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danielvaughn
tekacs
One thing that... might be useful depending on what exactly you're building here is https://hocuspocus.dev, which is an incredibly easy to use server for Y.js.
It's written by the team behind https://tiptap.dev, which is an amazing WYSIWYG text editor, but HocusPocus does a great job of syncing state of a variety of WYSIWYG editors out of the box. Getting the server running is a couple of minutes worth of work and scaling it is quite easy.
In addition to editor state, it also has built-in support for 'Awareness' (info on current users), as well as any other Y.js datatype, including other things with a bridge into Y.js.
qwertox
Related to this is also an example from ProseMirror (which TipTap uses as the editing component) [0][1]
I'm not completely sure, but I think at ProseMirror they're using Yjs [2] for the collaborative editing part. If not, checking out Yjs is worth it in and of itself.
> Yjs is a CRDT implementation that exposes its internal data structure as shared types. Shared types are common data types like Map or Array with superpowers: changes are automatically distributed to other peers and merged without merge conflicts.
> Yjs is network agnostic (p2p!), supports many existing rich text editors, offline editing, version snapshots, undo/redo and shared cursors. It scales well with an unlimited number of users and is well suited for even large documents.
> Conflict-free replicated data types (CRDT) for collaborative editing are an alternative approach to operational transformation (OT). [3]
OT was what Google Wave was based on and I think current colab editing in Google Docs and other of their office products use this.
[0] https://prosemirror.net/examples/collab/#edit-Example
[1] https://marijnhaverbeke.nl/blog/collaborative-editing.html
jahewson
> I think at ProseMirror they're using Yjs
No, ProseMirror has its own approach to sync.
> OT was what Google Wave was based on and I think current colab editing in Google Docs and other of their office products use this.
Yep.
TranquilMarmot
We use tiptap/hocuspocus at Vowel (https://www.vowel.com/) for our collaborative notes editor. It's really slick!
tekacs
Ha, that's good to know -- I've been enjoying using Vowel and was wondering what the in-call notes editor was powered by. Vowel is really slick too -- nice job! :)
danielvaughn
Very nice. One of my hard requirements is that the data itself has to be persisted as a string.
So I’ve had to implement a system where a new yDoc is created when the session begins, and then is converted back into a string when the session ends.
Did you have to do anything similar? And if so was it easy with hocuspocus? I wasn’t able to get a clear answer from the docs.
jahewson
Ooh I like your product.
danielvaughn
I'm using TipTap actually, but decided not to go with hocuspocus since it's in beta (at least that's how they position it).
edit: also, I couldn't get a good look at their documentation outside of the paywall, so I have no idea how they implement the backend. It's important, because I need to persist my documents as html strings, not as y docs.
tekacs
Just so you know, I've used it since the early part of this year and found it to be robust and fully-featured (most functionality comes from Y.js after all), but definitely defer to them on how ready they consider it. :)
zvsmith
+1 for tiptap, and yjs, used both to build https://www.buildmemo.com 's collaborative editor. Did not use hocuspocus but found it trivial to implement our own node ws backend.
danielvaughn
How are you persisting the data? Are you storing them as ydocs?
wahnfrieden
Just fyi your page has text headline cutoff issues on iPhone X
btown
For a collaborative text editor, you need two things: (1) a full-stack system that maintains a running list of data events such that everyone sees everyone else's events eventually, and (2) frontend code that adapts that set of events, along with your text cursor position and current changes, into a cohesive view of a document at any moment in time.
Supabase and Replicache can absolutely help with (1). But for (2) you will need OT or CRDT.
https://docs.yjs.dev/getting-started/a-collaborative-editor is a good place to start - it uses Quill and CRDTs for (2) and can have a persistence layer built in (or custom written, to work on top of Supabase etc.) for (1).
eduardosalaz
Quill Deltas are a very interesting concept, I used Quill myself along with Supabase for realtime sharing (not collaboration) of text and it was almost a breeze.
aboodman
Several teams use yjs on top of Replicache, it's a real easy match.
cpursley
This is where Erlang/Elixir really shines.
https://elixir-lang.org/blog/2020/11/17/real-time-collaborat...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTB4mQyMAmg
And supabase uses elixir to listen to database changes and push then over websockets.
