until the 4, the hardware was just not up to industry standards.
whazor
You would not upgrade from the 5 to a 6, as it would be a small upgrade. You would likely want to upgrade from a 3, but the design is too old, the cameras are too small, and probably other problems. I think we need a very stable upgradable base.
lopis
But that's what I mean. In 3-4 years I don't want to upgrade my phone, but if I need to replace some broken parts, it would be nice to be able to upgrade them. I replaced my FP3 cameras at the time with the better ones in that exact scenario.
cassepipe
I am only buying second hand galaxy s7 (2106) and they work fine. If needed battery replacement is rather easy to do if you follow a tutorial.
I use it watch youtube videos, browse the web (probably not the fastest but fast enough), use Google Maps, take pictures, listen to music. Basic phone usage you know.
rexreed
I also have some s7 but the version of android won't support the latest banking apps so it's becoming rapidly obsolete. What are you doing about app support on the android on s7?
cassepipe
I haven´t had any problems with any app, even my banking app
wkjagt
I’m using my original iPhone SE (2016). I replaced the battery a couple of weeks ago, and I’m often at 80% by the end of the day. For regular phone use, I find this phone is perfect. So small you don’t feel it in your pocket, and still does the basic things really well.
cheese_van
With WI-fi and all connection turned off (except simple texting with no images), and with all apps deleted that can be deleted, I have 80% remaining after a couple of weeks or more.
I suppose its somewhat of a privilege to use a modern phone only as a phone, but there's a certain smug peace of mind to be had - as well as security.
I'm also tempted to politely ask you to get off my lawn in the off-chance you are wondering about my demographic.
ilkke
I have the same problem and no real solution. FWIW I've been able to make my (mid-range android) phone last for 7+ years now by uninstalling some apps whenever memory becomes an issue. Also I update apps only when forced.
tetris11
Samsung j3 mini, running Android 11. I think there's even a 12 Lineage available, but the current one is so stable as a daily driver that I don't feel the need.
sowbug
Motivated by this article, and already thinking about handing down my current phone to a family member as a Christmas gift, I visited the Fairphone store (https://shop.fairphone.com/ though likely available only on Amazon in the US) and read one review (https://www.theverge.com/23895548/fairphone-5-review-price-f...). Here's why I'm holding off.
1. No wireless charging. Switching to this phone would require a big change in my household's ecosystem (sorry to use a big word for a small thing, but I can't think of a better one). We have $10 wireless charging discs all over the place, and it's nice to be able to charge whenever we set our phones down. I don't want to take a step backward.
2. The Verge's review suggests the camera is OK but not great. I've been taking Pixel photos for years, and my phone is always the one people ask to use for group shots at social events. I don't want to fuss with taking a picture ten times just to get the lighting right, and the Pixel almost always meets the bar on the first shot. It sucks that a consumption device like a phone has this one critical input feature, and that there is still so much of a computational photography gap between certain brands and the rest, but that's how it is, and it prevents me from seriously considering any of them. (This isn't unique to Pixel; I hear Apple does well in this area, too.)
3. Just a nit: why is the case 40 euros? I expect to pay a premium for the phone because of the specific compromises in the design and the resulting low volumes. But this is just another run-of-the-mill TPU case that I expect I'd have to routinely replace every couple years. I don't use screen protectors, but I have an even more allergic reaction to the 33-euro price of the one for sale. I know there are aftermarket options, but I'm already taking a risk of poor part/accessory availability in the future because it's a niche product, so I don't know whether they'll still be available when I need them years from now.
By the way, I do own a Framework laptop (11th-gen CPU), and I like it a lot. I plan to swap out the motherboard next year. Unlike the Fairphone, the Framework didn't impose cost and performance compromises right out of the gate. I support sustainability, but there's only so far I'm willing to go.
Buxato
1. Always sad for me to know how much popular are wireless chargers, wasting 47% more energy aprox for charging the same as a wired charger. https://debugger.medium.com/wireless-charging-is-a-disaster-... (too much catastrophic conclusions in this article but that percentage is real, you could check it in another tests, articles, whatever ..)
