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janniks
alin23
In case you or anyone else needs to disable the MacBook screen and still use the mic, camera, keyboard, trackpad etc. I added a feature called BlackOut in my Lunar app that can do that (https://lunar.fyi/#blackout).
This allows "clamshell mode" without closing the lid. (although some people might want to close the lid for desk aesthetics, this feature is not for them)
On Apple Silicon with macOS Ventura the feature can really disconnect the screen by Command-clicking the power button: https://shots.panaitiu.com/x52NJxpR
There's also a write-up on how I reverse engineered this feature: https://alinpanaitiu.com/blog/turn-off-macbook-display-clams...
On older systems, BlackOut mimics a disconnect by setting the screen to 0 brightness and mirroring it to avoid windows getting trapped there.
Firmwarrior
haha, that was a really interesting writeup. It looked a lot like the process I end up following when I try to reverse engineer something
The whole way through I kept wondering "Wow, I wonder how he's going to tie this all together in the end!" .. and then I got to the end
cscharenberg
This is incredible software. Thank you for linking to it. It has features I've long wished for in a laptop!
crazygringo
The microphone is located inside the left speaker grille anyways, so it would be terribly muffled in clamshell mode anyways.
Note this is in contrast to previous models where the microphone had a tiny hole on the left edge (next to USB-C ports) and it could be used in clamshell mode.
Which at first I thought felt like a downgrade... but the reality is that your laptop isn't usually in a good position for mic pickup when it's closed anyways -- people often keep it off to the side or something, under a monitor riser, etc. While the speaker grille location, being front-facing rather than side-facing, is far better for picking up voice when using the laptop normally. And that anybody using a mic in clamshell mode usually already has one in their webcam or AirPods or headset or a dedicated mic anyways.
So all in all it seems to work out pretty well.
bilekas
The 2015 pro model i have is an absolute nightmare for the fan as the mic was picking up the noise of the fan and so the CPU was working overtime to cancel the noise leading to cascading fan and heat noise.
Ended up just disabling it completely permanently. Was a particularly bad design i think.
rezonant
I recently got an M2 Macbook Pro to replace my 2017 Macbook Pro (with that awful keyboard and the touch bar), and my biggest take away is that I'm glad Jony Ive left. The new one is less "elegant", but it approaches and in some case exceeds "functional". It's crazy the number he did on the hardware designs at the end.
j45
I have leaned on the clamshell mode mic from time to time as well.
Tbh getting a simple but high quality mic has been nice.
It picked up a Steelseries Tusk.
It was the highest recording quality I could find for in ear headphone with a small boom mic for the dollar.
Easy to leave one each in my bag and desks if I like it. I’m considering finding a way to use the mic only.
It doesn’t hurt to be the clearest sounding person by a long shot on most calls.
https://www.amazon.com/SteelSeries-Tusq-Mobile-Gaming-Headse...
https://www.rtings.com/headphones/reviews/steelseries/tusq .. the recording quality section is of interest.
philsnow
> The microphone is located inside the left speaker grille anyways, so it would be terribly muffled in clamshell mode anyways
I don't think the hardware disable is meant as a UX convenience ("let's always disable it in clamshell mode because it sounds terrible"), as that could have just been done in software. It's meant for people privacy-conscious people who want to see a closed laptop and be able to assume it's not recording.
Meanwhile, I'm looking at this throwaway aside in the article:
> (The camera isn’t disconnected in hardware, because its field of view is completely obstructed with the lid closed.)
and thinking to myself that somebody is going to figure out how to record audio given just the "completely obstructed" view of the camera.
There's a long history of attackers reliably detecting logging keys with audio using just inter-keystroke latency and some histograms, or easily figuring out PINs tapped out on a phone screen because the OS doesn't bother putting access to accelerometers or gyroscopes behind an app permission. Attackers get very creative, especially when they're told that something is "impossible".
zamnos
Recording sound from a video-only device that has been covered, with no hardware modifications would be a really really neat trick! Using Van Eck phreaking against all sorts of hardware is fascinating to me. FM radio broadcast from how RAM gets accessed and things like that. Maybe noise in the camera sensor can be used to pick up noise from the microphone on the motherboard (which is where the microphone is on Apple Silicon devices). I'm not going to say it's impossible, but it seems highly unlikely given everything else in play.
__MatrixMan__
> There's a long history of attackers reliably detecting logging keys with audio using just inter-keystroke latency and some histograms
I wrote some fiction about this. The cosmic microwave background is hiding an audio signal. It's the sound of a keyswitch. Humanity uses the radio astronomy equivalent of these techniques to discover which keystroke caused the big bang.
prettyStandard
Can confirm with my older MacBook that anytime I try to use the microphone with the lid closed people always complain.
samstave
>>"Apple silicon-based Mac"
What does "silicon-based" - mean? What other computer is not 'silicon-based'?
--
Is there a way to mechanize the HW detachment of microphone connections at will while using the machine open?
