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j-pb
mzi
They also just published a blog post[0] discussing the hardware equivalent of SSPL if I get it correctly.
0: https://blog.prusa3d.com/the-state-of-open-source-in-3d-prin...
BoorishBears
Prusa really needs a PR department.
Getting your lunch absolutely eaten by some kickstarter printer in near silence, announcing the first few minutes of pre-orders for your already delayed printer will take months, near zero build up to the launch of the MK4...
And they won't even let the win from that just sizzle a bit, they need to take all that heat and dump it into the murky depths of Open Source Licensing.
gjsman-1000
It's a really, really bad look for them recently in my opinion.
The Prusa XL has been over a year and a half late. We had to preorder it, plunk down $200 as a deposit... and wait as they redesigned it over and over and blamed part shortages. Now, out of nowhere, "MK4 - Buy Now! No Preorder!"
azf1234
Apparently, they are searching for one if you’re interested haha https://www.indeed.com/m/viewjob?jk=1dc58167c527ddb8
RobotToaster
Several of those suggestions would violate the OSHW definition, a definition that was endorsed by Prusa himself: https://freedomdefined.org/OSHW
2muchcoffeeman
Thinking about it a bit more, I think Prusa is simply struggling to maintain a foot hold in the industry and remain open source. All the complaints are about the printers. But Prusa does more than just printers.
Prusa forked Slic3r into PrusaSlicer and continuously deliver great improvements and still keep it open source. If you go to the PrusaSlicer page, their github link is right there. And they support Windows, Linux and MacOS. They also attribute Alessandro on the website and the launch screen. The Prusa github also seems to have all their projects and software.
Bambu Labs forks PrusaSlicer and the github link is no where on their site and they only support Windows and MacOS On a piece of software that already had Linux support and the only acknowledge it's a fork on the github. Fortunately the github is still the 2nd link in google. But they aren't really committed to releasing their work if they won't even link to it. And their github has like 2 projects.
Prusa created printables.com to clean up the mess that is thingiverse. Creality created Creality Cloud and then just steals your models even after Naomi Wu advised them not to do that. Prusa runs competitions, has prizes.
Prusa seems to want to keep things open source, try and create a community. But like most open hardware, it's expensive relative to the competition.
As an Apple user, I completely understand the need to not mess about. But I also like to use opensource where possible. Especially for things I want to tinker with. So it's really surprising to me that what seems to be the majority of the hobbyist 3D printer community, a community that tinkers by definition, wants more closed, less repairable hardware. And more propriety software. They just want the cheapest appliance they can get for the money. I think this is what broke my brain. We started open, and could remain that way. But we'd rather not.
It's hard to fight against the might of cheap Chinese manufacturing. I hope Prusa works out a good strategy to survive before we end up in a situation where all the 3D printers requires Windows or MacOS and a login to some cloud service that I don't want.
gnramires
I believe people should be free to choose whatever license they think fits their project best, and tend to trust their judgement and goodwill.
That said, I think strongly copyleft licenses even in commercial hardware are underappreciated. Arduino is the great example: sure, it has got tons of clones. But that's kind of the point: that other people make it, and get more people using it (Arduino themselves focused on quality of their in-house produced, and also goodwill of customers). If you have it open source, people can actually copy and modify and improve it, that's the spirit -- although I'd agree it may be tough to secure enough funding from first party product sales to sustain development of the project. In that case, I'd suggest looking for a stable stream of sponsorships/donations, through platforms like patreon or liberapay. And of course, if you're a user, make sure to donate!
rhinoceraptor
These look like very solid improvements over the MK3S+ (I personally have two MK3S+, and use them a lot), and I love their commitment to open hardware and for making upgrade kits available, but it's a bit disappointing to see still how far Prusa is behind truly next-gen printers like the Bambu Lab X1-Carbon.
Symbiote
Personally, I think buying any Chinese product when an alternative exists has become unconscionable.
China's current support of Russia is an obvious issue, as well as their threats towards Taiwan and their destruction of democracy in Hong Kong.
Problems with IP infringement abound, and in this case it's particularly disappointing as Prusa is committed to open source.
I hope Prusa continue to innovate, but I also hope people reject Bambu Lab. Doing so is one of the few direct actions we can take against the Chinese principles that directly oppose Western values.
serf
You're still supporting China with a Prusa purchase.
The power supplies are built by Delta Electronics, the bearings and rods are (usually) Chinese supplied, the fans flip between China and misc SE Asia suppliers (Noctua) , the steppers are from China (LDO)... the list probably goes on.
You could make an FDM printer with exclusively American (or otherwise) parts, but the price tag is going to be astronomical.
Symbiote
I generally don't look that far into a purchase, as it's often difficult to find the information.
With Prusa, the majority of the profit is made in Czechia. The research, design, assembly and some of the manufacture is done there. I support China much less than with a purchase from a Chinese company.
Note Delta Electronics is a Taiwanese company with manufacturing in several countries including China. Noctua is an Austrian-Taiwanese company with manufacturing in Taiwan and China. LDO is Chinese, but this makes my point — how do you know those are the steppers Prusa uses? It's not written on their site.
I would like to see clear labelling on products showing their origin, perhaps including the origin of any component until the cost is <5% of the total, or something like that. Include the PSU, but don't bother about the capacitors or power cord.
jayyhu
While Prusas definitely contain Chinese parts, if your goal is to avoid buying Chinese then buying a product with a diversified supply chain is certainly preferable to buying a product that is 100% from China.
Also Delta Electronics is a Taiwanese company[1]
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inconceivable
good luck avoiding the components, materials, and packaging everyone uses that are made in china.
including the stuff made in india, malaysia, thailand, japan, singapore, indonesia, germany, usa, canada, and mexico.
i say if you want to fight for democracy, pick up a rifle and join the marines, or go work for lockheed or raytheon. our military could always use more smart people.
audunw
That's ridiculous..