2. Totally agree with that, if camera is fundamental for you maybe not the right choice.
3. They also take compromises to have an ethical production, try to guarantee there is no exploitation as much as they could, from the extraction of mineral, manufacturing ... (they didn't do it for all, but they are advancing as far as they could, also with all existing certifications for that, so it's normal that is expensive. So our choice to value that things, if we could afford it, or not.
gruez
>1. Always sad for me to know how much popular are wireless chargers, wasting 47% more energy aprox for charging the same as a wired charger. https://debugger.medium.com/wireless-charging-is-a-disaster-... (too much catastrophic conclusions in this article but that percentage is real, you could check it in another tests, articles, whatever ..)
The percentage value looks bad but how much is that in absolute terms? Using the figures from the article, wireless charging uses 6.75 Wh more per full charge. Assuming you charge that much every day, that's 2.46 kWh per year, or 42 cents at average US electricity prices[1]. I think that's a price worth paying for the convenience.
[1] https://www.bls.gov/regions/midwest/data/averageenergyprices...
GuB-42
Maybe it is, but we are talking about the Fairphone. A phone that the company pitches as more eco-friendly than the competition. Lacking a feature that is known to be wasteful in terms of energy is fitting.
Maybe it is negligible, but I suspect that in the grand scheme of things, the whole "fair trade" thing is negligible too, it didn't stop the company from building on that. At least, it sends a good message.
asolidtime1
>> 1. Always sad for me to know how much popular are wireless chargers, wasting 47% more energy aprox for charging the same as a wired charger.
Sure, but compared to everything else we use, smartphones use almost no energy. The one I'm typing this on has a battery capacity of 12 wh; if you have a resistive electric water heater, standing in a hot shower during the winter for an extra second would offset half of that.
delecti
This nerd sniped me and I had to do the math to confirm, but you're right, at least depending on where you get your estimates and regional power costs. The energy equivalent between a cell phone and shower time is on the order of seconds.
My phone's battery is 4385 mAh @3.7V, or 0.016 kWh, and my power costs $0.1252/kWh, or about $0.002 per phone charge. Based on some super surface-level estimates from googling, a typical shower is about 2 gallon/min, and the cost to heat water is about $0.01-0.02 per gallon, meaning for me it's actually about 4 seconds of hot water per phone charge.
sowbug
Ouch! I already feel bad about shaving in the shower! That is an evocative way to put it.
zlg_codes
This is the one less eco-friendly thing I'm not letting go of. Hot showers are amazing.
maegul
> 1. Always sad for me to know how much popular are wireless chargers, wasting 47% more energy aprox for charging the same as a wired charger.
Lots of sibling replies pointing out that the absolute energy loss is negligible and reasonable price for the convenience.
That’s fine.
But there’s a bigger point. This convenience is being used as a justification for sticking with big brand phones. Which maybe tips the balance on the reasonableness, and, more broadly, raises the general issue of how much buying for convenience is a slippery slope. Maybe just charge with a cable?
fnord123
But sowbug has 10 dollar wireless charging pads all over his house. How can we use a cable?
calamari4065
If you use fast wired charging, which most phones do, you're causing significant wear to the battery. With daily fast charging, I've seen phones chew through their battery in under a year.
Conversely, the rather slow charge rate of wireless helps extend battery life quite a lot. This is why I never use fast charging, avoid wired charging in general, and limit my battery to 85% max charge. It's been three or four years and my battery is still at ~80% health.
Which is worse, wasting a small amount of power or trashing your phone's battery in a year or two? One has significantly higher monetary and environmental costs.
Besides all that, wired charging is not nearly as efficient as you think. The charge circuitry in your phone is optimistically 80-90%. The wall adapter can be anywhere from 50 to 90%, and scales pretty closely to how much you paid for it. Efficiency also goes down with faster charge rates.
I design switching converters and lithium charge circuits for my job. They're pretty great, but not nearly as good as you'd think.
gruez
>This is why I never use fast charging, avoid wired charging in general
Wireless charging isn't a silver bullet either. It generates tons of waste heat, which is also bad for batteries. I'm also not sure why you're so against wired charging, especially since you have to go out of your way and pay a premium for fast charge capable chargers. If you buy a bog standard 5W/10W charger, you're not fast charging. If you plug your phone into your computer, you're likely getting slow charging (0.5A to 1A).
Nullabillity
> Besides all that, wired charging is not nearly as efficient as you think. The charge circuitry in your phone is optimistically 80-90%. The wall adapter can be anywhere from 50 to 90%, and scales pretty closely to how much you paid for it. Efficiency also goes down with faster charge rates.
The costs of wireless are on top of all of the costs of wired. You're not getting away from battery management just because you're using the air as a very inefficient cable.
binkHN
> If you use fast wired charging, which most phones do, you're causing significant wear to the battery.