That would be great - if you had a physical switch on the side of machine, which physicall moves the mic wire a mm away from the contact.
---
Weird thing - I put tape over my webcam at all times, unless in use, obv.
After some time I received a pop-up alert on windows 11 and it lasted briefly, and went away - but freaked me out: "You should unblock your webcam" or something to that effect, I dont have the exact wording - but it was an alert telling me to unblock visibility of my webcam - I think it may have mentioned something about UX reasons - but it happened so quick I missed all the wording.
Yeah - tape over your cams.
----
It would be cool to have a phone case where is the case screen-facing-flap is closed, it pulls the wool over the eyes of the front-facing cams, so even in 'sleep' mode when the case is closed, the phones cams are all covered... but the mic is a different creature.
------
Remember when NSA was intercepting cisco equipment to install HW back doors in devices shipped to 'enemy' states.
We have known forever about NSA HW backdoors...
but a case that can manipulate the HW MIC switchoff mechanism of a phone with such capability would be cool.
Else ; we need 100% trustworthy ability to disable our Spy-Pilots.
sirsar
> >>"Apple silicon-based Mac" > What does "silicon-based" - mean? What other computer is not 'silicon-based'?
Read as (Apple silicon)-based.
samstave
Thank you. Wasn't aware.
hoosieree
Silicon-based, not to be confused with those nice vintage germanium-based Apple products from the '60s.
dheera
And how are we supposed to trust Apple that this is in fact what's happening?
With a Framework laptop I have a hardware physical switch and I can actually open it up and see the PCB trace and verify that it disconnects the microphone.
zamnos
At the point that you're opening up the laptop and chasing traces, you can do the same thing with Apple devices (with a bit more difficulty). It's not like they're made with rainbows and moonbeams. If you're at that level of paranoia (no judgement if it's justified or not) and have the skill to, just open up the Apple device and chase PCB traces. If you go down that route, iFixit's a good resource with lots of helpful pictures. (But still sometimes not enough.)
dheera
If it's in-chip, it won't be with PCB traces, it would be solid state inside the chip and you wouldn't be able to verify without inspecting the wafer, which is way outside my area of expertise. It doesn't sound like there's a mechanical relay that they are using for this.
There's also that if it's inside the chip, there is a risk that malicious software or buggy firmware can still enable it against your permission.
With a Framework laptop you can peel back the bezel and it's right there in plain sight. If the switch is in the off position it's a hard physical break to the microphone circuit. There is no possible software that can enable the microphone.
ademup
I would really like to know why this comment was down voted. It is a perfectly valid question with a rational explanation. Indeed, I was surprised to have needed to scroll down so far to find it, as it was the very first question that popped into my head as well.
dheera
A lot of my comments get downvoted these days. Sometimes the mods even side with the downvoters and ask me to stop. If they ban me, oh well, their loss.
raxxorraxor
I think this is nothing else than Apple being a difficult topic again.
sixothree
People are willing to put their love of Apple products over their values for open and verifiable hardware.
kaba0
Hardware physical switches are a gimmick feature - if you can’t trust your OS to that degree, then you surely have bigger problems than your microphone.
dheera
Of course I can never trust a closed source OS like MacOS.
Linux is a little better. But it's not just the OS. I might be in a Google Meet call where I have given microphone access, but can I trust the mute button? I'd rather have a physical mute.
r00fus
Just use a headset or external mic. If you're in clamshell you're probably at your desk/home office so that's quite reasonable.
Also nice - if I'm WFH and one of my family walks in with some drama, I close the lid, go clamshell mode, and I am quite sure any corporate spyware isn't listening in.
dividedbyzero
I wish there were good quality webcams without microphones. My external microphone has a mute switch but my Streamcam mic is still available to any corporate spyware.
reductum
I wish the same. In the meantime, I like using these physical USB switches to easily disconnect my webcam when not in use: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07X82661H
dclowd9901
Lid sensors? Why didn’t they just have a hinge that the wiring ran through that disconnects at a certain angle…
sixothree
I assume clamshell mode would affect heat dissipation through the keyboard.
fsflover
The correct solution would be to have a hardware kill switch for the microphone (and camera). This is exactly what Purism laptops offer.
kube-system
When it comes to privacy, for the vast majority of users, sane defaults are better than requiring the user to take manual action.
victor106
Exactly!!!
This might seem like I am an Apple fanboy but I am not, I have plenty issues with Apple products but when it comes to Privacy Apple is the only company amongst the big tech we can trust.
Microsoft, Google, Facebook are all anti-privacy and just about using dar patterns to steal users info. It’s disgusting.
raxxorraxor
It is still the correct solution. A sensible default doesn't conflict here, but hardware switched are the only solution where you can be entirely sure.
matthewmacleod
No, that's not the "correct solution". It's another valid solution, with a different set of costs and benefits.
dymk
This is a hardware kill switch, in the form of a (set of) transistors
fsflover
Can it be reprogrammed?
sdfhbdf
Probably not in Apple’s “it just works” design philosophy. Also that’s another moving piece that can break.