ZeroCool2u
I think what you want is probably https://replicache.dev/
kiwicopple
replicache has a great "Linear" example using Supabase: https://doc.replicache.dev/examples/repliear
chimen
do you have to load third party scripts with replicache?
aboodman
No. All you have to do to use Replicache is embed the `replicache` npm package in your client-side code, and implement the expected REST interface on your server: https://doc.replicache.dev/guide/intro
wahnfrieden
They take rent
aboodman
We'd like to ensure that Replicache continues to exist and that we can continue to support it. So yeah, we proudly charge for it.
kevsim
Definitely feel your pain. We did a full OT implementation for our startup [0] and it was a beast. We based it on Slate.js which has a nice concept of operations that maps nicely to OT, but it was still a lot of work to get it working well (and there are still rough edges we try to improve all of the time). We did base it on Postgres in the backend so really looking forward to what the Supabase team comes up with going forward and seeing if they can help us delete some complex code :-)
Happy to have a chat on collaborative editing anytime if that'd be helpful (email in profile).
samwillis
It’s broadcast and presence they have released, both building blocks for multiplayer. It’s unfortunate that HN rules meant a mods changed the title to the blog posts title. I had gone with a slightly edited (for length) sentence from the second paragraph as I thought it was clearer:
… general availability of Realtime's multiplayer features, Broadcast and Presence.
upupandup
how does the pricing compare to liveblocks? was really offput by their pricing (charging $0.01 for every time a client connects)
chasers
Pricing is still tbd unfortunately. Currently every project gets these features with some limitations:
- 25 concurrent channels
- 25 channel joins per second
- 200 concurrent connections
- 100 broadcast messages per second avg over 60 seconds (not including db changes) (aka 6,000 per minute rolling)
I think these are probably pretty close to where we'll land for free projects. They can be changed per project so if you (or anyone) needs a limit increased in the short term we can do that.
stevenfabre
Hi there,
Im Steven, co-founder of Liveblocks. Thanks for your feedback on pricing. We try to have a fair pricing for everyone and for companies of all sizes.
We’re working on a new pricing that will make this much more affordable, even free in most cases.
Would love to get your feedback on that if you’re up for it?
Thanks!
mathgladiator
I haven't documented it yet, but my serverless board game platform supports collaborative text editing. I'm using Codemirror 6 which has a very simple operational transform scheme, and I baked Codemirror's OT scheme into my back-end. It works great, but this was because I had all the realtime stuff sorted out (connection management, multiplexing, etc...)
AlchemistCamp
I can definitely see how a company built on Elixir, like Supabase, would offer this as part of their product.
Phoenix Framework gives you presence and CDRTs out of the box. I’m not sure if they’re also using Phoenix, but there’s a well-known, heavily used open source solution for the core of this offering and I’d be shocked if they didn’t at least study and/or borrow from it.
Edit: yep, according to the page they’re advised by Chris McCord, the creator of Phoenix.
kiwicopple
hey hn, supabase ceo here
we're excited about this release - it adds a few neat features to our Realtime server[0]. For those who don't read the post (it's quite long), our Realtime server was initially built for subscribing to Postgres changes via websockets. We've added Broadcast functionality (for "ephemeral" messages that don't need to be persisted to Postgres) and Presence (similar to Broadcasts, but it retains an eventually-consistent state between users).
We were planning a larger write-up with all the technical details but it became a bit long. Some highlights:
- Realtime is built with Elixir an Phoenix[1]
- We've moved to a single, global cluster - We're using `Phoenix.Tracker` to globally distribute the Erlang PIDs of all of our Postgres connections. This guarantees there is only a single connection to each database.
- We've implemented a "leaky-bucket" rate-limiter using Erlang's `:counters` module[3] for "per tenant" rate-limiting. We'll move this to a global rate-limiter in the future
- We're currently seeing ~2000 concurrent connected users - it will be interesting to see what this spikes up to now that this is on HN
It's still in heavy development, and we'll make sure to detail all the choices we take as we continue solve problems. A few of the Realtime team will be here answer questions - @chasers, @wenbo, @abc3erl.
[0] Realtime: https://github.com/supabase/realtime
[1] Phoenix Framework: https://www.phoenixframework.org/
[2] rate limiter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaky_bucket
[3] :counters: https://www.erlang.org/doc/man/counters.html
fintechjock
I have almost zero coding experience. Seriously, I've read a couple of books and I've taken a couple of MOOCs and that is about it. I've never 'launched' any project of my own, and I have zero front-end or back-end experience.