I don't know about other Android phones, but Google's Pixel line of phones will do a slow charge overnight and time the top off to be in line with your morning alarm. So, my thought is that effort is being made here to extend battery life by specifically not fast charging overnight.
fomine3
Slow wired charging is the best. Just buy a dirt cheap USB-A to C cable.
Al-Khwarizmi
In my experience, the best battery care measure is to get a phone with a good battery...
I bought a Huawei P30 Pro in early 2019, never took care of preserving the battery, always used fast charging (which is very fast in that phone, 40 W). 4 years later, the battery is still going strong (now the phone belongs to my wife).
On the other hand, I bought a Pixel 6 Pro in early 2021. From the beginning, I saw that the battery barely lasted a day of heavy usage, so I was more careful (trying to never get below 20%, deactivating 5G, etc.), plus the phone charges slower (around 20 W, I think) and has built-in charge planning to charge slower overnight. Even with all that, two years later, the battery is absolute crap. If I'm going to use the phone frequently (e.g. when travelling) I need an external battery to last though the day.
binkHN
> Always sad for me to know how much popular are wireless chargers, wasting 47% more energy aprox for charging the same as a wired charger.
The energy waste is a shame, but the convenience factor is mighty high, not to mention the wear and tear on your USB-C port is non-existent. Maybe one point for less USB cable waste and tossing perfectly good phones just because their USB ports are damaged?
imp0cat
You can get one of those magnetic adapters if you worry about your USB-C port that much.
sowbug
Your point on wireless-charging waste is valid, but I'm not sure a hypothetical initiative to reduce national electricity consumption should prioritize addressing it. The waste is similar to using a 7-watt LED bulb one hour extra per day (16Wh phone battery requires an extra 47% or 7.52 watts to charge wirelessly from 0% to 100% each night).
The concern about wireless inefficiency is very well-placed, however, in the case of electric cars. EVs will become an enormous consumer of electricity in the near future, so small changes now can have a big cumulative effect. "Charge your car as conveniently as your phone" would be an effective marketing tagline, so to that extent I agree that phones set a bad example for needless energy consumption in the name of convenience.
(edit: oops, bunch of other commenters made the same point while I was writing mine)
Sebb767
> The concern about wireless inefficiency is very well-placed, however, in the case of electric cars.
I don't think so. For one, with EVs you are paying pretty directly for the charge and nearly 50% extra for the hassle of not plugging in the cable seems excessive. For a charging station it would probably be more profitable to hire someone to plug your car in instead of going wireless, even disregarding the setup cost.
But, more importantly, fast wireless charging generates heat. This is fine for the miniscule amount of energy in phones, but would probably pose a serious problem with the wattage involved in changing EVs. We're currently at the point of having charging cables with integrated cooling, the inefficiency of wireless would likely either cook the car or limit the speed too much to be viable ("charge your car as conveniently as your phone, in a meager three days!").
numpad0
Qi receivers on phones don't wear out as fast as physical connectors do. There are no hard reasons why wireless is better in durability but practically they tend to be more reliable.
technothrasher
This is exactly when I've used wireless charging the most, after my physical connector has broken. It let's me extend the life of the phone.
mtmail
This 2016 article puts the cost of charging an ipad at $1.55 per year (iphone lower but I assume batteries got bigger or time). 47% wastage with wireless chrome is not much in terms of energy costs. https://www.zdnet.com/article/how-much-does-it-cost-to-charg...
autoexec
I'll add to your list of fairphone shortcomings the lack of a headphone jack. I really don't buy their excuse that including one would make the phone too large to be commercially viable.
Tade0
Especially that Sony still includes one in a smaller, lighter device.
Not to mention all the previous generations of phones that had it.
caoilte
i think the reason is fair, but unfortunately it is a dealbreaker for me. i would definitely have got one earlier this year if it had had one.
criddell
So what do you think the real reason is?
autoexec
I couldn't say... most likely they just don't see it as a priority, but I'm sure that not including one lowers their costs and takes less effort which could be a motivator.
orthecreedence
Same. I've been extremely resistant to any device without a headphone jack. I don't get this weird obsession with removing them. Apple made the idiotic decision originally because they have this weird air of "knowing better than you" but what I don't get is why other manufacturers followed suit.