JamesSwift
I mean... it doesnt seem uncommon to have people dock a closed laptop so I would argue it doesnt "just work".
908B64B197
I'd rather have an LED on the same circuit as the microphone. If it's live, it has to send current through it. Easy to observe.
earlyam
A cool feature on laptops would be a jumper you could physically disconnect, and a tiny window (on say, the bottom of the laptop) to verify it hasn't been reconnected.
kube-system
If you need a window on the case of your laptop to verify that your hardware hasn't been tampered with, you've got bigger problems.
j45
Even if it was configurable to disable either.
lovehashbrowns
They have this feature but closing the lid on a MacBook or even putting it to sleep allows Bluetooth devices to stay connected. Heck, a MacBook even while in sleep mode will connect to Bluetooth devices. As far as I can see, this requires a third-party app to fix. Can an application still use the microphone on a Bluetooth device that’s connected?
dvirsky
This has to be the most annoying thing in MacOS. My laptop, soundly sleeping in my backpack, takes over my bluetooth headphones all the time.
cj
Similarly, whenever I'm working at my kitchen table I always "lose" my mouse as if there's another monitor connected.
I realized a couple weeks later MacOS display continuity (or "sidecar"?) was connecting to my Mac Mini located directly upstairs using it as a 2nd monitor while I'm downstairs.
My apple watch also regularly unlocks my Mac Mini when I'm downstairs (Mac Mini in a bedroom upstairs).
All of these features pose serious security issues if your physical location isn't secure/trusted.
There really should be a "Travel Mode" for MacOS that disables features like these. No one wants airport security to open a laptop and have the apple watch immediately unlock it for them while standing 20 feet away (or in another room).
macshome
Your watch really shouldn’t be able to do that. The pairing uses p2p latency as a way to determine if you are actually close enough to your Mac to want to unlock it.
I’ve used it for years now with a variety of watches and Macs and I’ve always had to be right next to the computer with a fairly clear line of sight between them. Even putting my watch on the other side of my body is normally enough to make it tell me that the WiFi signal isn’t strong enough to unlock it.
badpun
To me, that's just a failure on Bluetooth spec part, period. All reasonable bluetooth devices should come with a selector which allows you to choose which device to connect to [1]. Instead, there's this crapshoot, where, if there are multiple bluetooth devices near you, you'll get paired with a random one, and will have to disable bluetooth on it to roll the dice again.
[1] For cheapest devices, a physical button that goes to the next available device would still make a world of difference.
jackson1442
Definitely should be an os-level feature to disable all that, similar to using panic mode on ios to disable biometrics.
I personally boot my laptops to the filevault screen and no further when going through the security checkpoints. Keeps the disk encrypted and requires my password to continue.
sroussey
You should spend a few minutes in setting. Continuity allows a mouse and keyboard to run multiple macs and iPads. You move the cursor all the way over to the end of the screen. It stops but if you push more it will switch to the neighboring Mac. Easy to disable in settings. You can unlock your other Mac this way (I think), and Apple Watch will unlock if you are close by. All changeable in settings.
unxdfa
I've disabled unlock with Apple Watch and bought a touch ID magic keyboard. This is a far better solution!
It was neat for a couple of days until I was walking out of the room and my mac unlocked itself.
JustSomeNobody
> There really should be a "Travel Mode" for MacOS that disables features like these.
Sadly that is not the Apple way. We'll have to wait years for them to come up with a "solution" that doesn't involve a disable button. If they even decide to work on it.
thomaslkjeldsen
> There really should be a "Travel Mode" for MacOS that disables features like these.
Have you tried macOS Lockdown Mode?
sizzle
Disable Apple Watch unlock for other Mac devices, a 4 digit pin on your watch really lowers the bar for security.
supermdguy
I hate that this isn't configurable by default, but bluesnooze solved this for me: https://github.com/odlp/bluesnooze
jbj
this comments reminds me about owning a mac and installing a github repo to allow mouse scrolling direction to not be tied to touch pad scrolling
[edit] just following up, it was UnnaturalScrollWheels, which have been notarized: https://github.com/ther0n/UnnaturalScrollWheels/releases/tag...
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chenghuzi
you can just use hammerspoon to get the same effect, turning off the bluetooth/wifi right after entering sleep mode and turning them back on when the Mac is unlocked.
georgelyon
I've long desired form my AirPods to operate in a "play any sound from any of my devices" mode. This seems like a no-brainer and such phantom connections would as a result have no user-visible impact and you could do things like listen to music coming from your phone while hearing sounds from your MacBook.
mgkimsal
Unsure if I would love or hate that, but it might be more natural than the iphone/airpods/mac "incoming call" fiasco I face regularly.
