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firebat45
015a
Their mass production of the Pi keyboard should clue you into at least one direction that they believe "the Pi is all about"; education, and increasing access to modern computing hardware. Enhancing the performance envelope and connecting to a monitor do, to me, seem like worthy steps toward that end.
Everyone uses general purpose computers differently. I feel your statement "they've forgotten what the RPi is all about" isn't just ignorant; its hurtful. Maybe their direction isn't parallel with what you want out of the products they make, but you should at least have the empathy to recognize that you aren't the main character in this play.
alpaca128
How are two niche ports requiring adapters more accessible than one full-size HDMI port? Are two ports on such constrained hardware really worth it? If my adapter cable breaks (which already happened) I have to order a new one and can't use the device while sitting on a pile of unused but unsupported HDMI cables. Meanwhile iirc it took until after the launch of the Pi 4 to get USB boot support without first flashing and booting a microSD card, another piece of hardware not known for its longevity.
The RPi project is amazing and I'm glad it exists, but some decisions are just weird considering their goals. Though to be fair the RPi 4 & 5 improved the situation significantly.
hadlock
The weird niche port for video is the #1 reason I stopped using raspberry pi. I have one adapter, somewhere, but I'll be damned if I can find it in less than an hour. It's at the bottom of some bag or drawer of infrequently used adapters
ShadowBanThis01
Amen. Micro-HDMI is trash and should NEVER be used, because it will break promptly... especially on a dinky device that moves and shifts a lot.
If a full-sized HDMI port is somehow too big (which it isn't on the regular-sized Pi, and definitely not on the 400), they should just use USB-C ports with DisplayPort capability. I'd rather use a DP-to-HDMI adapter (which is cheap and effective) than a shitty micro-HDMI port.
ddingus
I have mixed feelings about that.
Personally, I found the mini HDMI ports themselves a downgrade. One is forever looking for adapters. However, having two displays is nice!
It boils down to whether someone is using the device like a computer.
The Pi 400 is a nice, respectable computer and I use one for development. Two displays makes sense and is high value.
Now you can absolutely use the device.
I have an epaper project in development. I have the epaper setup and attached to a Pi 3. That makes sense and it works well. Code output goes there and I have it all in one place.
I use it in two basic ways:
One is headless, using VNC to access dev tools and code located right on the Pi. I keep various wi-fi setups handy and can copy a new one onto the SD card if needed. Usually, I am powering the Pi with my laptop in that scenario.
The other is via plugged in displays with keyboard and mouse.
I do both of those with Pi 3 and 4 devices.
The Pi-400 needs the display adapter and though I have not lost or broken one yet, it seems to me simply attaching an adapter permanently to the computer would make a lot of sense.
This thread makes me want to 3d print a different case so that I can incorporate the adapters properly and just expose HDMI slots like we see on the earlier devices.
Finally, just a tip:
I will often use my laptop as a display for the Pi with one of those HDMI capture devices. Power the Pi with the laptop and bring up a display to work with.
nelgaard
The two HDMI ports are worth it for me. I have a project with Raspberry PI 400 in multiseat kiosk mode.
It has two monitors, and an extra keyboard and mouse. The microHmdi->HDMI cables you can get for 2 dollars each.
It paid for itself in saved electricity bills in about a month (it replaced older computers and I set it up just when electricity went through the roof here in Europe).
On the other hand I did not need wifi or bluetooth. But wireless, and the extra HDMI probably does not add much to the price. I think Raspberry made reasonable choices regarding ports, etc.
ddingus
I have mixed feelings about that.
Personally, I found the mini HDMI ports themselves a downgrade. One is forever looking for adapters. However, having two displays is nice!
It boils down to whether someone is using the device like a computer.
The Pi 400 is a nice, respectable computer and I use one for development. Two displays makes sense and is high value.
Now you can absolutely use the device.
I have an epaper project in development. I have the epaper setup and attached to a Pi 3. That makes sense and it works well. Code output goes there and I have it all in one place.