There's a huge difference between supporting a product fully developed, designed and marketed from China, with Chinese companies taking all of the margins -- versus a product with various sub-components with razor thin margins supplied from China.
China is desperate to climb up from low-value, low-margin contract manufacturing to higher end work. Their rising wage levels and demographic shift demands it.
The rest of the world needs to put its foot down and say "No, you can keep taking low end contracts if you want, but if you want to move up the chain you have to grow up and act like a mature industrialized country. If you're not going to let foreign companies operate and compete on fair terms in your country, don't expect us to let your companies compete freely in our countries."
Manufacturing is already slowly moving out of China due to rising labor costs and automation. If we stop buying stuff fully owned, designed and marketed from China, the pressure will keep increasing for China to get its act together.
I mean, otherwise we might as well giving up on designing and marketing anything in the west. China will have a crazy advantage if they get to play by completely different and unfair rules, ignoring our IP laws, getting subsidized shipping on everything (since they're a "developing" country), getting to ignore quality control because returns are hopeless, getting to flood Amazon with low-quality products with fake reviews, while working from the place where all this stuff is manufactured anyway.
MPSimmons
I'm totally unfamiliar with the company that makes the Bambu, but do they have ties to the CCP or is there evidence that buying this printer would further the Chinese government's efforts?
bb88
Disclaimer: I have had my personal details stolen from by China before with the OPM hack (US security clearances). I'm pretty sure they stole my fingerprints. I guess that may make me biased...
It's not that they have ties to the CCP. It's the fact the CCP can order Bambu to give up their data without a warrant showing criminal activity.
https://thehill.com/opinion/cybersecurity/532583-for-chinese...
By bambu labs own website, they have locations in China, which means those sites are governed by Chinese law.
Symbiote
Taxes paid by Chinese businesses and residents further the goals of the Chinese government.
tcoop25
I just canceled my X1-Carbon order. Just spend some time on the Bambu Labs subreddit and you will see a lot of frustrated owners. It is insanely loud, and it seems unreliable and buggy.
I have owned a lot of printers over the years, and the only printers I, or any of my colleagues come back to are Prusa printers. They are incredibly reliable. The few times we have had issues with a part, we have been able to print a replacement. I am constantly excited by fancy new printers that all promise to be the next big thing, and stupidly keep buying them.
I will take Prusa's amazing customer support, a product I know I will be able to upgrade when they release the next iteration, and the company that has the best free software as well (the Bambu is just a forked version of Prusa's slicer).
jsjohnst
> Just spend some time on the Bambu Labs subreddit and you will see a lot of frustrated owners.
I have had mine (w/ four total AMS units) for two months now and have over 500hrs of printing so far w/ minimal failed prints. I often print in sport and/or ludicrous too. I own eight other 3D printers of various major brands (including Prusa) and it’s by far and away the best I’ve ever owned. Easily comparable to printers 2-3x more expensive imho.
> It is insanely loud, and it seems unreliable and buggy.
Even with the door open to the room mine is in, I never hear it. Sure, if you’re within 5ft of it, it is a bit loud, but not terribly so, especially if you reduce fan speeds (they have conservative defaults). If you are someone who wants to sleep next to your printer farm, maybe not a good fit, but for any normal person the noise isn’t a concern imho.
> I just canceled my X1-Carbon order.
Your loss! I’m doing the reverse, thinking about buying another one.
asveikau
> Your loss!
This reminds me of an attitude I see in some of these hobby communities. The idea that someone who is happy with a different product is somehow wrong or losing. People are highly invested and identified with their choices. Why not just be ok with choices other people make, even if we disagree with them?
bb88
The problem is going to be what happens when the <thing> needs to be serviced, whether it be a car, boat, lamp, or 3d printer. I'm glad that your experience is good -- as the way it should be with most consumer equipment.
But this comes down to basic dogfooding. Prusa dogfoods their stuff. Bambu AFAICT doesn't. Are any of the parts on the Bambu 3D printed or is everything metal and injection molded with plastic? Serious failures are going to happen at the 1/2/3 year mark.
I really don't know that answer for bambu. I do know the answer for Prusa.
I also know because Prusa open sources their designs, E3D had a platform to sell their REVO nozzles.
nickt
Just curious, while I’ve ordered various 3D printed parts, I’ve not bought a 3D printer.
What do you use 9 3D printers for?
outworlder
How easy is it to repair?
Filligree
I have a Mk3S and a Bambu X1C. The Bambu is much, much better.
The Mk4 covers most of the distance, but at a price point matching the X1C, and it's only most. Speeding it up is nice, but... pressure advance depends on detailed characteristics of the filament, such as viscosity, which varies from brand to brand and color to color.
The X1 has a lidar, which from experience actually does work as advertised. The Mk4 has... what? Prusament, maybe? I would not be surprised to find you can only get the advertised speed if you use Prusa's precalibrated filament.
Or you can print the calibration lines and do it manually. That does work; it's a ten second eyeballing procedure, simple enough for the X1 to do full auto. But you're really supposed to do that for every startup -- characteristics change as the reel ages, which doesn't even happen evenly across the entire reel -- and nobody does that.
sottol
As far as I've seend the X1s lidar is mostly useless, it's doing fine-calibration at most based on the current filament profile and seems to be inconsistent.
That's not to say that the X1 itself is - just that lidar is imho a gimick.
deelowe
Why are you comparing lidar and pressure advance? They arent related. Also, I thought the Bambu printers had pa in their firmware as well?
daniel_reetz
I own and operate two Bambu X1C with AMS for my prototyping business. They're excellent printers. Since I received them, I have practically stopped using all other printers. They are gamechangers, printing twice or three times as fast, in dramatically higher quality, in engineering materials. Second hand experience from the forum is not giving you the full picture.
slg
> Just spend some time on the Bambu Labs subreddit and you will see a lot of frustrated owners.