Airpods/MacOS - listening to background music. Phone call comes in... VERY LOUD facetime 'ring' announces on mac that I'm getting a phone call.
Pick up phone to answer it... holy tamole - it's minimum 8 seconds between clicking 'answer' and... eventually airpods switching over to phone - most of the time. To the calling party, I've 'answered', but they can't hear me - or... can sort of hear me, but I can't hear them. The speed at which the 'switch' takes place, and the visual delay (air pod icons turning on, then off, then on again, then a floating top notification saying "airpods connected"...)... this is always minimum 8 seconds. Usually 10-11.
I just say "hang on, i'm switching my earpiece over..." and wait. Annoying. Given that this is all in their ecosystem, I expect this to get better, not worse. I'd rather this sort of experience get fixed vs more emojis, or 'sidecar' or whatnot.
makeitdouble
What you’re requesting seem pretty complex, or at least resource intensive to me.
It means the airPods keep X active connections with any device that says it could emit sound at any time, while also harmonizing sound levels as the devices don’t have the same settings, and mixing it all at the end.
That feels like a lot to ask for tiny devices with limited battery. Now that could be a nice idea for a separate device that keeps all these bluetooth connection alive and deals with all the mess to deliver a single stream to your earbuds (albeit with double the latency)
taneq
Such an obvious feature… you would think! Apparently it’s not that easy, though, because nobody seems able to do it.
tbarbugli
I had the same, switching to Airpods “fixed” this problem. I doubt Apple will ever do something about this, bt audio works fine as long as you use iPhone, Macbook and Apple pods
cortesoft
I have AirPods, but the experience still sucks with multiple devices.
I have my phone, my laptop, my iPad, and two iPads for my kids, all on my account. I literally am unable to make my kid’s iPads forget my AirPods, because it is tied to the apple account. If I have the iPads forget them, it forgets them on all my devices. It is annoying as hell, I have to leave Bluetooth off on my kids iPads.
mgkimsal
'audio' mostly does, unless that audio involved answering a call (posted about this in a separate thread). The experience of listening to music on a mac with airpods, then trying to answer an incoming call on the phone, and using the airpods, is abysmally slow, in my experience.
hamburglar
This comment section is a sheer delight to anyone who’s ever said they prefer wired headphones because of the flakiness of Bluetooth and had a chorus of people respond that they must be doing something wrong because Bluetooth “just works.”
yamtaddle
Seems like a hard choice between two kinds of behavior that will annoy two different sets of people, and are mutually exclusive.
shortcake27
There used to be a option to disable bluetooth devices waking a Mac. It was removed a couple years ago. I can kind of understand because this would also prevent a keyboard/mouse waking the Mac, which isn’t ideal. I assume a lot of people were turning this setting off then complaining their Mac won’t wake.
However, if a Macbook is sleeping and closed with no peripherals attached, I can’t see any use case for waking from bluetooth. It doesn’t make sense.
gnicholas
I don't understand why the bluetooth-stealing happens so often. I'll literally be in the middle of a podcast on my phone, and my iPad in the next room (on which my kids have been watching something) will take over my headphones. There's no change in state on either device (not stopping/starting), and I haven't moved close to the iPad (and the iPhone is much closer, in my pocket). I just have to turn off bluetooth entirely on the iPad to avoid this.
TheBozzCL
It's a generalized problem in Apple devices.
I use a USB/bluetooth headphone DAC/amp. Most of the time, I plug it into my work laptop and listen to videos/music while I work. Sometimes, if a video ends or if I pause playback, my iPhone (which INSISTS on connecting to the amp) will take over and start playing music.
I really wish you could turn off auto-connect to bluetooth devices.
disgruntledphd2
Bluetooth is basically the devil though. My Bose speaker cant handle the fact that I always want my Android phone, and keeps insisting that I really want my child's IPad.
kaushikc
I suspect the problem could be the bluetooth technology itself.
gloosx
Most annoying thing is actually how bad bluetooth driver is. On multiple macbooks I had (2011-2022) the bluetooth will just not connect to things, randomly disconnect from them, unresponsive devices when thy are connected (also not responding to disconnect), problems connecting any keyboard but Apple™ Magic Keyboard, and of course, aggressive takeover of every device with a strong competition towards othre macbooks and iphone devices.
tagyro
That is actually meant to keep the connection to a Bluetooth keyboard/mouse when using the computer in clamshell mode.
rpledge
Apples clamshell mode support is super confusing IMHO. This is once thing Windows does better at least by default. Perhaps Macs can be configured to what I expect but I personally have struggled with getting it to work in a way that satisfies me.
zamnos
For those of us without both in our lives, can you be more specific on the differences that makes Window's system better?
judge2020
The rule is that it must be powered, have a keyboard connected, and have an external display plugged in. It is very confusing especially since everything cuts out if your power source turns off, but this does allow some monitors to provide power+USB+one display over a single C cord to enable clamshell mode.