I use it in two basic ways:
One is headless, using VNC to access dev tools and code located right on the Pi. I keep various wi-fi setups handy and can copy a new one onto the SD card if needed. Usually, I am powering the Pi with my laptop in that scenario.
The other is via plugged in displays with keyboard and mouse.
I do both of those with Pi 3 and 4 devices.
The Pi-400 needs the display adapter and though I have not lost or broken one yet, it seems to me simply attaching an adapter permanently to the computer would make a lot of sense.
This thread makes me want to 3d print a different case so that I can incorporate the adapters properly and just expose HDMI slots like we see on the earlier devices.
stonogo
Famously the devices have been difficult to acquire because RPi was putting all their manufacturing output into fulfilling commercial market needs (1,2,3). Filling a market need -- well-specced hardware with long support horizons -- is perfectly fine, but Upton et al. have made it very clear that this is the priority and pretending otherwise is weird. Mass producing generic USB keyboards in corporate livery does not meaningfully communicate corporate ethics here.
Meanwhile, most of the competition focuses on beating the Pi on specs, availability, or price -- and none of them seem to have noticed that long support life as being the differentiator which leads to business adoption of the Pi hardware. So I suspect the status quo will persist for the foreseeable future.
1 - https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blog/2022/you-cant-buy-raspberr... 2 - https://www.elecrow.com/blog/why-is-it-so-hard-to-buy-raspbe... 3 - https://www.tomshardware.com/news/raspberry-pi-ceo-eben-upto...
walterbell
> direction that they believe
Fortunately we don't need belief, since the foundation has years of volume-based sales data on market segments, e.g. for the last two years they have prioritized industrial business users over education, during supply chain shortages.
Is there a published market segment breakdown for each generation of RPi?
Xelynega
Their existing contracts and focus should clue you more into their desired direction than an accessory that they can produce for consumers that is tangentially related to raspberry pis.
The pi foundations focus(be it intentional or just out of a desire to stay open) has been to have prototypes created with raspberry pis that go into production without replacing the raspberry Pi so that device manufacturers are locked into large long-term contracts.
The inability for consumers to find devices available and the odd io choices(IoT video devices like kiosks would benefit from the double ports rather than a single full size HDMI) are IMO the intention of the pi foundation. Their focus is on generating contracts and fulfilling them, consumer devices are secondary.
That's to say they've "forgotten what the pi is about" insofar as they've made choices to grow the business/contract side of the pi foundation more than the education and consumer availability
ghostly_s
It's odd then that a single alternative hasn't risen to prominence to serve their original hobbyist market. There are millions of clones out there of course but any with a trusted brand name and support behind them?
ddingus
If doing that means more well supported, useful and fun computers, that is fine with me.
I have few complaints and fins the devices useful, affordable and fun.
Teever
While I admit that I am a bit envious of the large 4k monitors that my coworkers use, I have managed to make it through life without buying anything larger than a 1440p monitor.
What exactly is the educational advantage (for the demographic that the raspberry pi is supposed to be educating) of the inclusion of 2x 4k ports and does that advantage override the opportunity cost of including the ports?
In other words '1080p ought to be enough for anybody learning how computers work from an SBC.
dual_dingo
Raspberry Pi is many things today. The foundation is indeed focused on education, but the company behind it has a much broader focus and sells many (most?) of their devices to commercial customers, where 2x4k outputs might be beneficial, e.g. in digital signage applications.
philistine
Honestly, I'm just spitballing here, but it's not like the Raspberry foundation is making its own silicon. They're using what exists. It's probably a simple case of the chipset they chose supporting it, so might as well include it.
narrator
You can get $60 android tablets brand new on Amazon that don't need a monitor, keyboard and mouse and can use the vast amount of education apps in the play store.
victorbjorklund
The education part is tinkering with hardware and linux.
borisgolovnev
I got a pretty decent chromebook on eBay for 70 euros. With pretty good display, keyboard, touchpad, touchscreen, 8Gb of RAM and a battery. Runs linux great. Apparently chromebooks dominate education market nowadays, very inexpensive and arguably more useful than a Raspberry pi.
passivegains
Yeah, but devices aren't very useful for education if the students can't type on them.
sleepybrett
Agreed.