I say that because I just used Supabase for the first time, and I was able to build and launch the Slack clone in ~15 minutes. Seriously cool. Thank you for sharing
kiwicopple
That's awesome. I've shared your comment with the team - they will really enjoy your feedback. Good luck building
jahewson
Given that Phoenix.Tracker is eventually consistent, how does it guarantee that there's only one Postgres connection?
chasers
Yeah the database ultimately guarantees that. This lets us distribute the fact that a connection exists (in the form of a PID) so that we don't have to go back to the db on every connection request. This helps quite a bit in the case of a lot of connections coming in very quickly, especially when those connections are geographically far from the database or the database is under load from some other system.
If no connection exists yet, you're right, two connections could try to establish themselves at the same time. In which case, whoever gets to the db first wins. But then the loser is still connected to PubSub, so they'll now start getting changes just the same.
pixelbyindex
Hi Supabase & Team
What are the chances of an official C# library being in the works? I think this would greatly fill the needs for unity devs. I use firebase on almost all game backends because of how quickly I can get set up with auth and a db.
I used supabase in my latest project and it served my needs but there were a few difficulties to overcome. The greatest shortcoming was the lack of real time support (C#), and I had to do everything via REST api.
I am planning on publishing the game as OSS and making some learning videos about it
kiwicopple
They're unofficial, but @acupofjose has been working hard on some community C# libraries:
https://github.com/supabase-community/#client-libraries
They won't support the functionality we outline in our blog post yet (we are still figuring it out on our official JS libraries), but I'll send him your message.
As an aside, if anyone is reading this and wants to help maintain the C# libraries, please reach out.
[0] acupofjose: https://github.com/orgs/supabase-community/people/acupofjose
tandyman
LOVE Supabase. Building a project over the last several months for a client and very excited to launch the beta soon. Thanks for all you are doing...very exciting stuff.
Creating dev and staging environments is a feature that I am most looking forward to. Hopefully that is on the road map.
guykdm
Hey Kiwi, any chance of getting temporal.io style features for supabase edge functions? would love to have a one-stop-shop solution for all my real and not-real time needs.
kiwicopple
(I'm assuming you want a queue/workflow engine)
Temporal has done an incredible job of ensuring there will be no side-effects (even with external systems), so I doubt we'll be able to do something as extensive as they have. That said, we will probably build a simple Postgres queue/workflow engine (similar to pgboss[0]). It will live in the Postgres database (as an extension), but will be nicely integrated with Edge Functions. We haven't started this yet, so I don't have any timelines.
[0] pgboss: https://github.com/timgit/pg-boss
joisig
Take a look at Oban, it very well might fit the bill.
swyx
have you tried Azure Durable Functions? just curious if youve evaluated all the durable workflow solutions out there and what you came away with
timwis
Really exciting! I’ve been checking your blog every couple weeks waiting for this release.
Does the global cluster architecture make it much harder to self-host supabase? Not that I plan to, but having the promise of portability is really important.
samokhvalov
It would be great to see monitoring of this thing under load – I mean the Postgres part of it, how it's loaded, how many connections used, query analysis, etc.
kiwicopple
cool - we can include that in the next blog post
cpursley
Any chance of open sourcing the rate limiter bit for Elixir?
chasers
Yeah I plan to. Have some things to prep next week for ElixirConf but am going to get back to it after that.
maxloh
Isn't it open source? https://github.com/supabase/realtime
cpursley
As a stand-alone Elixir package.
samwillis
This is really neat, I have been keeping an eye on Supabase, this (presence) is the feature that will finally push me to build a side project with it. I have one in mind.
Anyone from Supabase here, do you have any plans to build in support for CRDT toolkits such as Yjs or AutoMerge for these features? It would make working with them so much easer if there was a plug and play backend.
The one other thing I would love to see next from them is an offline sync product, so you could partially sync a users dataset to their device and save back any changes later (bonus points for then combing that with CRDTs). Maybe the WASM Postgres yesterday [0] could be a foundation for such a product.
kiwicopple
> CRDT
It's definitely something we'll support (we mention it briefly in the blog post). We'll extend this service so that it works well with WebRTC, and we have a few ideas for making it easy for development.
> Maybe the WASM Postgres yesterday
This was mind-blowing! Very cool what the crunchy team have done there. It would be awesome to replicate from a remote Postgres database to a "per-user" database to the browser. I think WASM support needs to improve before it can become generally useful for offline-sync, but the tech seems withing reach.