Kind of unrelated but it sucks that Macs don't do multiple displays over a single cable because Apple refuses to support it in their GPU via the built-in MST hub (that otherwise is put to use for driving the Pro Display XDR).
datagram
I feel the opposite way. Trying to get Windows laptops to keep outputting to an external display with the lid closed has always been a hassle for me.
mrinterweb
It would be great if certain types of bluetooth devices could remain connected. Physical input devices only would likely be a good default. There is little reason, IMO, for speaker connections to be active. In clamshell mode, I would expect all bluetooth connections to be active, but while suspended, please drop nonessential connections. Being able to override the default disconnect rules per device would be ideal.
tagyro
> There is little reason, IMO, for speaker connections to be active.
A few comments down:
> @asveikau: I think you should be able to play music while the lid is closed. That seems like a reasonable use case.
Also, wouldn't having a different behaviour, based on specific classes of devices, create more confusion for users?
Oh, and, all together now: Bluetooth sucks!
wyager
They don't let me use an HDMI display without external power while closed, so why let me use bluetooth without power?
shortcake27
The opposite is also true. You can’t officially use a Macbook in clamshell mode (eg, as a headless media server) even when connected to power. When you close the lid without a connected display, the official MacOS behaviour is to put the computer to sleep. You need a third-party tool to prevent it from sleeping.
Yet when my Macbook is asleep in my bag with no peripherals attached, my headphones will connect and wake the Mac.
The left hand does not know what the right hand is doing. It literally makes no sense.
porbelm
...and they could make it so it stays on only of there's an external display connected, but then communication could be disabled by the person who stole your laptop. So Find My would not be able to find and more importantly report a location.
tagyro
> ...and they could make it so it stays on only of there's an external display connected
Not always, my monitor goes to sleep and turns off. At this point, macOS should turn Bluetooth off? How would I wake the computer then? I would have to open it.
> Find My would not be able to find and more importantly report a location.
That might be another reason why Bluetooth stays on. On a laptop, I'd rather have Find My working in clamshell mode (given the theft risk).
asveikau
I think you should be able to play music while the lid is closed. That seems like a reasonable use case.
Set computer up on a table, pair Bluetooth speaker, put on your favorite streaming service, close the lid and walk away, the music filling the room. Totally reasonable.
exitb
That’s a different topic really. There are tools that can prevent going to sleep when the lid is closed with no peripherals attached. When not used, most users would expect for the laptop to go to sleep, even if it’s playing something at the time.
What this is about is engaging Bluetooth devices while asleep, which doesn’t make any practical sense.
asveikau
> When not used, most users would expect for the laptop to go to sleep
I think part of the problem here is that defining "in use" is actually very difficult, and it's literally something where two different users (or even the same user at different times) could have different expectations for the same circumstance as defined in code.
Ensorceled
The best part is that closing the lid seems to put it into a "supershitty Bluetooth" state: I can be listening to music/podcast/audiobook from my phone, which is in my pocket, close the laptop and suddenly start getting "Connection <long pause> Lost" every 20-30 seconds until I go back to my laptop and turn off bluetooth.
elzbardico
The problem here is that people that use external keyboards and mice over BT expect to be able to wake their MacBooks connected to external displays even with the lid closed.
andoma
Nah, Makes no sense. I can manually disconnect the BT audio headset while having keyboard and mouse still working fine over BT.
hackmiester
I do not think this is as simple as you believe it is. Would the average user not find this really confusing?
You plug your laptop into your dock and close it, and suddenly your AirPods stop working, even though the rest of the computer works fine?
babypuncher
Wouldn't this be because BT perhipherals like mice and keyboards need to be able to wake the machine up?
Also FindMy relies on BT to work.
An option to disable BT when the lid is closed might be nice, but it shouldn't be the default. I think most people do not want that.
lovehashbrowns
I can understand that if I’m just closing the lid but my MacBook shouldn’t be connecting to BT devices when it’s in sleep mode. My Windows laptop won’t do that when it’s in sleep mode. This feels counterintuitive to me. There should at least be a setting where I can disable that without having to install a third-party app, y’know? ‘Cause I can understand for the need to keep a device connected if I’m just closing the lid, but the laptop isn’t going into sleep mode.
It’s also really funny how fast all my Apple devices “steal” a BT connection. Both my mb air and my tablet beat all my windows machines at taking over a BT device no matter what I try. I should try to race my tablet and the Air to see which one wins.
babypuncher
The default behavior for most laptops go to sleep after a period of inactivity even when docked and in clamshell mode.
I think users with wireless peripherals would find it irritating if every time they sat down at their desk they had to open the lid to wake their laptop.
gligorot
And you can’t turn bluetooth off without logging in first, a feature which is available for WiFi. Horrendous UX decisions by Apple.
porbelm
Well if you have the Find My Device functionality enabled, not being able to turn off Bluetooth (and WiFi) is a good thing, since a thief cannot disable location deriving and reporting features by turning them off.