In my experience this is true of basically all very niche brand subreddits. People go to those subreddits to complain and/or get help. It isn't a representative sample. The people who are completely happy with their Bambu Labs machines have little incentive to spend time on a 14k user subreddit when they can go instead participant in a 1.7m user subreddit like /r/3DPrinting.
dekhn
I have two MK3S and I have to say I love them. They're simple, they work well, and I can repair basically any part on it using their documentation. The new model adds mostly refinements for people who want to do production printing.
FL410
I have both an MK3S and an X1C and the MK3S has basically been unplugged since the X1C came. I love the Prusa and I would not hesitate to recommend it, but the X1C is a generational improvement in 3d printing.
I really have no idea what you’re talking about with regard to it being loud, and I’ve had pretty much zero failed prints (at least not attributable to the printer).
aspett
Here's the thing, though: It's almost definitely a case of silent majority. The printer is pretty phenomenal and I've had excellent support from Bambu so far in New Zealand, no less.
c2h5oh
My sample size of 1: I've been using my X1 for over 3 months and in that time printed about 60-70kg of various filaments: PLA, ASA, PETG. Printer worked out of the box, required no adjustment either at start or after. The only tinkering, if you even can call it that, I've done so far was adjusting nozzle temp by 5C for one specific brand of PETG and capping print speed for silk pla (if you print it too fast it's no longer "silky"). Everything else just prints on default profiles.
If you are printing with enclosure doors closed printer noise is acceptable - I wouldn't sleep in the same room, but I can work (including taking video calls) with printer running 2.5-3m from me. Carbon filter seems to be working nicely too - my air quality monitor isn't picking much VOOCs or fine particulate.
tl;dr; I've had fewer problems with X1 than with any other printer I owned, including laser and inkjet ones.
outworlder
Disclaimer: I own an Ender 3, heavily modified.
Prusa printers are generally rock solid and their quality control is great.
For 1k, I really think we should be looking at a CoreXY machine (or, at least, something that doesn't have a bed that moves, whatever the kinematics). That's a major speed limitation, and it also causes vibrations even in lower speeds as you are moving the bed and your entire model. That's the only thing I cannot easily change in my printer, anything else, from the bed to extruders is easy to modify.
Sure the MK4 has a larger build volume. But so do many other printers.
The breakout extruder board is a nice thing but it is available for other printers too.
I like the loadcell concept for bed leveling but I wonder how much better it is versus a simple bltouch.
I really wonder who is the target demographic for this printer and why they wouldn't get other Prusa offerings instead.
> I love their commitment to open hardware
Prusa is relatively open with their hardware so it's indeed a massive bonus versus some proprietary Bambu Labs printer. However, they are the same company pushing for pre-sliced files which is a terrible idea. Not only they can be malicious, but they will also be specific to a given printer, which would benefit Prusa if most gcode is created for Prusa printers.
faeranne
> However, they are the same company pushing for pre-sliced files which is a terrible idea.
Agreed, though should be noted this happens across the industry. Whoever is the current fore-runner tends to push for it. MakerBot did the same thing back when they led the pack. Thing is, the only end Prusa can get from this is encouraging use of their printers. A shady method for sure, but MakerBot wanted to push for an entirely proprietary chain, from the model file to the printer, and because they had just gone proprietary, they could make that happen. Prusa has no legal or technical weight to make that happen (and hopefully they have no intention of going that direction). So long as they keep pushing open hardware and firmware, their push for presliced is (to me) not a deal breaker. It's wrong, and they should be called out for it, but it's not gonna lead to malicious legal action.
chubbnix
The load cell is amazing BTW. I have one on the creality CR6MAX, prusa has talked about it being sensitive enough to actually do 3d scanning of low-profile objects with it. I doubt they will implement that into the slicer but I don't doubt they can actually print that flat orange perfect first layer with it.
I agree that sharing Gcode should end as well, I understand how they thought that might be a good idea given how daunting prusaslicer is for non-techies but that wasn't a good solution.
Although Corexy is clearly a more rigid form factor I wonder if the input shaping advancements will make that bed slinging i3 seem much faster than we are expecting.
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ferminaut
I own two MK3s+'s. They are solid machines if you are looking to print PLA and some PETG. The stock extruder is a PITA. The MK4's redesigned nozzle/heat break & 10:1 extruder are basically a Bondtech LGX + Revo & should make for a great improvement.
The MMU3 seems like a marginal improvement, you still have purge towers & large buffer boxes. Hopefully the reliability out of the box has improved.
I wonder if it's too little too late for Prusa. A Voron, Ratrig, Bambu Lab printer seems like it has all these features & is CoreXY. The multi material options seem better on these options too (Enraged Rabbit Carrot Feeder, Bambu AMS).
In the case of the Voron or Ratrig, you'll load Klipper instead of the tried & tested (and outdated) Marlin.
In 2023, I am not sure I'd buy a MK4 at $1100 when you can get a Bambu for $100 more.
sircastor
I think as 3D printer enthusiasts, we focus on structure and features. The thing that I think of when I think of Prusa is reliability. For most people the most important thing about a 3D printer is that it prints. It doesn’t matter if it’s corexy or uses a Bowden tube, or the board is 32bit. And while those technologies ostensibly provide a better experience, it doesn’t really matter (for most) so long as you get thing thing you wanted to print.
For me, Bambu is too proprietary, Voron is too self-built, Ender is too unpredictable.
By current printer is self built and it works sometimes. My next printer is a Prusa.
eYrKEC2
I'm not sure about too little, too late. All the different brands are the flavor of the month ARM SBCs vs raspberry pi -- Prusa may lag in features, but at least I've heard of them, they have a community, and they're not going to disappear tomorrow like something off ali baba.
eropple
Voron and Ratrig are not going to "disappear tomorrow".
Bambu--I'm less sanguine about them, to be fair.
The Prusa XL looks tremendous and I'm very interested, but a $1100 bedslinger had better literally make you breakfast to warrant it over a $250 SV06 or Neptune 3 Pro, and the MK4 does not.
alpaca128
Voron? Apparently that takes about 30 hours of build time, that's definitely not my kind of project. I want to use the printer. Bambulabs? Looks very interesting, but it's as proprietary as it gets. With Prusa it's clear what I'm getting into.