Their little 'breadbox' pi4* certainly points in that direction very heavily.
Their cheaper 'embedded' version (the zero series, and the pico) is doing what this guy wants.
* https://vilros.com/products/raspberry-pi-400-vilros?variant=...
ornornor
If you can get one, which was (still is?) impossible pretty much ever since it came out.
undefined
weberer
Here you go. Its $10 at Microcenter
lannisterstark
Not everyone lives near a microcenter though. The pi zero W/2W comes out to like , $15+ ship + taxes and is more like $24.
georgeecollins
Having grown up in a world where 8 bit computers with 4-16k ram (and no storage) cost the equivalent of $1000, inflation adjusted, this seems like an almost insane complaint. Hardware is so cheap now compared to software which is still very expensive to produce. A person could spend less than a $100 on a computer and make that money back very quickly doing various digital tasks on fiverr.
bmurphy1976
I've been trying to get two Zero W 2s for almost two years now without getting ripped off by somebody on the second hand market. They are still nearly impossible to find for the advertised price. :(
cornstalks
> 11+ at $999.99 each
Wow...
nkozyra
To discourage the hoarding that happened (although less-so with the Zero) in the last two years.
At least they're willing to take your money, a lot of shops had hard caps.
aleph_minus_one
> > 11+ at $999.99 each
> Wow...
Prices should better be sub-additive, since otherwise market arbitrage opportunities appear (in this case: to get more than 10: buy 10, and find some friends who also buy 10).
If such an irrational pricing appears, it is a sign of market failure; in this case: if the demand is higher than the demand, prices have to increase until for the given pricing level supply=demand. This is how markets self-calibrate.
bmurphy1976
I wish they took performance more seriously. I migrated a bunch of my stuff off of a Pi 4 to an Intel N100 NUC because the Pi 4 just didn't cut it. I have a bunch of other use cases as well that have struggled with the Pi 4s and competing RK3588 based systems look compelling.
Point is, your use case doesn't match my use case. I hope they continue to make things more performant AND cost effective.
wkat4242
An intel N100 NUC is just a really good low power server platform and it will always be better for that than a pi.
The pi was never meant to be a server.
tambourine_man
I never understand why people compare the Pi with NUCs. The latter is an order of magnitude more expansive (new, it’s hard to consider used stuff for serious work), has no GPIO built in, consumes way more power…
It’s in a whole other category.
bmurphy1976
Of course, but if you are trying to do something which requires GPIO or want to build on top of Rapsberry Pi's other functionality (i.e. the cameras) your options are more limited.
ahepp
I haven't bought any in a while, but looks like the Pi Zero W is in stock and available for $10 at Microcenter. Other sellers seem to have them in stock for $15. So isn't there already a widely available Pi in stock for under $20?
starik36
That's what the RPi Zero 2 is all about. They are $15 and work great.
CodeWriter23
Can’t speak for GP but I want a $20 device with a wired Ethernet port. I’m using pis where they need to reliably communicate in real time.
Blackthorn
This is accidentally a fantastic example of the issues with the original commenter's train of thought. Not everyone needs every single feature, but every single feature is needed individually by someone.
carlos_rpn
Check the Banana Pis if you haven't already. Most of them have it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_Pi
alpaca128
It's more than $20 for everything but you can buy extension PCBs that more or less turn the Pi Zero 2W into a full-size Raspberry Pi with USB-A and Ethernet ports, also making it compatible with some full-size Pi cases.
starik36
I am using a Micro USB to Ethernet adapter on the original Zero that didn't have wireless. It's been working for years with no issues at all. That's "almost" wired.
wkat4242
You can add it over USB (even with hub) for a few $$. Which is exactly how it's wired on the pi anyway until the 4.
ThatPlayer
There's the Raspberry Pi 3A+ that's 25$. One of my favorites that's less popular
Kikawala
Look at the Radxa Zero 3E, it may fit your needs.
sleepybrett
here is a 6 dollar expansion w/ ethernet for the pi zero2
londons_explore
I have found that a good chunk of random opensource projects won't run on the zero 2. The ARM core is ARM7 and doesn't support modern instructions, so plenty of software just immediately dies with 'Illefal Instruction'.