0cf8612b2e1e
Surely the Bluetooth beacon/Find My Device workflow could be separated from the user accessible headphones use.
gligorot
I don’t think those are connected…or at least it would be silly for that to be the case. Say your laptop was stolen when your BT was off for some random reason - does that mean you won’t be able to find it?
joshstrange
> Horrendous UX decisions by Apple.
Is there any OS that offers that by default? I don't remember ever seeing that on Windows or any linux distro I used.
gligorot
Whether other OSs do by default is irrelevant. Are you saying that I just be content with the ability to turn off WiFi?
Besides, MacOS is cherished by many as a UX/UI masterpiece, yet there are many annoyances that need to be fixed by the user. For example window management is a big one, I simply haven’t been able to achieve the comfort of i3 on my work Mac. (tmux comes close, but I can’t run Firefox in there)
threeseed
> a feature which is available for WiFi
I am not able to disable WiFi from the login screen.
I think it would be a horrendous decision to allow random people to do this.
gligorot
All this is available on an iPhone, including wifi, cellular, bluetooth, airplane mode, hotspot and airdrop control.
But maybe that’s beside the point, I’m interested why you see this as a bad thing?
alexpetralia
And the MacBook is so "greedy" that it will always connect to my Bluetooth devices before anything else can, forcing me to take out the MacBook, open the lid, sign in and disable Bluetooth.
CryptoBanker
This title is slightly confusing. I was thinking that closing my MacBook disables this privacy feature
O__________O
Title was updated, but for context, prior to editing by HN mods, HN’s title for the post read, “Closing your MacBook hardware disconnects microphone, safety/privacy feature” — was confusing edit made by OP; current title now mirrors title on Apple.
Reptur
Should just be a hardware switch you can flip. We should be able to decide whether the webcam or mic is physically connected.
edgartaor
Exactly. Its like companies are allergic to phisical switches.
SamuelAdams
Everything has a cost. Physical switches that are frequently used are among the first to fail. This is partly why iPhones got rid of the home button in lieu of Face ID. Now, macbooks automatically start up when the lid is opened - this saves an extra button press to the power button. Over the lifespan of the device this reduces wear and tear on common buttons significantly.
What would be nice is physical switches that are easily replaceable - but this also impacts a device's water-proofness and thinness. And the market prefers those two factors over switches, generally.
samuria
I see what you are saying. But a switch to turn off/on the microphone would not be used as frequently as a home button. This is why Apple still has the ring/silent switch on the iPhone. This was introduced with the first iPhone and still exists today.
madeofpalk
> This is partly why iPhones got rid of the home button in lieu of Face ID
Home button went non-mechanical the year before Face ID was introduced FWIW.
surteen
Except HP, Lenovo, Framework, Purism...
sneak
There is a physical switch. It's the lid. It's not even a soft switch, the article clearly specifies that it's done in non-reprogrammable hardware logic, which is immune to tampering even by Apple who has bootloader signing keys.
notabee
That's a pretty poorly designed switch, if your intention is to turn off the microphone while otherwise using the system. It's better than not having any way to disconnect the microphone, but strictly inferior to any system where you can toggle the desired state at any time.
hanniabu
Costs more and you can't create back doors
starky
This is one of my favourite features on my Framework laptop. I use it primarily for video conferencing when working from home. It is no nice that I can flip the switches and then don't have to worry about Google trying to automatically turn my camera or mic on.
Gigachad
That creates a worse product for the user. It adds an extra switch to the design which complicates it, and it leads to situations where the mic isn’t on but the user doesn’t know why.
What Apple came up with works perfect as it adds some privacy while affecting the user in no way. This is also combined with permission dialogs for mic access and an indicator light showing the mic is in use.
Reptur
> It adds an extra switch to the design which complicates it, and it leads to situations where the mic isn’t on but the user doesn’t know why.
This could be solved with a simple dialog box telling the use to check the switch.
> What Apple came up with works perfect as it adds some privacy while affecting the user in no way.
Far from perfect. Anything except physical disconnect switches can be overridden with software, and companies like Apple can be compelled to cooperate with creating back-doors. Which opens up those same back-doors to bad actors figuring out how to use them.
rimliu
Ah yes, "dialog box solves problems" must have been how we got cookie prompts.
kanbara
if there is a button in software, it can be hacked _in software_
this is in hardware and cannot be tampered with. apple also doesn't make backdoors, haven't you heard of what happened with the FBI?
kop316
> situations where the mic isn’t on but the user doesn’t know why.
When I disable the Mic/Camera on my Librem 5, I have a notification on the screen that shows they are disabled. Same with my laptop. When I disable wifi, if I go to the notification area, it says "Disabled by hardware switch". So....there are ways to do this.
O__________O
Anyone have an explanation of how Apple actually decides what merits security and what does not?