I want to upgrade from my Prusa Mini and can't justify the cost for the XL, so the Mk4 seems like a decent choice. I'm sure people building and modding their own printers and flashing firmwares might have other favorites, but that's simply not what I buy 3d printers for.
hellweaver666
I'm in the same situation. I've been using a Prusa Mini for two years and it's a really awesome machine. I've made some tweaks along the way but I get consistent, high-quality prints in a reliable machine. I never have trouble with prints failing to stick or filament sticking or any of that stuff. I'm in the market for a bigger print bed at the moment and I want to stick with Prusa but the XL is too expensive and the MK4 seems like it might not be quite big enough for my needs. I'm looking at the Elegoo Neptune range (they have some seriously big printers that are cheaper than the Prusa Mini!). I have serious doubts about the quality though at that point... it's just too damn cheap for the size.
faeranne
I'd argue that Prusa still has value over both Voron and Bambu Lab, though that value is dependent on the user. Voron still requires significant self-assembly, as you can't buy it as a prebuilt (far as I know), and doesn't have a company directly sponsoring it (that may be a plus for some). Bambu, on the other hand, is well built, but highly proprietary, and can absolutely rug pull without warning. This puts Prusa at a perfect position for makers/tinkers/hackers. The ability to continue to self improve if one wants, without needing to if one is too busy. I'm personally not a fan of Prusa Connect, as I like having all my systems run under software I've vetted, and right now that's still OctoPrint. But the thing is, I can still absolutely get OctoPrint running on the Prusa Connect hardware. It requires some tinkering, but that's in my control. Voron requires I build everything from scratch, and Bambu requires I use only their firmware/connection app. I've got so many things already linked with OctoPrint that moving systems simply wouldn't function. I'd have to completely reset all my automation.
As for Ratrig, that might be a healthy competition, though I've never looked into the quality of parts there. I know I've sat an Ender next to my Prusa and found the price vs quality to match surprisingly well, so Prusa's not the only game, but for something I can control, while still having a company to lean on when I want to, Prusa's got a good thing going.
riceart
Agree it’s tough. The non enthusiasts that don’t give a shit and aren’t interested in a cash outlay are in the sub $500 market. Once you break that point you’re unlikely to want to save a couple hundred bucks. I would have definitely had started with the Bambu if it were available a couple years ago. If I get tired of my MK3S I would be highly unlikely to upgrade to a Prusa.
anamexis
It seems like an odd place in Prusa's own product line-up.
I have a Prusa MINI+, which for $450 gets you a great printer. The print volume on the MK3 and now MK4 is just not that much better - 180x180x180 for the MINI, 250x210x220 for the MK4.
If I wanted to upgrade and wanted to stick with Prusa, MK3/MK4 wouldn't come into the picture, I'd go straight to the Prusa XL.
dividedbyzero
I have a Mini too, and I could see myself get a MK4 as the Mini has been a bit of a disappointment. The X and Y axes on mine aren't 90° and there seems to be no hardware adjustment (just a rigid printed part), no support for software adjustments either (the respective GCode is disabled in firmware), so I can't print proper rectangles, just parallelograms, and any boxes and lids I print never fit properly. I want to keep tinkering to a minimum (that's why I got a Prusa), and I can make do with goskew and preprocessing the gcode, but I found I have to repeat callibration quite often and it's a fairly annoying process and not very exact and means I can't reuse gcode files at a later date, so having a printer that doesn't have this defect would be very welcome.
My Mini also likes to ram the nozzle into the build plate once in a while without any of it's safeties triggering, heating element stuck on and the Z stepper fully engaged, so I can't let it run unsupervised either, and the filament sensor is pretty hit and miss as well. I may have had bad luck with my unit (I ordered right at release), but I'm definitely looking for something more reliable and, frankly, less dangerous.
The Prusa Mk4 does look like a solid hands-off machine and hopefully they didn't cut corners there like with the Mini, and hopefully customer support is also better for the more expensive ones. I don't have any use for the XL's feature set (I only print relatively small parts and not that many), but I didn't want to get a Mk3s as it's been pretty dated for a long time now. I'll wait a bit until other people have had a chance to run into any major flaws though.
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sydd
Is it really? I've looked at the Bambu Lab printer and while on paper it looks nice I would be very hesitant to buy it, their "advanced" features not that convincing:
- IMO multi material printing has always been a buggy gimmick (mostly multi material setups are very prone to failure).
- Them advertising that the printer can print "advanced" materials like PC is a gimmick too, the main issue with FDM printers is layer adhesion and no matter what material you are using its going to suck compared to injection molding.
- bashing bed slingers is wrong too, they have their advantages compared to CoreXY setups (mostly simpler mechanics)
IMO FDM printers have 2 main issues:
1. Unreliable due to lots of moving parts. A solid design with quality components mostly mitigates this.
2. Layer adhesion sucks limiting possible applications. Some very innovative non-planar printing could be a solution but it does not exist yet. Or could be solved by printing metal, but these devices are far from home use.
Resin printers solve both issues, but bring their own (mostly that resins are very toxic stuff that you dont want in your home.)
So no, this printer is in no way revolutionary (neither is the Prusa). Until both of these issues are solved home 3D printers will be mostly used to print benchies and accessories for tabletop games.
eropple
> - IMO multi material printing has always been a buggy gimmick (mostly multi material setups are very prone to failure).
Agreed, with the asterisk that this applies more to multi-feeders (Prusa's MMU, Bambu's AMS) rather than IDEX. Which is where Prusa's going with the XL, and I'm excited about it.
> - Them advertising that the printer can print "advanced" materials like PC is a gimmick too, the main issue with FDM printers is layer adhesion and no matter what material you are using its going to suck compared to injection molding.
