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necatiozmen
vicsomething
Hey mate, you guys are building a really great project there. Take a look at ours here: https://github.com/illacloud/illa-builder
hipjiveguy
wow... never came across this - looks great!
rlnorthcutt
Wow! It is great to see another low code, open source platform being launched. I’ve been involved with open source for over 25 years, and I am a big believer in the power of open source to accelerate development and empower people all over the world to build amazing things. I have built a career on OSS, and millions of others have as well. It is a game changer.
In full transparency, I am the Head of DevRel at Appsmith, which is an alternative tool to Open Blocks, and a source for some of Open Block’s code (https://github.com/openblocks-dev/openblocks/search?q=appsmi...).
However, that is not really what I want to discuss here.
As long as I have been involved in open source, I have dealt with FUD about OSS from investors, executives, and business people who don’t “get it”. These folks have usually been highly resistant to open sourcing code or making contributions because they think it will hurt the business. “Why would I want to share code that can be used to compete against us?” This could even apply to a young engineer or maintainer of a growing open-source project who’s deciding to startup and thinking whether to build an OSS company.
We have seen a huge boom in open source business models, and this is a GREAT thing. But, what can we do to ensure that we don’t prove the naysayers right?
My concern is that as we see a rise in competition among open source businesses, we will also see a rise in competitive businesses (open source and proprietary) that use previous work to accelerate their advantage… which is one of the central features to open source.
But, in theory, open source also has advantages for those who provide code - attribution, contribution, funding, shared resources, etc. There are also different licensing models that have strengths and weaknesses. We decided to go with a permissive license so that people can use Appsmith in all environments, and sometimes this works against us because competitors can build on top of Appsmith. But hey, that’s the nature of the game right?
So - what can we or should we do as a community to ensure that open source business models can be successful without tarnishing the reputation of open source in general? Should we be more clear with attribution? Should we partner and make shared libraries for common functionality? Maybe do nothing? What do you think?
shuaihan
Thanks for your comment. co-founder of Openblocks here.
To provide some background info, there are 19 files containing code from Appsmith currently, all of them are about data source integration and have been added the corresponding apache license text.
I'm a super fan of open-source software. Nowadays no software can be built without the dependency on open-source projects. Openblocks have a direct dependency on dozens of open source projects, I'm grateful to all of them and I don't think using them harms the reputation of open source, instead, this is what makes OSS prosperous.
I was an Appsmith user and the project helped me a lot on building tools, I really appreciate that you maintain such a great project. But building web apps has a big scope, I don't think the story ends here. One of the things that makes Retool/Appsmith stand out is their developer-friendly nature, but there are also many limitations compared to developer-first frameworks like React/Vue. We start a new project because there are so many potentials and possibilities that need to be explored.
Speaking of shared libraries, I think it's a fantastic idea. It will be amazing if we can maintain a common data source/integration library together. There are so many platforms out there that need integration features. Though, finding the right abstraction for integration is a little tricky. We are working on an protocol and will provide all the integration source codes of Openblocks with a more permissive license. Hopefully, other platforms can benefit from it and be able to spend more time on innovation instead of repetitive work.
rlnorthcutt
I really appreciate you taking the time to share! The inclusion of the Appsmith name and license on the code used is a great example of how we can be more transparent and ensure proper attribution. Clearly, your team has given careful thought to this topic as well.
There are always so many ways to solve problems, and lots of approaches that are optimized for specific users, tech stacks, industries, etc. Personally, I find so much more value in the exploration of new ideas and different decisions (as you have done) than simply being a "clone" of another tool.
As we move more into this new space, the ability to share libraries and integration patterns could be super useful for us all. I'll be sure to highlight that internally!
vicsomething
Lol, you should check this one too. Here: https://github.com/illacloud/illa-builder
rlnorthcutt
While I think it is important to share new projects and even brag a bit about our own, I'm not clear on how this adds to the conversation? Illa has been mentioned multiple times here, so at this point it feels a bit spammy. As a developer, I feel like a little bit of self-promotion goes a long way. Hope this helps.
alexthon87
open block definitely uses some of appsmith and retool's code. You can use the IDEA to do your own the functions, but please do not COPY & PASTE. Don't be copycat.
rlnorthcutt
Open source is open source. There is nothing wrong with using and reusing open source code as long as it is within the bounds of the license. We have a permissive license for Appsmith on purpose - we want to share and inspire!
My question here is more about IF or HOW we, as a community, should improve how we reuse or extend open source code for commercial projects. I am very open to hearing all ideas - thanks.
naj1n
I think this will lead to OSS becoming a "finite game".
rlnorthcutt
Can you expand on that a bit more? Do you think that more open source business models will lead to more rehashing of the same code/concepts over an over again?