(For example, it’s my understanding that turning turn off a iPhone, it’s bluetooth, etc — does not actually completely turn them off. Also appears hardware/OS specs vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction; for example, it is my understanding China limits a number of iPhone’s hardware/OS specs for domestic iPhones.)
meatmanek
When you bring up the option to turn off your phone, there's a toggle to let you turn off "Find my iPhone", with a decent description:
"iPhone Findable After Power Off >"
> iPhone Remains Findable After Power Off > Find My helps you locate this iPhone when it is lost or stolen, even in power reserve mode or after power off. > > The location is visible in Find My on your other devices, and to people in Family Sharing you share location with. > > You can temporarily turn off Find My network and it will resume when this iPhone is powered on again. > > OK > Temporarily Turn Off Finding
If you click Temporarily Turn Off Finding, you need to enter your passcode. This is to prevent phone thieves from just turning off your phone to make it untraceable.
My expectation is that if you Temporarily Turn Off Finding, the bluetooth radio is fully off.
O__________O
Understand your point, though doesn’t match my experiences turning a iPhone off fully charged before sleeping (including configuration you mentioned) — and then leaving it off for the night only to find the battery drained significantly in the morning upon turning it on. Beyond that, unlike the OP article that’s subject of this thread, not aware of any Apple support article that clearly states off is off if XYZ is done. Obvious solution would be a switch that physically disconnects the battery, drains capacitors, etc. — though it would likely require redesign of how the system clock pulls power, though might be wrong:
- https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/87580/how-does-an-...
behnamoh
I wish Apple would think about MacBook screens when the lid is closed. Too many times I've had to wipe clean the display after opening because the keys leave shapes on the monitor.
alin23
I've gone back to using a thin waxed paper (like the ones you find in shoe boxes) between the keyboard and the screen when closing the lid.
It's a bit annoying, but I'm sick of getting delamination after 1 year. I got this M1 Max with the thought that it will be relevant for app development for at least 5 years, and I still want to be able to work outside in the sun until then.
j45
Wax paper is a much better idea than some of the keyboard covers I’ve used in the past, they can dig into the lcd in other ways but are convenient too
kitsunesoba
YMMV, but in my experience this happens mainly when the MacBook has been sitting under something else or packed tightly in a bag. I never see it if the laptop has been closed with nothing applying pressure on the lid.
Not that this isn’t a design oversight, but it might be mitigable until Apple makes design tweaks to fix it.
gorbypark
It's been a thing for 10+ years, I don't think Apple has any interest in design tweaks. I have seen the marks on my new MBA M2 after just closing the laptop and carrying it in my hand for 2 minutes. I wasn't gripping it tightly or anything, just carrying it like a normal human would carry it.
kitsunesoba
Interesting. I wonder if maybe the smaller models (Air, 13" and maybe 14" Pro) are more prone to this? I've had very little trouble with it on 15" models from 2015 onward or with the 16" M1 Pro.
Maxburn
I don't think there is anything to tweak. It's probably designed to have less than 1mm when closed normally and the pressure of being in a book bag will easily flex the aluminum that much, if not bend it. As other said leave the original packing cloth in it and use a hard shell carrying case that won't put pressure on the laptop.
j45
Maybe Apple wants it this way to ensure their machines are handled gingerly and reduce warranty claims
fwlr
I found this with my first MacBook Air. Ever since, I keep the little paper insert that comes with a new MacBook. It stays in my laptop case, solves this issue perfectly.
pb7
I'm curious, what do you propose here? The keys leave imprints because the screen flexes from pressure applied presumably in your bag or similar. MacBooks already have some of the most rigid screens on the market. This is pure physics at play and the imprints come from your oily fingers. What's your suggestion?
t344344
Not OP, but I would share my opinion.
Too many compromises were made to make macbook thin (unreliable keyboard, cooling, power delivery, battery, ports, non removable SSD...). Apple should make a model that is a bit thicker without those compromises!
And my Asus does not have key fingerprints on screen...
pb7
Does your Asus have a glass screen? Do you carry it in a backpack where there is pressure on the screen? Mind you, this isn't a well known issue. I've had it happen to me once in a decade of owning and frequently traveling with these and my backpack was stuffed to the point that it might damage the screen.
I disagree about making it thicker. The newest MacBook Pros are already extremely thick and heavy. I don't want to be carrying around a brick just because some people don't wash their hands or clean their keyboards every once in a while.
kylehotchkiss
Step 1: Clean your keyboard with some Whoosh! (https://www.gearpatrol.com/tech/a38814800/apple-secret-clean...)
Step 2: Don't work while eating or use your external keyboard
riffic
wash your hands
Waterluvian
On the topic of closing and opening your MacBook, has anyone else had an issue where with an M1 any time they open it from sleep the cursor moves at like 20hz until you close it and open it again?
It’s been driving me mad and I can’t find anything about it online.
gjsman-1000
I had an issue that drove me mad where if the battery went to 0% (and macOS went into hibernate), I would then plug it back in and the mouse cursor would be quite... jittery. Almost to the point of unusable at the worst of it.
macOS 13.1? appears to have solved this problem. Better late than never.