Oh well.
prmoustache
1. People in my household put their phone to charge only once a day, when they go to bed. How hard is it to plug a phone once a day?
stronglikedan
Then people in your household either (a) don't really use their phones that much or (b) get brand new phones with brand new batteries every year. There is no phone battery that lasts an entire day for a person that uses their >1yo phone a lot throughout the day.
prmoustache
I bought my phone before the covid pandemic and it is rarely below 50% when I go to bed.
The only thing that make it drain faster is if I use a lot the GPS but that is usually when I am travelling in a vehicule and in those rare cases it is plugged and charging while operating.
I think you have a social media addiction issue if you have to charge your phone several times a day.
digging
Horseshit. I could charge my Pixel 5 once every other day, and I use it for photography as well as meme scrolling and messaging. If you're using your phone so much that it needs to be be charged twice a day then you're almost certainly using it in a way that's worse for your health than for the battery life. Or you're wasting a lot of battery life on background telemetry.
Do you use battery saver mode? I actually try not to fully charge my phone, but keep it between 30%-70%, which puts less strain on it, and battery saver kicks on at 50%.
calamari4065
How hard is it to drop your phone on a charging pad?
broscillator
it's about 1% more convenient
mrpopo
"Supporting" sustainability, but you don't accept having to plug your phone once-a-day like 90% of smartphone owners, you want to have the best phone camera in your social group, and you don't want screen protectors.
I'm shocked we have come to this as a society. If you don't accept any compromises, just admit that you don't really care and move on.
jLaForest
You can buy wireless charging modules that plug into the USB port and are hidden between the case and phone
polishdude20
Around Christmas time I always consider giving a family member one of my old smart phones. But then I remember I stopped using them because they got old and the battery life sucks.
yencabulator
Great argument for swappable batteries in standard sizes.
orthecreedence
What are you, a communist?
qingcharles
My friend has a Pixel 7 (non Pro) and it takes pretty crappy photos for such a high-end phone. Shooting in RAW with all the hi-res options turned on. Anything that would help? Better camera app than the Google one?
jancsika
> I've been taking Pixel photos for years, and my phone is always the one people ask to use for group shots at social events.
If the average social gathering is more than two people, this is already a minority use case.
If the average is even just 10 that's only at most 10% of cell phone users like you.
In short, I believe you've just written the first formal proof of obscurantism on HN. :)
thih9
Say I own an iPhone and I’m considering a Fairphone. Which iphone model would I have to own for the transition to make sense, both for user experience and sustainability?
I.e. Iphone 15 surely not. But iphone 5 for sure yes. Where is the cutoff?
I’m choosing iphones because they’re recognizable and have a predictable release schedule. Let’s disregard ios vs android angle if possible.
frabcus
I had an iPhone 11 and the Fairphone 5 feels like an upgrade. (Case on the former as it shatters and is expensive to repair and no case on the latter)
thih9
Is the case really a factor in the scenario of an upgrade? I.e. why not remove the iphone’s case and upgrade when/if your phone breaks?
nerdponx
My Rhino Shield "Crash Guard" bumper case has protected several generations of iPhones from my clumsiness, dropping it on all manner of hard surfaces from chest height or higher. Yes it's annoying to pay $30 for a case for my glass supercomputer, but I wouldn't base my phone purchase decision based on the need for a case. If anything, I'd prefer a phone that is supported by this particular case, because there is no phone that I really expect to be built to this kind of spec (and I probably wouldn't want one that was, considering what tradeoffs might be involved).
fancyfredbot
I owned a fairphone 3. It was expensive but very easy to take apart and promised years of updates. Then it broke, after about 18 months. Fine, I thought, I'm glad I got a repairable phone. I'll just fix it, it'll be easy. I determined the problem was with the main logic board and found that a) a new one would cost much more than an entirely new, and more capable phone and b) it was out of stock.
I just bought a new phone. I didn't feel good about my fairphone experience.
kwiens
Main board failures are hard, they'll kill just about any phone and it's pretty challenging to make the service part economically viable.
For what it's worth, I don't know of any systemic problems / higher than usual error rates with the Fairphone 3 main board. You got unlucky.
Consider giving them another shot sometime!
dymk
What’s the point of a repairable phone if parts are out of stock?
josefx
One of dozens of parts is out of stock and as the other comment points out itself it is also the part that makes the least sense to replace.
crabbone
It's just the kind of part that doesn't merit repairs... it's unfortunate, but with any equipment there will be such parts.
smoldesu
Having access to donor parts from cheap used models?
lock-the-spock
Given Fairphone is a rather small company they sometimes have such problems of economy of scale - no manufacturer will prioritise you if you make small orders.