I'm also curious how you think this may apply to the rise in AI coding projects. In theory, it will become possible to create complex software by simply describing it well, and much of that code from the AI training is open source.
naj1n
Incredibly, ChatGPT from @OpenAI provides the sample Wasmer's Rust code. AI coding projects are crazy. Maybe ur right.
naj1n
First, it's gorgeous to be the first open-source alternative to xxx in different industry segments. In comparison, it's just commercial competition that more and more OSS alternatives to the same project.
Then, it's difficult for me to have a good discussion with u on the AI coding project. There are so many problems, such as licenses, trademarks, and secrets of contribution behind AI coding.
Thk u.
fulafel
Anyone have a retool-less explanation of what this is?
renewiltord
Drag and drop internal app builder
chachra
Looks promising for sure! I know its hard to fund etc. but it'd be nice if truly 100% open-source options existed! Even the ones that are open-source, then have pricing for SSO etc. which is disappointing. I see the same in the headless CMS space where tools like Strapi, make it very hard to adopt without paying $$$.
jroes
I feel like charging for SSO is a reasonable request of enterprises when adopting open source software. Most enterprises require SSO as policy (and should). Most enterprises also don't contribute financially to the sustainability of open source software, so this is one way to ensure that happens.
eropple
The problem is that everyone should have SSO, and that includes small orgs.
If you don't want your stuff used by small orgs that can't afford to pay, that's a totally reasonable standpoint. At the same time, though, if it's good they probably will use it despite not having SSO, and so that decision makessecurity (something that, by and large, benefits everyone) into an opt-in luxury good. Speaking only for me, I'd be uncomfortable espousing that as a philosophy.
jroes
I agree that orgs of all sizes should use SSO. The pricing should scale appropriately.
But as we have seen, companies are not doing enough to secure the sustainability of the open source software they rely on for their businesses, and I think a balance needs to be struck.
donqu1xote1
[flagged]
amendegree
This looks super promising.
We've been looking for a good all in one internal tool builder, gonna invesitage this now.
Anyone have any other alt's they found useful?
alexarena
Founder of https://interval.com here. We're somewhere in-between Retool and Windmill which was mentioned on this thread.
Like Windmill, Interval is heavily code-focused. Our model lets you define tools in your existing TypeScipt/JavaScript codebase.
Like Retool, you can use Interval to build complete internal dashboards that handle the "view stuff" side of things, not just the script/workflow "do stuff" pieces.
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ianyanusko
Founder of Bracket, YCW22 (https://www.usebracket.com/) here. You can use us to set up internal tools in Airtable, G Sheets, or Notion using 1-way and 2-way syncs.
mediaman
Another one I'm trying out is Grist. They have Python scripting for functions and their way of viewing multiple tables on one screen is helpful. So far I'm liking it, although it misses some things like prefiltered referential selection boxes, and I would like more entry validation for deployment to typical internal end users. They're also not great at marketing themselves.
I looked at Budibase but it doesn't offer self-referencing table relationships and the CSV import process doesn't seem to support updates as cleanly as Grist. And the interface seemed kind of sluggish to me.
jerryxumaomao
You should try ILLA. It's also an open-source low-code platform, and it's very stable. We are developing new features and iterating very fast. Try ILLA and let me know if you experience any inconvenience, and we will put all the advice into our next version plan. (https://github.com/illa-family/illa-builder)
xiaoyu-a
when are you guys going to provide cloud service?
jerryxumaomao
Cloud service will be up online by the end of this year! You can try to self-host first! (https://github.com/illacloud/illa-builder) Let me know if you have more questions!
Aaikansh22
I believe you should definitely check DronaHQ https://www.dronahq.com/ .
An ideal alternative to Retool. We offer an intuitive drag drop interface with 150+ pre-built UI components and you can also connect with any database of your choice and build admin panels, dashboards, or any kind of web and mobile apps. The best part is you can choose what suits you the best between user-based pricing or usage based pricing.
For more details > https://www.dronahq.com/retool-alternative/
tylersgordon
Tooljet IMO is the most promising of the open-source Retool competitors. It has a great UI, is easy to use, plugs into everything, and is super flexible. If you haven't checked out out lately, I highly recommend it.
foxbee
Out of curiosity, have you tried Budibase? I'm the co-founder and would be interested to hear your feedback if you've tried it.
petilon
If you want to build traditional forms: https://airforms.com
glutamate
Hi, I'm the lead dev of Saltcorn (https://saltcorn.com), I built it around the relational data model and it may fit your use case. Some people are finding it useful!
iampari
I just watched all the videos of Saltcorn on Youtube - and amongst the tools I researched so far this was most impressive. About to use it for a few internal tools soon.
fdeth
Left menu navigation, finally! I’m canceling my Retool subscription immediately.
donqu1xote1
[flagged]
thecleaner
These things keep popping up left and right. I can think of atleast 6 no-code / low-code platforms all focussed on internal tools. Somehow they are all profitable, retool a bit more since it went to a "better school". Interesting space.
pragmatick
Looks great. Are there any more advanced example projects?