We're working on various ideas for offline-sync, but the Realtime server will be central to whatever implementation we land on.
pcthrowaway
Any idea if Realtime might support Postgres streaming replication in the future? We were incredibly excited to use Realtime with TimescaleDB, but couldn't get it working.
I assumed it was related to https://docs.timescale.com/timescaledb/latest/how-to-guides/... (even though we were only running it single-node, my understanding is that Realtime works by tapping into the replication feed)
kiwicopple
Realtime uses logical replication, and from your link it looks like it should work with Timescale (although not recommended):
> Using logical replication with TimescaleDB is not recommended, as it requires schema synchronization between the primary and replica nodes and replicating partition root tables, which are not currently supported.
As long as logical replication is supported, this won't be an issue for Realtime because the purpose is to receive data changes (which come in a JSON format) and the end-user doesn't need to persist schema modifications.
> but couldn't get it working
If you send me some error logs, I can take a look or forward to one of the team.
> support Postgres streaming replication
This is the first time I've heard it requested - I don't think it's something we'd do unless there was a good reason and strong demand. If we were to do any work in this direction we'd prefer to try contribute DDL streaming to PostgreSQL's logical streaming. We've been thinking about this for a while (Michel has built metagration - https://github.com/michelp/metagration which has prompted a few ideas for core patches)
samwillis
Both of those sound super exiting!
I previously experimented with building an offline syncing CRDT db using Pouch/CouchDB and combining it with Yjs for automatic conflict resolution. But Postgres would be so much better as the foundation. If only I had time it is something I would love to work on…
kiwicopple
perhaps we can help you find some time (contact details are in my profile)
lagrange77
> We're working on various ideas for offline-sync, but the Realtime server will be central to whatever implementation we land on.
Are you also working on optimistic updates (which may be related to offline-sync)?
kiwicopple
I should have been more clear - when I say "working on", it means "debating internally what would be the best long-term strategy" (from a technical POV).
But yes, optimistic updates is one of the requirements. In the meantime, if you need something great, I can recommend Replicache and WatermelonDB - both are excellent.
danielvaughn
Yeah this actually confused me a bit - at first I thought "multiplayer" meant CRDT, but now I'm not sure. I got really excited there for a bit, lol.
Xeoncross
Agree, I would love to see CRDT (or related) multiplayer resolution as that's a big time sink for a lot of new collaboration product ideas around dashboards, documents, spreadsheets, online games, mindmaps, and flows (like figma).
mmastrac
What's the difference between Supabase open-source and the paid versions? Is that just around hosting?
EDIT: Googling around yields a somewhat hostile discussion from last year: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26637360
... but it looks like you _can_ self-host? https://supabase.com/docs/guides/hosting/docker
kiwicopple
Yes, you can self host and everything is open source (including the Dashboard[0]). Everything is either MIT, Apache2, or PostgreSQL licensed.
> difference between Supabase open-source and the paid versions
On the paid version we handle some of additional database management (like daily backups, PITR, etc). These are technically available for self-hosting too, because the database is just a Postgres database, but I point it out here because it's not something you'll get "out of the box" from the Docker setup.
Our philosophy with open source is "offer everything" and then charge for usage. There aren't any features completely gated. Our Enterprise plan just adds additional SLAs and support packages for our cloud platform.
In addition to the self-hosting docs you've linked, in our GitHub you can find the Docker files[0] and some community-developed self-hosting strategies [2]
[0]https://supabase.com/blog/supabase-studio
[1] docker: https://github.com/supabase/supabase/tree/master/docker
[2] community: https://github.com/supabase-community/#self-hosting
atonse
Didn’t realize open source wasn’t hobbled at all. Always assumed it would be missing features.
Definitely trying you guys out now.
mmastrac
Thanks, those docs seem pretty clear!
didip
It seems like Elixir is the language of choice for building a large scale real time solution, then?
majestic5762
I've been watching Supabase for a long time and wanted to try it out. I had the chance to use it in a couple of projects that I started, but I feared it will cause me problems down the road, and eventually I decided to build the backend services myself. I'm comfortable with NestJS which is not supported in Deno, and I felt that my productivity would've been harmed if I picked up Supabase. But definitely I have to build up confidence by starting a personal project. Is there anyone who uses Supabase in production? Do you have any feedback?
abcdjdjd
I don't get the advantage of using supabase or things like it. It feels like you are basically relying on a third party to do the work for you and you are paying them to do it.
Doesn't seem portable at all. If you make your own code, you can move it wherever you want in whatever system you want. It seems like if you use this product, it will get you stuck in that environment and if you need to upgrade, then you are going to have to do the work later on anyways.