That said, one reason for the Fairphone price is the "fair to the people labouring for the parts of the phone" part. I'm unhappy with the camera quality, but honestly knowing that the premium I pay means fairer working conditions is for me an important element. I prefer to pay the small social enterprise establishing a new kind of supply chain and developing a modular phone, rather than the Samsung CEOs and stockholders.
CarVac
This is why I like the Framework way: keep the chassis the same so you can just buy a shiny new motherboard with the latest processor if your old motherboard dies.
It's probably not as suitable for phones what with changes to antenna requirements and such though.
0x6c6f6c
To be fair, you are describing a 1:1 comparison of how Fairphone does it here. The issue of economical viability for PC motherboards is easier than smartphone mainboards, but the premise is basically the same- the core component of the device dies and needs to be replaced. There are more modular standards for PC to make the hit here less hard (memory, being the big one) but it's all the same. Fairphone has not done as good of a job as Framework has in making it viable for customers to replace their mainboards, and I will say I think Framework is the odd one here in really stepping up in that market.
codetrotter
Sorry to hear that :(
However, I do want to point out that when such unfortunate things happen, perhaps the remaining parts that still works could be helpful to other fairphone users?
Vinnl
I'm typing this from my Fairphone 4, which I started using Sunday after almost reaching the six-year mark of my FP2. One reason that obedience managed to last as long is that a friend stopped using his FP2, and I could use his old phone for spare parts.
jaeckel
Sorry to hear that! I have a pretty low sample size of ~8 friends on FP3 and I can't remember hearing of a single hardware failure. Some batteries got replaced and some are even still going strong on their first battery. I've updated mine from 3 to 3+ and I'm on my second battery since this summer, I.e. the main board is ~4years old. A friend had some minor issues in the beginning with some internal connector but I can't remember him mentioning it again.
Another friend got rid of her FP2 this spring in favor of a FP4, but only because some apps she uses got really unusable. Otherwise she would've stayed.
IMO it's a fairly good platform and I'm looking forward to how it evolves in the future. Hopefully they will introduce a smaller phone at one point.
vinc
I had to replace the USB module on my FP3 because it couldn't charge my battery anymore. At first I tried to replace the battery but that didn't work, and I was afraid that the issue would be from the motherboard, but no I just needed to change that module. Great experience!
keraf
I bought a FP3+, still using it after 3 years, but would not go Fairphone again. Despite supporting what the company stands for, I feel they didn't deliver on their promises.
I was hoping for more upgrades to be available over time, but that was never the case. Instead, two new models appeared with a year interval and the 4 didn't even get any upgrades. Worse even, the 3.5mm jack was removed, following the trend of getting customers to buy headphones with a limited life time due to their battery. The promise of being the responsible choice for the planet is fading away.
I also faced issues when it came to repairing my device. After only 3 months the USB-C port died, impossible to charge it and once out of battery, I couldn't get my data from it. I contacted the support and they offered me two solutions: I send in the phone, it will get fixed but wiped clean or I order the part online and they reimburse me (they couldn't just send it from the repair center...). I chose the latter as I didn't want to loose my data and felt it was the more ecologically responsible choice, especially since the phone is so repairable. Well, the part was not available on their store, checked every retailer in Europe and third party parts don't exist. I was stuck with a brick for 4 months. The irony is that if I had an iPhone or Galaxy, I could get it fixed the same day at the phone repair shop around the corner...
I appreciate all the efforts Fairphone put in setting up more responsible supply chains. But in my opinion they still failed on their sustainability promise. The devices aren't well supported, it's difficult to repair them and they quickly fall behind due to the lack of upgrades (that also goes with the main board not being replaceable). New devices follow the disastrous trends of other brands with a new model each year and removing the headphone jack. Sure, they are a business and need to make money, but not by going against their own values.
hyperthesis
I had a similar experience with replaceable batteries (1) expensive on the one hand, but at the same time (2) unavailable.
I think batteries are the main consumable of a phone. It seems to me there should be an after-market of smaller batteries, and a set of universal power adapters (like you get with power supplies), and shims to fit it securely within the phone.