AlphaWeaver
Could this also be an open source replacement for Airtable?
blacksoil
Have you heard of baserow.io? It's open source airtable
Multrex
Is it stable? I really want to ditch appsmith, tried ToolJet but didn't hook me. Yours look promising, i hope you continue the development of it.
foxbee
Have you tried Budibase? For reference, I am the cofounder of Budibase and we're planning 2023 so I am super-eager for feedback.
barnabee
Some feedback, as you asked for it and I signed up for both OpenBlocks and Budibase cloud versions today to try them out:
(NB: If I like either or both of them I’ll self host, as I have no interest in SaaS, indeed it’s what’s stopped me from using things like Retool despite missing RAD tools ever since Delphi stopped being a viable solution for me.)
OpenBlocks dropped me quickly into its pretty snappy app (literally just connected Github and done) and I was away and designing a simple screen in no time. Budibase on the other hand asked me a bunch of questions about my “company” and job, then dumped me straight into a wizard to create or connect to a database.
It felt like ages before I could start clicking and playing around. I nearly gave up and left at least twice and in fact ended up only trying the actual tools in Budibase out for a much shorter time as a result. Maybe I’ll go back to it later, but I’m already planning to deploy an OpenBlocks instance to mess around with more.
I massively prefer the OpenBlocks approach here. I want to be dropped quickly into a powerful and intuitive tool, not taken through a signup and data harvesting flow nor invited to create an app through a series of wizards. From what I see Budibase looks promising and it seems to have some features that OpenBlocks doesn’t (though the app also felt a bit less snappy than OpenBlocks and speed is really important), but the general experience as a new user was a bit much.
foxbee
Thanks for the feedback. I really appreciate it. You don't have to go through that flow. You can just use the docs and run it using digital ocean, docker, linode, kubernetes...
But! We are updating our onboarding to be quicker. In re to app perf, it's a little surprising. It's an area we don't get much neg feedback on so I'm happy you reported it. I'll feed this back to the team.
krithix
(I work at Retool.) We offer a self-hosted version of Retool if you're interested: https://retool.com/self-hosted/ The self-hosted option is also free for teams of up to 5 people under our new free plan.
Multrex
Budibase is my next option until they implement full drag and drop functionality. Also one thing that stopped me from using budibase now is: "pagination not working on tables which use queries or relationship data". Other tools can handle something similar.
foxbee
Fwiw Budibase has drag and drop now (released a couple of weeks ago)
sagaro
I have been using budibase for pretty much all my internal tooling at an Ecom startup. it is pretty good for pretty much most usecases.
jerryxumaomao
Let's try out ILLA! I am one of the team members of ILLA. It's very stable and easy to use. (https://github.com/illacloud/illa-builder) let me know if you have any concerns or questions!
raviparikh
What about Appsmith/Tooljet fell short for you?
Multrex
Appsmith you can't create good looking apps and the responsiveness is not good. Tooljet is good but it didn't click me. Basically I'm not developer but i know good SQL and WordPress. I really want something like Elementor page builder but with low code functionalities.
shuaihan
Thanks for your appreciation. It's stable. We write a lot of tests to make sure everything works.
devdiary
same question
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donqu1xote1
[flagged]
datalopers
Can I import my JSON config export from Retool?
antonyl
I'm a Retool user and going to try writing a script now...
Edit: hmmm, it's pretty hard. I was trying to export a pretty simple app but it looks like there's a ton of features not supported here. (I guess it's pretty hard to build a full development environment with GUIs.) For example, I have a simple table in Retool where I'm doing inline editing. Unfortunately Openblock's table is read-only. So I guess I'll have to manually add a form. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to easily add validations to the form, and it seemed a bit buggy when submitting it too (maybe not properly debouncing?). Also, it looks like the permissioning system is much more rigid, and doesn't support, for example, showing different things in the app depending on the user group?
Looking forward to seeing it mature, but it does feel like there is a lot of surface area. I've tried a few other OSS builders, and I think Retool still comes out ahead when it comes to building actual production use cases. Like another comment said, I do wonder whether there will ever be a true OSS version? Seems like everything is "free for now, will charge for enterprise features later". At that point you might as well just use Retool, since the product is a lot better?
It’s great to see more options out there, though...
CSDude
Yes this would make switches much more possible
_justlilian
Looking sleek! I wish you luck on building this ;)
How do you plan to fund it?
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