Also, it's 32 bit, and a lot of software is starting to depend on the massive address spaces offered by 64 bit.
And there is no high ram model. Some stuff just gobbles so much ram that 512M isn't practical.
ripley12
The Zero 2 W has a 64-bit Cortex-A53 (ARM8).
Aerbil313
My Pi Zero 2W is running 64 bit Raspbian and reports aarch64 (Armv8).
bmicraft
The Zero 2W has literally the same cpu as the Pi 3
repiret
Armv7. Arm7 is a much older core.
EwanToo
The Pi Zero 2 W is $20 and reasonably consistently in stock now.
opan
Totally fair desire, though some people definitely do want these to be desktop or HTPC replacements.
I'm usually more impressed with RockChip stuff anyway, though, so if the Raspberry Pi folks wanted to focus their efforts on affordable dev boards, I think there'd still be plenty of options for those who do want to play back 4k video on a monitor. They've done an excellent job with the Pi Pico, keeping it in stock and dirt cheap. I've gotten a dozen or more of those at like $4 each. So they're still catering to the "maker" types with those.
I'm excited to get a better version of something like the Pinebook Pro someday, based on a newer SoC with more RAM and a bit more GPU power for video playback and some simpler games like Minetest and Xonotic.
p_b_d
I agree, they could make two models that cater both the markets they are gong for which are "mini servers" for lans and iot where no one needs to look at the monitor and you access it with ssh/vnc, and "mini desktops" for education where an active user sits in front of a monitor.
So:
- Pi Server: without all the stuff that not belong in it -- for a cheap price like you said
- Pi Desktop: with all the stuff that belongs there -- for a premium price.
Of course this means double design, double production line, double testing,. support, etc. And will most likely reduce revenue. This is probably why they go with the all in one approach.
aag01
"In future we’ll have to do something, but for Pi 5 we feel the hardware encode is a mm^2 too far."
is corporate speech for "broadcom decided not to let us use their video IP cores for low cost/no cost any longer"
pavon
Yes, for context the Pi 1-4 all had H264 hardware encoder/decoder support, which could comfortable encode at least 720p @ 30Hz in realtime. The die space argument makes sense for why they don't have AV1/HEVC encoding, but it does not explain why H264 was dropped. The fact that the CPU is now powerful enough to encode H264 at better quality and frame rates than the old hardware encoder is a better argument, but still a step backwards for folks who need lower power consumption or need the CPU for other things, and doesn't explain why the hardware support needed to be dropped. It really does sound like something else (like licensing) drove the decision, and this is a post-facto attempt to sell/justify that decision.
philistine
Encode is always a bit messier; perhaps you need a tool which is not GPU aware, maybe your needs go beyond what the encoder can do.
But dropping the hardware h.264 decoder is a horrible thing to do. H.264 might as well be the lingua franca of online videos. Think of all the kids in classrooms loading videos on Youtube now constantly hammering the CPU for decode. It's such a weird decision that it can only be caused by business issues.
bmicraft
Youtube today is mostly vp9 anyway, if you don't use the h246ify extension which limits you on resolution/framerate anyway on many videos
moffkalast
Well presumably h264/AVC is still there? The lack of HEVC just means it doesn't have an h265 encoder.
jandrese
It is a bit frustrating how married the Raspberry Pi foundation is to a company that couldn't care less if they live or die. Broadcom has always been at best indifferent and at worst hostile to the open source community.
cogman10
There's not really an alternative.
Broadcom is one of the few options out there for ARM SoC. Rpi could dump a bunch of money into making their own SoC, but that would really ballon the costs.
jandrese
They couldn't use Rockchip or Allwinner or Texas Instruments chips? Sure there is some work they would have to do all over again getting the drivers working and reliable, but in the long run the partnership could be far better for the company.
aag01
They should partner with qualcomm, not broadcom.