BoorishBears
I had an infuriating variant of this across two M1 machines where they'd kernel panic while trying to hibernate at 0% battery.
And even plugging in a charger before it actually died wouldn't save it: It'd try to turn stay on but the pending hibernation would kick in and it'd die.
The "fix" for me was to turn off deep sleep. Technically now they'll drain more during sleep, but that's preferrable than being broken during sleep.
The whole experience was disappointingly Linux though. Having to read through the Console to figure out it was a kernel panic and not a power issue, having to read through Darwin sources to track down where exactly in the hibernation it was failing, not the kind of stuff I expect to deal with from Apple hardware.
renewiltord
Oh I had the same jittery pointer but couldn't figure out the cause. Seems gone now so maybe it was fixed in the update.
Waterluvian
Oh!! I just finally updated to 13.1. I should test it out. Thanks for the reminder.
whitepoplar
Same here
tornato7
I have the same exact issue on my M1 MacBook Air. You can find plenty of others online with the same issue if you search 'cursor lag' - however I haven't found a working solution. If you figure it out please let me know!
Waterluvian
I’m finding results now. How did I not find these earlier?! Thank you.
possiblelion
Holy crap, same! I had the issue on my M1 MBP and now am having the same issue with my M2 MBA. Please anyone help if they know how to fix it.
ryanianian
My M1 often wakes from sleep only to beachball and 20hz-screen-refresh for 120-150 seconds. I think it's a thing with the memory-management. I have to restart the machine to fix it or it will happen every time I close the lid.
Oh, and the machine forgets its audio settings when this happens, too. Always tries to revert to built-in speakers while it's closed despite having a CalTech hub with speakers I've selected dozens of times.
I don't understand why laptops continue to have such weird power-management problems. I thought we fixed this stuff ages ago.
jarboot
What fixed this for me was disabling siri
ezekg
If this really is the fix, I really need to know why.
worksonmine
She's using all resources to cleanup after the party she had while you were gone.
BeenAGoodUser
I have this issue when my MacBook Pro wakes up after its battery went empty, even once charged it doesn't go away and you have to restart it
iamspoilt
Does that mean MacBook microphone cannot work while operating in Dock mode?
havefunbesafe
Imagine how terribly it would work, given that the mic is adjacent to the speakers.
amf12
This is an interesting use case that is worth mentioning. This feature would make MacBook unusable for me unless I use a Bluetooth headset.
jaysinn_420
Yes, that is exactly what it means.
iLoveOncall
Yes, and it's incredibly annoying.
mrtksn
I guess this fits the situation: https://xkcd.com/1172/
It probably wouldn't work well due to the obstruction anyway.
iLoveOncall
No it doesn't. The sound plays just fine when the computer is closed, why would the microphone stop?
You are able to use an external monitor with your laptop closed, it's not an edge case to want to use the computer's mic in that case.
unscrew5430
I wonder whether one would be able to do passive sound reconstruction using the laptops camera, sice it isn't being deactivated. I guess you would only be able to extract sounds lower than ~30Hz if the camera records at 60Hz, but that should be enough to detect steps for example. Not that this has real privacy implications, but I think that would be a fun way of disproving that no sound can be recorded.
kylehotchkiss
I had no idea about the iPad microphone disconnect. That's cool enough to justify getting a new case. I wish they'd address some of their other products. Optionally enable hardware microphone disconnect on phones when placing upside down with their lockdown mode. No idea how the watch microphone could be disabled.
worksonmine
> No idea how the watch microphone could be disabled.
Not everything has to be a futuristic gesture you know, could just have a hardware switch like on the librem phones. Also more reliable than the sensors, and that's something I would like for a privacy feature. Knowing that it's disconnected and can't be tampered with.
AlbertCory
(this is about phones as well as laptops)
Not only HW disconnect of the mic, but the speakers as well. I want a switch on the side that does the equivalent of taping over the camera. No software can use them when they're off, period.
Take back your privacy.
sneak
What privacy is lost by someone using your front-facing camera when you don't want them to?
The microphone is far more important.
Pictures of your face are simple and easy to acquire; you give them up willingly every time you walk into a convenience store, airport, bank, or use an ATM. They're not secret and their compromise does not harm you.
AlbertCory
Is this a serious question? Who is "someone"?
krzyk
Now, how hard it would be to allow user to have a slider (just like the one on iPhones for DND) to allow hardware disabling of mic?
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I was recently trying to figure out whether the microphone is usable when using my notebook in clamshell-mode. Turns out Apple added a privacy/safety feature to all Apple silicon-based Mac notebooks and Intel-based Mac notebooks with the Apple T2 Security Chip. It will hardware disconnect the microphone when the lid is closed, based on the lid sensors.
Pretty cool safety feature!! Even though I'm sad I can't use my mic in clamshell mode