Flag on the play: sweeping generalization, ten yard penalty, repeat second down.
PC printing is really handy for intrinsically bespoke things like tools in the wood shop. I don't need an injection-molded run of them--but nobody's selling things I can buy that address problems in the way I want to.
> - bashing bed slingers is wrong too, they have their advantages compared to CoreXY setups (mostly simpler mechanics)
This is an effectively solved problem with modern motion system controls. CoreXY on Marlin might be a mess, but CoreXY on Klipper is clean. Aside from cost of development and manufacture, I don't understand developing new bedslingers except for cost...and the MK4 costs $1100.
sydd
> PC printing is really handy for intrinsically bespoke things like tools in the wood shop.
Can you name some examples? As a hobbyist woodworker I've used my 3D printer to print router templates where PLA was fine enough for the task.
> Aside from cost of development and manufacture, I don't understand developing new bedslingers
Another reason is that bedslingers are good enough for most users. If you dont try to print 30cm high columns with 300mm/s a simple bedslinger will do. I've printed my best minis with a slightly modded Ender 3 and I have a pretty high end CoreXY printer. I could tune the CoreXY one too to be on par with quality but for such stuff bedslinger vs CoreXY doesnt matter
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2muchcoffeeman
>bashing bed slingers is wrong too, they have their advantages compared to CoreXY setups (mostly simpler mechanics)
Tangent: why was moving the bed the solution over having X and Y on independent axes? I’ve always wondered. Cost and initial reliability?
eropple
Cost is part of it. If you look at bed-dropper printers (the Ender 5 or the Sovol SV05), there's just more metal involved. Metal is expensive. It's also heavy, so your shipping costs go up.
It's also a simpler set of kinematics for the system to deal with. Most 3D printers have pretty dumb microprocessors (value engineering!) at their core. CoreXY printers use two steppers to execute any movement, and that requires more calculations. Delta printers use three steppers to execute any movement, even.
More modern printers run Klipper, which offloads the kinematic calculations to a single-board computer, and that addresses a lot of the problems you run into. Klipper also helps with bedslinger kinematics too, though, as it has the headroom to do some forward-looking optimization. The current state of printers is pretty cool.
deelowe
Being able to print pc isn't a gimmick. They point this out because it's one of the hardest filaments to print. PC isn't used a ton by hobbyists but it is extremely popular in industry.
treesciencebot
Indeed. I always thought they deferred the launch of any new model after X1C in order to take the true "just works" crown back (with the hopes of it would be something like Intel/AMD feuds where the monopoly had finally came to an end and customers can finally see some real competition). But apparently it is just a classic Prusa printer with better parts but still a very very high price to usability ratio (compared to Bambu Lab P1P or X1).
f38zf5vdt
It's a proprietary versus open source argument. You can build a mk4 clone for much less than the price of a Prusa-branded one, as everything is open source. The higher price tag is like a donation to open source.
Prusa also makes the open source XL if you want an CoreXY model, or you could go with a Voron which is also open source.
treesciencebot
> It's a proprietary versus open source argument. You can build a mk4 clone for much less than the price of a Prusa-branded one, as everything is open source. The higher price tag is like a donation to open source.
I would say the higher price tag is more like "Prusa" using its name as a quality assurance system where if you want to get something working without much hassle (since nearly every other mk4/mk3s clone that has been out there really really sucks except the ones from Prusa) you have to pay the premium.
This is not to say they are necesarrily doing a bad job on open sourcing or abusing, but just a mark that "open source hardware" doesn't necessarily benefit the customer as much as "real world features".
2muchcoffeeman
I don’t know why this is being down voted. Prusa are trying to make an open source hardware company work and I guess this is what it looks like.
There is so much noise on HN about repairability. Well here is some open hardware And it’s ”the Chinese printers have so much more features!”
kramerger
Thats an odd analogy.
Prusa loves open source and maker mentality. Just look at PrusaSlicer and Printables.
rhinoceraptor
This seems like a bit of a stop-gap since the Prusa XL seems to be taking longer to get going than expected, I would hope their plan is to totally rearchitect around the Prusa XL design and scale that down to the 250mm^3 size class.
They are still very good machines, but I would have a hard time recommending anyone get an i3 style printer when the advantages of CoreXY are so obvious, and particularly because the price gap between the X1C is not very big.
LeafItAlone
> how far Prusa is behind truly next-gen printers like the Bambu Lab X1-Carbon
Can you expand on this?
rhinoceraptor
The biggest disadvantage in my mind of the Prusa MK2/3/4 printers is they use the original i3 design. It's a good design, and very simple to build, maintain and program. But it limits the print speed due to the amount of mass that has to move, particularly in the Y axis. The entire bed has to move which induces vibrations at higher speeds.
Newer printers (including the Prusa XL) use a CoreXY design, where the extruder is controlled in the X and Y axes by belts, which results in less mass that has to move, and allows the printer to print much, much faster. In the case of the Bambu Lab printers, it can be two to three times faster for a similar print quality.
eropple
CoreXY printers absolutely do have more stable kinematics for better acceleration, but modern open printer firmware--mostly Klipper, though you can do it with Marlin in an unsatisfying way--implements resonance compensation, aka input shaping, in a way that really improves acceleration (which matters way more than top speed for most prints).
My Sovol SV06 can make a really nice-quality 3DBenchy in 37 minutes after doing my input shaping samples. That's not as fast as an X1 Carbon, but it cost a quarter as much, and I tend to think that when it comes to 3D printers that bandwidth is more valuable than latency.
bboygravity
I'll take the slower printer speed if it means I get better reliability, repeatability and repearability. Any day.