Too bad it's because of the former broadcom employees within the foundation.
burnte
It's highly likely they have a sweetheart deal with Broadcom in exchange for loyalty.
undefined
deltasepsilon
Are you saying the hardware actually has encode on die but was "fused" off?
If so, Raspberry Pi has an organizational culture of outright lying, as opposed to simply speaking plainly. I know this is not Eben Upton speaking, but I've found him many times in the past being either evasive with the truth, or simply lying. It's one thing to not step of the toes of partners, or to not Osborne a product by suggesting a successor is nearing, but to be outright dishonest. Yuck.
This is very, very disappointing.
mastax
> Are you saying the hardware actually has encode on die but was "fused" off?
I don't think that is what they are saying, and I haven't seen any evidence of that. It makes the most sense to me that either (as GP said) they got rid of the H264 hardware to save on paying Broadcom for the rights to include that hardware block in the chip, or to save on the die area they take up (as RPi said), or both.
RetroTechie
Gordon Hollingworth:
"In future we’ll have to do something, but for Pi 5 we feel the hardware encode is a mm^2 too far."
Sounds reasonable, given a fast cpu & less-than optimal hw-accelerated encoding options. As for that "something", maybe:
1) Drop hw-accelerated encoding and decoding entirely, and use the freed up silicon for much beefier cpus (like ones including -bigger- vector units, more cores etc. Cortex X?). That would be useful for any cpu heavy applications.
2) Include hw encoder for a common (1), relatively 'heavy' codec. And hw decoder for same + maybe others.
3) Only include decoder(s?), like they seem to have done for RPi5.
4) Include some kind of flexible compute fabric that can be configured to do the heavy lifting for popular video codecs.
Combined with:
5) Move to newer silicon node to obtain higher efficiency or transistor budget.
Whatever route a future RPi would go, imho hw-accelerated decoding is much more useful than encoding.
ksec
HW-Decoding uses less mm2 than encoding, provides biggest power saving and benefits to user, all while being cheaper on patents.
sleepybrett
... only if the user is decoding video.
belthesar
It's fair to say that not all Pi users are decoding video, but with the number of projects doing some sort of video-related workloads, with Pi's processing camera footage and doing CV work and people using Pi's as low power workstations as just two examples, it's reasonable that folks that had historically used Raspberry Pi compute units for video are disappointed to hear that they're now pushing a lot of CPU power to perform video decode and encode.
smarx007
Which is... everyone who has ever opened a YouTube link? Though might make sense to not include it in the Zero series.
lxgr
That’s somewhat understandable, but still a bit disappointing. Not all playback devices support HEVC, and additionally HEVC will likely remain patent-encumbered much longer than e.g. H.264.
I really wish there was at least one other and open hardware-accelerated format. It’s probably a bit too early for AV1, but VP9 would work with modern iOS and Android devices, for example.
I also wonder how much licensing costs were a concern here, although past RPis had software-unlockable codecs for that exact reason.
danogentili
The rk3588 and rk3588s (i.e. orange pi 5) both support hardware H264/HEVC encoding @ 8k30fps, as well as hardware HEVC/VP9 decoding @ 8k60fps, H264 decoding @ 8k30fps, AV1 decoding @ 4k60fps.
baybal2
[dead]
smachiz
Aren't they like 4x the price too?
folmar
The boards are the same price, i. OrangePI 5 8GB costs same as Raspberry 5 8GB. At least in EU.
xyzzy123
opi5 16gb is about 130 usd, rpi5 is about 80 usd I think? You get twice the cores and RAM so I think they're comparable value. But it's sort of academic for me because rpi5 8GB is not in stock in Australia.
cogman10
Surprisingly, AV1 is easier to implement a decoder for than VP9 (by design). Some of the VP9 transforms were axed with AV1 purely to make the stream easier to decode.
Why AV1 hardware decoding has taken so long seems to be an issue with hardware manufactures not wanting to support it. HEVC and VVC seem to have more hardware support.
philistine
HEVC was built from the ground up to be implemented in hardware to stem the tide of the open-source codecs and thus keep the license money train running.
lxgr
Well, at least the newest iPhone Pro models finally support it! Apple seems to finally be coming around to the idea of non-MPEG codecs.