But I haven't seen this, so either people prefer to upgrade (demand) or manufacturers successfully made it too hard (supply).
mcv
Although I really appreciate Fairphone, I've got to admit my experience is similar. I had a Fairphone 2 until the screen went haywire. Not broken, but showed random noise. Replacing it was expensive. Meanwhile, I've replaced several broken iPhone screens. Even if iPhone's are harder to repair, they're still not all that hard to repair. It just takes time and patience. And instructions from ifixit of course.
sambalbadjak
I thought that fairphone was: you buy once, and you can upgrade modules over time. But it seems that modules of newer fairphones don't necessarily fit an older fairphone. So it's more about repairable for that specific version. Which is still better than no repairability.. but I imagine you can feel quite duped still having to buy a new phone every 3 years and throwing the old one out.
Anyone with experience of having a fairphone for multiple years?
ctenb
I own an FP 4 since it aired. No complaints so far. I mainly use it for browsing. I haven't needed any repairs yet, but I like the idea of that being an easy feat. Of course everyone hopes that they can make their phones more modular and upgradable than they do now, but it's also understandable they have to iterate their architecture before they can converge on a design that truely lasts multiple generations of upgrades.
DamonHD
I first bought a FP1 and I am now on a FP3. The FP1 is still just about operable as an emergency phone, and maybe a tiny bit of browsing. The FP3 is going fine. I have chosen not to upgrade the camera module, though I am still thinking about it. The 'F' has fallen off the backing plate so I in fact own an 'AIRPHONE'. A friend by the same token owns "A PHONE" which I pointed out is an entirely accuate failure mode! B^>
crimsoneer
I got the 4 a little over a year and half ago... and I feel mostly happy. I've replaced the screen twice because I'm an idiot, and like replaceable batteries. Would be nice to be able to upgrade the camera, so sad I can't do that.
have_faith
Does anyone know of a site that does an "objective" comparison of the various flagships and their ethical claims? like how does Apple's material sourcing compare to Fairphone, compared to Samsung etc.
XorNot
A repairable phone is honestly less interesting to me at this point then a seamless user-environment restore experience, which I still can't get.
Even with all the cloud-leeching and I presume data mining, if I crushed my phone into dust today, there's absolutely no way even if I get exactly the same model (which I can't) to get it to restore back to exactly how it was.
At this point I've been considering prodding Ansible and ADB to see if it can handle the config setup part, but given how locked down phones actually are I doubt it's viable.
0x38B
Google have worsened backup and filesystem access for power users as they've locked things down; I remember using Titanium Backup on an Android 5 or 6 device to back up my apps and their data, as well as exporting my SMSes and call log to xml, then restoring it all without a hitch.
I wish we had a choice; I'd happily give up some security for an experience closer to my Linux laptop. And don't even get me started on my iPhone and filesystem access there (1).
1: 99% of iOS music players don't expose their music library as a folder in Files; one of the only ones that does is, funnily enough, a cross-platform Android-iOS-Windows app, Neutron Music Player². With Neutron, I can open a-shell³ and 'yt-dlp' a playlist from YouTube or Bandcamp to a new folder in my Neutron music folder - some obscure (esp. foreign) albums and soundtracks aren't available to buy where I am.
yellow_lead
As an Android user, the sad thing about this is that iPhone seems to have had it for years. Plus, I'm told the upgrade functionality is nearly seamless.
RcouF1uZ4gsC
> On the other hand, the Fairphone 5 is hardly a ball of fire when it comes to processor power. Though it comes with the fastest industrial chip (not a Snapdragon) made by Qualcomm, that puts it squarely in the mid-range rather than rubbing shoulders with more exotic devices.
I think performance might be what limits its actual useful life. I have had to replace phones more for being slow (since software is always eating up more and more performance) than for actual physical failures.
jandrese
CPU speed isn't usually the thing that kills a phone, it's running out of memory. If they oversize (or allow upgrades of) the memory it could easily last that long.
carstenhag
I think only my first Android (Samsung s3) had this bottleneck. The others were slow due to CPU or by being severely limited by the battery.
BenjiWiebe
My Samsung s5 that I currently use is also severely crippled by its low RAM. I have replaced the battery (no tools needed!) otherwise that would be pretty bad too, as it had really degraded.
dtx1
I'm really considering Fairphone 5 as an Upgrade to my Pixel 3a with Graphene OS. Hardware seems fine (5g, Wifi 6e, reasonable SoC, MicroSD, etc.) but the absolute terrible state of Fairphone Software and their abhorrent record on dealing with security issues is really putting me off. So I'm waiting for Lineage OS to officially support it, hoping that they get this done better.
fgeiger
What do you mean with "abhorrent record on dealing with security issues"?