I've wasted enough hours on fancy features/materials/settings that don't work. Couldn't care less about the feature of being able to print a part a few minutes/hours faster tbh.
imtringued
The printer is on par with dirt cheap Chinese competitors like Sovol.
pregseahorses
I know it is anecdotal, but I have been tinkering with 3d printers for over a decade, and Bambu Lab to everything else is like ChatGPT to Stack Overflow. It is just unbelievably reliable.
syntaxing
I've been always a huge fan of Prusa and always wanted one (just haven't for various reasons, not so much financial related). But this feels too little too late. Bambulabs is absolutely eating the market and I would be sweating if I were Prusa Research. It sucks since Bambulabs is using their slicer and a lot of Prusa's technology as a foundation. But most of the people I know have decided to skip waiting for the XL or MK4 and jumped for the X1C instead. No joke, the past purchases in the past 4 months or so from my circle of friends and peers have all been the P1P or X1C.
Edit: Also, its 799 for the kit you can't buy now compared to 699 for the P1P that you can buy today and literally prints out of the box.
operatingthetan
>It sucks since Bambulabs is using their slicer and a lot of Prusa's technology as a foundation.
Prusa's slicer is just a fork of Slic3r so I'd say that's fair play. Prusa just aggressively brands opensource stuff.
reaperman
> Prusa just aggressively brands opensource stuff.
I mean, they fork it, develop it further, and give it back to the community. That's entirely within the spirit of open source!
"Aggressively branding open-source stuff" would be like Chinese Alibaba sellers ripping off open hardware or Amazon redistributing PostgreSQL as an AWS SaaS offering.
operatingthetan
I figured someone would take issue with that, I guess my problem is they don't do a great job of attribution.
wakeupcall
It's not just a fork with rebranding though. The development done on top of slic3r are genuinely huge. And you can use this fork for any printer too (and plenty of people do).
It's nice to pay for actually open development.
StephenSmith
Having messed with 3D printers since before the iPhone came out, I can confidently say My MK3 is the best printer I've owned in terms of value. I can only imagine that they've improved upon this story with the MK4.
tagh
I'm relatively new compared with you, but I've also found my MK3S+ to be super solid and output high quality stuff. I previously had a da Vinci Pro, and my best metaphor is that using the MK3S+ is like writing with a new pencil vs. one full of broken lead.
sho_hn
So I would really like to get into 3D printing, but I struggle with discomfort over the health implications. I live in a small rented apartment and can't easily work out space or, much more importantly, external venilation. Yes, I've looked into PLA vs. ABS, I've looked into enclosures with carbon/HEPA filters, etc., but I still don't want to have it in my living space without a vent to the outdoors.
Here's the best I can come up with: A well-insulated enclosure with a filter ... on the balcony, with internal heating and PID temp control. Maybe some thing for humidity control as well. Thoughts? Any good off-the-shelf enclosure products that would fit an Ender S1 Pro or a Prusa MK3/4?
latchkey
Box around the printer with a vent/fan blowing outside. It'll be negative pressure in the box, so everything should just vent out. Even if you can just crack a window and get the airflow going out the window... you can push a flexible tube far out onto your balcony...
levpopov
This is the best way. Inline duct fan and a flex hose running out of your window (you can print an adapter/connector to fit perfectly). It works very well even if your enclosure is not airtight (and it shouldn't be when printing PLA since you want a constant stream of air getting inside for cooling) - just let negative pressure do its thing.
sho_hn
It may seem super silly or I'm just somehow dumb, but the "run a hose to your balcony" is the difficult part for me. That means having a door open for 10+ hours at a time, which is a climate control challenge for the room.
That's why I figured: Why not put the entire enclosure on the balcony, and then heat-humidity control the inside of it? Sure, more complex system and higher power draw, ... but maybe there's whole kits for this? Like, for keeping a 3D printer in a windy shed?
numpad0
Kind of depends on ventilation setup in your house, some houses/condos are built to draw air through windows and out through fans with high static pressures, in which case trying to vent out don't work that well.
I tried it with SLA printer and it just filled the room with resin stinks for days. It really depends...
LordHeini
My FDM printer is not stinky enough to cause a big problem (might be still unhealthy though).
But i recently got a resin printer and that thing lives in the bathroom now beside the washing machine. It has build in ventilation through a coal filter but the stench is just awful.
In a pinch Bathrooms are not the worst place for printers because they have ventilation and are not in use most of the day.
Just don't store your filament in the same room since it might get wet from the showers steam.
Although this might have a very low WAF, so check with your better half if applicable :)
thelazyone
>But i recently got a resin printer and that thing lives in the bathroom now beside the washing machine. It has build in ventilation through a coal filter but the stench is just awful.
It's also worth noting that the smell varies considerably between different kinds of resin. having a dedicated space is optimal, but with the right materials it's farily manageable, especially if you're not planning to run it 24/7.
LordHeini
I use water washable resin because it is super convenient. It is supposedly not that bad smell wise. But I find it still unbearable.
The printer is used to print the occasional tabletop model and stuff if it where in use all day I would try to get a better solution
precompute
If you can shell out a little more, you might be able to print a Nevermore filter[1] and use activated carbon to filter VOCs, provided your printer is enclosed.
You could also buy a Bambu Labs P1P, which is fully enclosed, or build a Voron. There's also the Creality Sermoon V1, but with chinese printers you always have to replace / upgrade the parts, so they're really not that cheap in the long run.
bmitc
Just a note that the P1P does not come fully enclosed. You need to either print your own sides or buy them from someone. I don't think Bambu Lab even sells them, and even then they are just side panels and don't include the front. The Bambu Lab X1 Carbon comes fully enclosed, however. It is one of the main reasons that I am considering just going for the X1 Carbon. If the P1P had a fully enclosed option, I would go for it.
precompute
Thanks for the correction, I wrote that post off the top of my head. I definitely meant the X1, that's the printer I had in mind.
And anyway, if you're printing PLA you shouldn't do it in a completely closed enclosure, the temperature would be too high (or so I've read). Even the Sermoon V1 has cutouts for a small vent at the back. Even the Vorons aren't fully enclosed, although there's the Box-Zero[1] addon that does fully enclose the printer.
newaccount74
I worried about the same thing, and decided to print only PLA and PETG and print without enclosure. The printer is in the living room, and I just close the doors to the bedrooms and open the windows in the morning to let fresh air in.