> HEVC and VVC seem to have more hardware support.
Yes to HEVC, but which common SoC already supports VVC? AV1 hardware support seems to be much more widespread.
gjsman-1000
They say elsewhere that the quality and usability of them did not meet what they considered reasonable for the mm^2 of die space required.
lxgr
Ah, yes, I do agree on the quality – it certainly can't compete in any way with high-quality software or dedicated encoders.
But arguably it doesn't have to; many real-time applications (e.g. surveillance cameras) have local bandwidth to spare and/or don't care too highly about quality, and compatibility with older viewing devices without re-encoding is a priority.
franga2000
If compatibility is a priority and bandwidth isn't an issue, MJPEG is still the way to go and is by far the most common encoding I see in security cameras.
its-summertime
If bandwidth ain't much of an issue, can just dump frames to a separate device for encoding, aside, Can't imagine someone using a pi 5 just for camera usage (aside from projects needing cameras)
fundatus
Last time I tried to encode a video from H.264 to HEVC (hw-accelerated) on Linux it was such a pain to get to work that I eventually gave up and simply accepted the performance hit. I'm sorry, but I'm not gonna recompile ffmpeg so that it works on my machine. Considering that most RPi-users probably use a Linux-based OS this is IMHO a sensible decision.
Levitating
Well it's not that uncommon to use a version of ffmpeg with more features enabled for a specific purpose. For instance my jellyfin server uses jellyfin-ffmpeg[0] to do hardware acceleration, even on my Pi.
lxgr
The default ffmpeg I got from Raspberry Pi OS supports hardware acceleration out of the box these days, as far as I remember.
Y_Y
For hardware acceleration it's probably easier to use gstreamer, depending on what device you are using to decode. But then you have a whole new problem.
mytailorisrich
If it is a vanilla Broadcom Soc then die space is not really their consideration or decision. But maybe it is customised for RPi?
Can't find the datasheet for the BCM2712 right now.
gjsman-1000
Well, to quote Gordon Hollingworth on the original post:
"In future we’ll have to do something, but for Pi 5 we feel the hardware encode is a mm^2 too far."
Also, Raspberry Pi Foundation and Broadcom have been really working together on successors since the... BCM2787 in the Raspberry Pi 3, if I remember correctly? Broadcom still reserves the right to sell to anyone, but the Pi is still the primary customer for those specific chips now.
undefined
rightisleft
There are a ton of pi derivatives that offer a pretty broad range of configurations. I always think of the Pi as the general consumer flagship. I was still pretty impressed with the Pi 4B... I just wish it had broader availability.
Just a handful of examples:
Banana PI M5: https://www.banana-pi.org/
Odroid C4: https://wiki.odroid.com/start
Odroid N2+: Odroid C4: https://wiki.odroid.com/start
Libre "Le Potato": https://libre.computer/
Libre "Renegade": https://libre.computer/
Orange Pi 3 LTS: http://www.orangepi.org/
Orange Pi 5: http://www.orangepi.org/
Rock Pi 4C+: https://rockpi.org/
Nano Pi M4B: http://nanopi.io/
hatthew
Yeah, there's a huge variety of SBCs that exist, most of which have a better specs/price ratio than RPi. If you buy a RPi, you're spending money on the hardware, you're spending it on the mountains of support/tutorials/standardization. I suspect that most people on HN can handle the reduced knowledge base that exists for BPi, OPi, ROCK, etc.
synergy20
Jetson Orin Nano, the new devkit from Nvidia, surprisingly does not have a hardware video encoder either, you'll need use CPU to encode video instead, which is extremely odd considering video-encoding is a common use case on lots of video applications.
Y_Y
Wow, I was shocked to see that. They don't even bother using CUDA cores to encode (less of an issue if you have unified memory like in Jetsons). Anyway it seems you can get four 1080p streams at 30fps encoded to h264 in CPU if you set it up right: https://www.ridgerun.com/post/jetson-orin-nano-how-to-achiev...
synergy20
yes but typically cpu is bad for video encoding, at least the power consumption will be much worse than hw encoder.