And you would even prefer Lineage OS? Isn't that still more or less mandating userdebug builds and entirely open?
Disclaimer: I work for Fairphone.
dtx1
Hey, thanks for answering!
So in regards to security let me first refer to this thread: https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/7208-8y-security-updates-on...
And it might sound unfair to compare the fairphone to a pixel device or a pixel device with grapheneos but the practical reality is that if this is going to be my one phone, than it will be the hub for all my private conversations, my bank forces me to use an app based authentication so basically my entire finances are on that device, e-mails, including those with doctors, etc.
It has to be secure and it has to up to date. And I am aware that my Pixel 3a currently isn't but I'm literally between buying the fairphone or the pixel 8. And I really don't want glued in batteries.
Now, let's see what the current state is for the fairphone 4: https://support.fairphone.com/hc/en-us/articles/440585822094...
Release date: 3rd Nov 2023 Security Patch Level: 5th October 2023
According to the Android Security Bulletin there are two more bulletins out right now: https://source.android.com/docs/security/bulletin/2023-11-01
In November and December each there is at least one Critical System CVE, with google noting:
> Note: There are indications that the following may be under limited, targeted exploitation. > CVE-2023-33063 > CVE-2023-33107 > CVE-2023-33106
So...Those aren't patched right now on the fairphone 4, are they? Now I'm not arguing most other companies are doing better, but that doesn't make it a good situation.
> And you would even prefer Lineage OS? Isn't that still more or less mandating userdebug builds and entirely open?
As far as lineage is concerned, i'll be waiting for an official release to even be there before evaluating the security but I am aware of the userdebug issue.
Though let me say that "abhorrent" is propably not the best adjective to describe it here. Unsatisfying would be fairer. As for the rest of the software... I just have to look at the forums dude...
fgeiger
Okay, that is fair: I am also not happy about us being late with security patches for several weeks. I am not directly involved in that anymore, but I believe, we currently have a policy to release updates quarterly.
Back when I was still working on security updates, this took up so much resources that we struggled to work on anything else (bug fixes, major upgrades, etc.). It is unfortunately a compromise that we currently have to make with our limited resources.
Still, we are planning to release these regular security updates for 10 years and we have a track record of sticking to such plans. In my opinion, that is much better than having monthly updates for a couple of years. (Btw: outside of flagships, many models don't get monthly updates anyway and not even for long.)
trompetenaccoun
Can you talk about GrapheneOS a bit? I'm seriously considering switching over but don't really know anything about the people maintaining the project. Most seem to use pseudonyms and I saw the founder Daniel Micay recently quit the project over some drama. Which is his right, fair enough. Is anyone trustworthy auditing the code and how do I know a competent team will still be around in a few years maintaining it?
Don't get me wrong, I definitely appreciate what they're doing. It's just we do so much with our smartphones these days, it's hard not to be paranoid about security issues or hacks. I really want to say goodbye to Apple though.
ponector
Quite expensive. For regular buyer it is better to get for the same money two phones: one new phone now and another new in 3 years.
VoxPelli
For the planet: Not much better
globular-toast
Then the government needs to add those external costs to non-repairable phones to make the Fairphone competitive on price too. Unfortunately the vast majority of people will consider price first.
VoxPelli
Yes and no, resell value needs to be acknowledged by people buying them just like people do when they eg buy a car
But you are right, and the government has done so to some degree, but they did it badly and I believe it also affected refurbished phones, making a phone pay for its production emissions over and over
rootusrootus
There's more nuance than that. Total lifetime matters. If the first buyer keeps it 3 years, the next buyer may well keep it 3 more, or even longer.
arrowsmith
Or the first buyer keeps it for three years then needlessly throws it away, or (more likely) shoves it in a drawer somewhere until it gets thrown away ten years later.
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Really loving my Fairphone 5 - basically smartphones are enough of a commodity now everything feels really high quality and fast physically. The sky blue colour is really nice. AND also it avoids conflict metals, is repairable.
Much much better than my last Fairphone (which was the Fairphone 2).
I switched from an iPhone this time. I'm also enjoying that Android is a bit more programmable without rooting it - running a full Unix distribution in Termux, scripting it with Tasker to run Python scripts on events etc. Actual Firefox.