I think it's questionable how much those tiny filters help anyway. If you print a lot, you would have to constantly swap filters, if you don't print a lot, it doesn't really make that much of a difference.
When I want to print ABS, I go to a Makerspace and use their Ultimaker.
foxylad
If you are OK with a 180mm build space, grab a Prusa Mini. Very quiet, fits in a cupboard, just works.
For me, ventilation isn't required for PLA. The smell is minimal and not unpleasant, and I often print (in a cupboard) while working two metres away.
hirundo
I would be as concerned about the health implications of the sound. The constant background noise adds to the baseline stress level of the environment, and it's difficult not to intersect printing and sleep schedules.
So I recently moved mine from the middle my medium sized house to the far end from the bedroom, behind a door. And even with that I'm considering enclosing it in a cabinet, to reduce the noise on that side of the house too. Yet the model I have is not particularly loud.
Symbiote
The Mk3S (so presumably the Mk4) has a silent mode, which cuts down the noise significantly. I have mine on a 5cm×25×25cm paving slab which also helps avoid vibrations.
With a closed door between my bedroom and the printer at night, it's no problem.
nvahalik
You may be able to get by with a regular air filtration system. Not sure where you are, but I have a Rabbit Air[0] that is very good at removing smells has multi-layer filtration.
Also, buying good quality filament is important. You want stuff that isn't made in China.
codyv
Prusa does have an official enclosure but I'm not sure of its MK4 compatibility. https://www.prusa3d.com/product/original-prusa-enclosure-3/
Lukas_Skywalker
It is compatible:
> MK4 is fully compatible with the Original Prusa Enclosure.
Francis2023
Replaced all 25 MKS3+ machines with 15 Bambu P1Ps and 5 Bambu X1C's about 2 months ago. Sold the last Mks3+ yesterday.
They Print 3 Times faster than the MKS3+ with same or better quality in some prints. 24/7 printing almost with zero issues in my print farm. BVery easy to send jobs to it from the Bambu slicer based on the Prusa slicer which is open source and enhanced to make complicated print jobs spread across multiple virtual print beds a beautiful thing!
At this point i see ZERO reason to consider a MK4. Bambu hit this out of the ball park and into the neighbouring city as far as I am concerned.
gjsman-1000
Prusa mentions in their articles about how China slowly appropriated solar panel designs, beat domestic companies on cost, and now all solar panels are made in China. And that, they hope, they can avoid this for 3D Printers in particular because Chinese companies do not have a good track record for following open-source licenses promptly.
However, I see all this and think, man... Prusa, you were 2 years too late on the XL and the MK4. And it's going to hurt the Prusa marketshare immensely.
postalrat
You created an account just to say you aren't going to buy something?
capableweb
On top of that, they are throwing shade at a machine that's not even on the guest list, totally swerving into the wild world of off-topic shenanigans!
JofArnold
> At this point i see ZERO reason to consider a MK4
Prusas are user serviceable with lots of spare parts available. Bambus are far from that and if there's a problem with the design (e.g. ghosting) you're out of luck for as long as it takes them to fix it.
I don't have a Prusa (I have a VzBot). Just saying there's far from zero reasons.
dhlavaty
https://blog.prusa3d.com/the-state-of-open-source-in-3d-prin... highly recommend to read this first
latchkey
It'll be interesting to watch the Aurora Tech review when it comes out. Curious to see how she likes it.
rcarmo
Yep. We enjoy her reviews a lot.
jwr
The only reviewer worth watching IMO.
xnx
Would someone explain what is notable about this? I'm not familiar enough with the 3D printer space to know what new features and capabilities are developing.
asadjb
Most of the listed features are incremental updates over the previous model; the MK3. However, as someone who's been using 3D printers for about 3 years, I'd say the biggest improvement here is the automatic first layer calibration.
Until recently (most notably until the Bamboo Labs Carbon X1) you had to spend time setting up your printer to get a good first layer. This would involve changing the distance between the nozzle that lays out the melted plastic and the bed on which the model is printed. Because this distance varies not just between different units of the same printer, but also has to change based on what material (PLA, PETG, etc) you're printing with, it needed some knowledge to set correctly.
While that process did get much simpler (with most of it being automated), it still involved some tweaking on the part of the user. That's a problem for people who are new 3D printing. It meant that you couldn't start printing immediately after unboxing your printer. It also meant that you had to spend considerable time (a few hours at least in my case) figuring out what a "good first layer" means, and then tweaking your printer to print the first layer well.
With this update, you can now start printing immediately after unboxing your printer (after some minor assembly), which is a huge thing for people who are new to 3D printing.
When I got my first printer a few years ago, I remember having to spend a couple of hours initially learning how to do this calibration, and I didn't get great results until a few more weeks of learning and tweaking.
Note that this is from the perspective of a hobbyist. People using 3D printers on a commercial scale might find the other improvements to be a big thing for their use case.
xnx
That's a great explanation. Thank you!
zokier
Its more just a brand thing, Prusa was one of the early big names in (hobbyist) 3d printing scene. I don't think this printer coming from any other brand would have reached the front page
precompute
This is the truth. Prusa used to be in front of the line a couple of years ago, but since then they've dropped the ball and other manufacturers have caught up. And with much better open-source alternatives like Voron printers, very few people are ready to shell out money for Prusa printers. Plus, there's a big fanboy community around this brand, a lot of which might just be genuine shills (maybe not here on HN, but they do exist on reddit).
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wellthisisgreat
It’s the one FDM 3D printer worth buying that is being cloned and copied with so-so results by Chinese companies.
Unlike Ender etc., Prusa is the true “just works” FDM printer
sokoloff
I do recommend Prusa to new 3D printing hobbyists because there are a lot of quality of initial experience features on them.