Shorel
So no more Nvidia NVENC?
What will OBS do then?
https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/guides/broadcasting-gui...
paulmd
Only removed from the tegras, not the gaming cards.
But yeah if you were doing OBS streaming on your jetson, then the newer hardware won't have NVENC. Normally I'd say "but nobody is doing that" but someone (was) indeed doing exactly that, lol.
https://blog.fosketts.net/2020/09/10/introducing-rabbit-i-bo...
As mentioned it's probably a ton more relevant to embedded and robotics/computer-vision use-cases, which NVIDIA is really trying to push for (automotive etc). So it's still a surprising change and will be a pain for some people.
andrewstuart
Nvidia removed the hardware encoding so you’d buy the more expensive model.
Thaxll
It's kind of crazy to not have h264 decoded by hardware in 2023, even if it's low on CPU usage nowdays, it's still by far the most used codec.
judge2020
h264 is the most available but probably not the most used. Every streaming service today either seeds AV1, VP9, or HEVC content first since it saves bandwidth[0] and every client from the past 5 years supports one of these newer formats (phones, GPUs, smart TVs, streaming boxes, etc).
0: https://www.etcentric.org/netflix-switching-from-vp9-codec-t...
lxgr
H.264 is effectively the MP3 of video today: It provides neither the best quality, nor is it patent free (yet), but if an SoC supports any hardware accleration at all, H.264 is usually on the list.
Applications/services that can afford the overhead of multiple format encoding will do so, but it's not always an option.
Avamander
Most devices can indeed most likely handle software decode of more common resolutions, codecs and bitrates. But I'd really hope they'd pick the one that won't suck up all the battery, so H264. This line of thought is supported by the fact that YouTube still provides an H264 option with most if not all videos.
With higher bitrate things, HEVC seems to grow in popularity but even software decode support is not everywhere. Netflix for example requires the installation of HEVC support on Windows to play 4K content.
Actually hardware-accelerated video decode is even spottier and more unreliable across most platforms. The JS API for codec support (canPlayType) literally returns "maybe" and "probably". It's quite bad.
So far the best compatibility I've seen has been Edge with flags on Windows (MPEG-2, H264, HEVC, AV1, VP8, VP9 with most also supporting accelerated encode). It still fails with some content (Dolby Vision P5 colors are incorrect, HEVC Rext doesn't play - more info about HEVC is available here https://github.com/StaZhu/enable-chromium-hevc-hardware-deco...). Chrome on macOS is a close second in terms of codec support.
The worst in terms of HW acceleration being all the browsers on desktop Linux-s, few and fragile combinations that offer limited and janky support. But it's slowly improving. This combined with the not-the-latest hardware many use, means things like VP9 or AV1 tend to stutter.
I'd love to see some more generic stats, but considering the APIs aren't sufficient to determine actual support, these might be difficult to gather.
But all things considered, I heavily doubt dropping H264 HW decode support was a good idea considering how often its still used.
Thaxll
It is the most used by far.
overstay8930
The largest VOD services stopped using H.264 in any meaningful way or only as a last resort, bandwidth is just too expensive to justify using it. Even phones in third world countries include VP9 and HEVC hw decode, it's rare to run into someone who can only play H.264 unless you are walking in sub-Saharan Africa.
baybal2
[dead]
supertrope
It's to save the license fee. A76 cores are fast enough to brute force H.264.
wargames
True, but hardware support does wonders for power consumption. I'm blown away that I can watch 3 hours of h264 content on my flights and only 5% of my iPad battery is used. i.e. more factors to consider than simply whether it can/can't with brute force.
rdsubhas
> I'm blown away that I can watch 3 hours of h264 content on my flights and only 5% of my iPad battery is used.