That acknowledged, my (lightly modded) Ender3s, a Flashforge Creator clone, and an SKTank kit-built printer all also “just work” and, other than capability differences, use the same machine settings in slicer/same gcode thanks to Klipper macros (to the point that I’ll often start a print on them in the basement without ever going down there and checking that the first layer looks okay). I’d say I’m well above 97% for prints work without any fuss.
synack
New electronics (AVR upgraded to STM32)
Lighter, stronger, faster extruder
Easier to swap/maintain hotend
Faster and more automated bed leveling
Better stepper motors
rcarmo
I have a Prusa MK2 clone that I recently revived with Klipper firmware, a cheapo Kingroon MK3S Pro that I bought to tweak a bit, and have been looking at getting a Bambu Labs or building a Voron - and either of those seems like a better investment than the MK4 if you can build and tweak the printer yourself.
But the key thing is that the Bambu (and other upcoming Core XY printers) are aimed at the non-modding market and seem to be a much better deal overall, so I'm not sure what Prusa is going for here other than leveraging brand traction...
bittercynic
I think they appeal to a different crowd.
I built a Prusa kit, and enjoyed building it, and enjoy printing with it. I consider it a bit of a hobby product, and wouldn't recommend it to someone who isn't interested in learning anything about 3d printing. It works great, but you have to take an interest in it.
For the person who just wants a consumer product, I suspect the Bambu might be the best option.
JofArnold
Better deal by some measures, but definitely not part quality. Far from it. My equally-priced VzBot kit has much better quality components in every area right down to the screws.
That said, if I put a price on my time I think the X1C would be 1/10th the cost :D
polishdude20
How is the Bambu a better deal? All I'm seeing is a $1500 printer. Is there some other model?
rcarmo
Even the more expensive models are (arguably) better than the prusa due to being core xy
zokier
From outsider perspective (fdm) 3d printers plateaued relatively quickly; while the speed improvement is undoubtedly nice for heavy users, even at 3x speed I don't know if it is really transformative. Meanwhile the print quality hasn't changed really that much afaik? Of course being more reliable and less fiddly are certainly good improvements but I don't see them being transformative or making 3d printing conquer new areas.
mitthrowaway2
The main FDM 3D printer patents expired at around the time the first iphone came out. I've been involved with them since those early days. If you ask me, the pace of improvement in usability, quality, reliability, and functionality of 3D printers has been as good if not better than smartphones. And it continues today. These upgrades in first-layer sensing and nozzle exchanges are a bigger relative improvement than the incremental increase in smartphone camera resolution. And the ecosystem of filament suppliers, G-code slicers, and 3D models available for download for people who don't want to do their own CAD has also grown.
Reliability is a huge, huge deal. Back in 2009 we were dealing with constant nozzle jams, delamination from the print bed, print errors, drifting, ooze, extruder slip, and all sorts of other problems. You had to keep a constant eye on the printer, and manually tweak the G-code generation parameters to get good results. It's come a long way and still going.
Filligree
One of the things you can do with higher speeds is use a smaller nozzle, which translates directly to higher visual quality.
There’s also constant improvements to the algorithms; what can be printed in the first place. To name one, it used to be that anything above a 25 degree overhang would cause problems…
These days 60 degrees isn’t too bad, and there are experimental algorithms that can handle 90. Support algorithms have also improved dramatically lately, so we’re pretty close to the point where any and all geometries will just work.
ferminaut
If you are designing something, being able to rapidly iterate is great. The difference is 4-5 prints a working day vs 1-2 prints a day.
JofArnold
The speed is far more important than immediately obvious. To be able to iterate on the scale of minutes and hours and not hours and days is a game-changer. Imagine how productive a programmer would be if their compiler used to take 1.5 hours every time they saved something and it now took 10 minutes.
tdiggity
This is so true. My iteration time for printed parts has gone down from 4 hours to 1 hour with the faster speeds. At first, I couldn’t iterate fast enough to keep up. I can pump out a few revisions in a day or play with several concepts in little time. It’s a great time to be get into 3d printing.
deelowe
> Meanwhile the print quality hasn't changed really that much afaik?
Several of the features in the MK4 are for quality (but also help speed). For example, VFA steppers are purely for quality improvement.
gjsman-1000
Nice - but it's been over a year and a half since preorders for the Prusa XL began and it still has not shipped!!!
It is clear now that people who preordered the Prusa XL had availability sacrificed for the MK4. It just sucks if you've been waiting more than 18 months for that, only for the MK4 to get day-one availability before your long-awaited preorder.
throwawayprusa
They are drowning in cash but only hiring cheap, mediocre engineers. When they manage to hire enthusiasts, they either burn them out or leave them to their own devices without unifying vision or structure - as long as the owners like them. The culture is pure nepotism.
Also, people who manufacture the printers are paid peanuts and are managed super strictly.
Also, XL was announced because they were "feeling like they were not releasing for too long". Not because they felt inspired. Then they literally slept on it for a year.
Don't expect anything special from them.
Source: know people inside and from the relevant social circle.
lardo
Do you have any insight into why Josef Prusa's name and face is plastered over every square inch of everything they produce?
microtherion
I don't think that's quite correct, according to Prusa, the XL has started shipping to customers two weeks ago, though presumably still in low numbers: https://blog.prusa3d.com/the-state-of-open-source-in-3d-prin...
I'm not super happy about the wait myself, but the XL is a considerably more complex beast, and I'd rather see them getting it right than sacrificing quality to meeting some self imposed deadline.
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Really nice to see steady incremental improvements to an already solid platform! It's small stuff like no longer having to manually Z-Adjust, and having the print-head connected via easy to undo/replace connectors, that seem like small things but are huge time- and nerve-savers when it comes to actually running these things in production.
Crazy to see how far Prusa has come with his stuff, I still remember sitting and laughing in a hacker-space with him a couple years ago. He is one of the few people that actually stuck to the open-source rep-rap philosophy even after success (fun fact: he has a tattoo of the open hardware logos to remember his roots).