That sounds wild. Apple says iPad is rated for up to 10 hours of video playback [1]. The display alone should consume more than that.
megous
That depends on resolution and other factors.
lannisterstark
Remember you can get an HP Prodesk G3 400 or some such for $60 refurbed with far more hardware capabilities if you don't need the portable form factor, gpio, or power consumption.
It's actually a better deal for home servers.
fswd
I just bought a 10th gen i5 laptop with 16gb of ram for $60 off of ebay. HP c640 chromebook. Fast enough to run a 7B LLM at 1-2 tokens/sec
jrockway
Electricity is something you have to pay for for always-on computers:
Prodesk G3: 24 hours * 365 days * 35W * 1000W/kW * $0.30/kWh = $91
Raspberry Pi 5: 24 hours * 365 days * 12W * 1000W/kW * $0.30/kWh = $31
It's likely that 12W over-counts for the Raspberry Pi 5 and 35W under-counts for the Intel chip, so it might be even worse than this.
lannisterstark
Right, I agree, but electricity prices are variable and location dependent, for example, it doesn't cost me 30c/kwh, it's more like 5 cents and 3 cents depending on the time.
With that logic, the $20 in difference of $30 per year vs $10 per year of Pi is fairly meaningless for performance boost I am getting.
If your electricity is expensive, sure, but I imagine the performance boost would be worth it for an actual homeserver that a G3 can make vs a tinkering/fun project you can make with a Pi.
hollerith
You're comparing a CPU that became generally available in 2017 or earlier (i.e., the 7th-gen or 6th-gen Core CPU in the Prodesk G3) with a more much recent CPU.
jrockway
I didn't invite the comparison. The comment I was replying to said to buy this exact model of computer instead of a Raspberry Pi 5.
2OEH8eoCRo0
What do they idle at? I have two home servers that are essentially at idle 24/7.
xxpor
$0.30/kWh is 3x the average US price of electricity.
m463
california goes from .30 - .50 per kwh - thanks to regulatory capture and pg&e
wait...
https://www.pge.com/tariffs/Res_Inclu_TOU_Current.xlsx
I can't tell what my current rate really is, but seems like average is 38.2c/kwh
KaiserPro
the new intel m100 nuc platform chip is probably where its at.
yes its double the price, but in terms of power usage its ~4 watts at the plug at 50% load, (vs 30) and more over a million times faster.
bhouston
Is the direct competition, like the Orange Pi 5 based on the Rockchip RK3588S, differ at all in this regards?
I think that lack of choice in HW accelerated video encoding/decoding may just be standard on low-end devices in part to reduce costs.
danogentili
The rk3588 and rk3588s both support hardware H264/HEVC encoding @ 8k30fps, as well as hardware HEVC/VP9 decoding @ 8k60fps, H264 decoding @ 8k30fps, AV1 decoding @ 4k60fps.
MikusR
The other even cheaper boards even had AES acceleration for years
andrewstuart
If you want hardware video encoding check out this SBC running a latest gen AMD 7840, all the encoding inc h264, av1, hevc plus latest gen AMD GPU:
nyanmisaka
Maybe my expectations for RPi 5 are too high, but it’s hard to imagine that an SBC manufacturer known as the industry standard removed the H.264 decoder & encoder from their latest product instead of adding VP9 and AV1, causing users to go crazy when YouTube playback dropped frames. Not to mention serving up transcoded content as a media server.
Good news is that I've been playing around with its competing products. For those users who want a normal media server experience in 2023, Jellyfin will support RK3588 full hardware accelerated transcoding, includes AV1 decode, subtitle burn-in and HDR tone-mapping. (WIP https://github.com/jellyfin/jellyfin-ffmpeg/issues/34#issuec...)
gjsman-1000
I initially posted that the title did not match the content. The title is true but here’s another link to read:
https://www.raspberrypi.com/news/introducing-raspberry-pi-5/...
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I really wish they would stop making newer, faster, more expensive Pi's and just focus on making the existing Pi's cheaper and more available. Out of the dozen or so RPi's I have, not a single one is even connected to a monitor. I don't need dual 4k HDMI ports. I'd love a widely available and in-stock $20 Pi. It's like they've forgotten what the RPi is all about.