What exactly is so great about this product? I'm not saying its bad, I'm just not fully understanding the advantages of using it?
Why would someone want to use this over something like a framework for the backend (that is free) and a database they want and then host it wherever they want? I don't really get why someone who knows how to code would want to pay extra money to build a backend.
jononomo
If you "know how to code" then why did you buy a laptop with an operating system that someone else wrote instead of building your own laptop and writing your own operating system for it so that you have more portability and control?
nl
> It feels like you are basically relying on a third party to do the work for you and you are paying them to do it.
Yes, which is great sometimes.
> I don't really get why someone who knows how to code would want to pay extra money to build a backend.
Because reinventing the wheel isn't the best use of time. It's more fun to work on interesting problems than yet another backend, again.
> Doesn't seem portable at all. If you make your own code, you can move it wherever you want in whatever system you want
You realize it is all open source and can be self-hosted, right?
jononomo
You're going to have to pay to host your Rails/Django/Whatever app anyway, and you're also going to have to pay for a hosted Postgres solution, so why not just get them both in one deal and then also dispense with the need for a bunch of Rails code thanks to the auth and REST api that is built in to Supabase.
yawnxyz
Saves me a ton of time to use Supabase or something similar — as a single developer / "indie hacker" this frees up time to work on other things, or for more naps :)
Also, I don't have to worry about my code being terrible, either.
jayd16
Is server authroity and broadcast permissions handled or left as a task for the user? Can channels be locked down to a list of users? Can users be kicked from a channel? Is message spam/flooding/DDOSing users in a channel protected?
Quickly skimming the docs, I don't see any examples of this.
Server authority and some of this security can be added app level but I think the message throttling needs to be built in if its going to support any kind of pvp/untrusted peer scenario.
Anyone know the story there?
wenbo
> Is server authroity and broadcast permissions handled or left as a task for the user? Can channels be locked down to a list of users?
Broadcast permissions is currently not handled by the server and left to the developer to implement. We have discussed this internally and will prioritize Broadcast authorization accordingly because we've gotten feedback about this from a number of developers.
> Can users be kicked from a channel?
Not at the moment but again we've gotten feedback about this as well and will prioritize it.
> Is message spam/flooding/DDOSing users in a channel protected?
We have built rate limiting and other protections so bad actors don't affect the good in the cluster. A colleague of mine posted these limitations of Supabase Realtime to prevent abuse: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32511586.
rosmax_1337
This is intresting. I've been thinking about using the web for more multiplayer games for a while, and a tool like this is more or less exactly what I'm looking for. Noone wants to make netcode.
(Comment also acts as a bookmark) :)
shakezula
multiplayer web is at a cool spot right now. I’m writing an app in graphQL / Go and it’s been awesome for real-time player experiences.
kolanos
There's a "favorite" link you can use above to bookmark.
wiradikusuma
Why would I use Supabase instead of Firebase since the latter is more mature and has richer ecosystem?
[v] Can host myself
[v] Can access from China (since Firebase is blocked)
[v] ...anything else?
(Btw they should put this in FAQ or something)
burggraf
Supabase developer here. Coming from Firebase myself, the biggest driver for me can be summed up with: relational data. PostgreSQL rocks.
jitl
Postgres is more mature than Firebase
digianarchist
Firebase doesn't even have good search support and it's a Google product...
gitgud
That has always annoyed me, the one thing that isn't integrated into Firebase...
wenbo
Wen Bo from the Supabase Realtime here!
Also, every single person on the Supabase team actively does support so if you would like world class support than look no further!
erulabs
Congrats to the Supabase team! Presence in general is a problem I'm tired of solving - so this will be a nice replacement for in-house solutions!
gavi
I built backend for my typing app using supabase with row level security(RLS) and OAuth providers to track.
Supabase + SvelteKit + Cloudflare
berjin
I have a multiplayer web game also on SvelteKit but I created my own little sockets server with Go and Redis streams running on a tiny k8s cluster. I'm curious how much traffic you're getting and how much it costs to run it.
shermablanca
Kudos on this! It's really nicely done and works well.
barryhennessy
Congrats on the launch and hitting HN's front page. Do you mind if I ask how your example site (multiplayer.dev) scaled?
I'm super curious about realtime multiplayer solutions (and I don't think I'm alone). But I find a great lack of info on what running this kind of app would cost. I come from the old-school hold-no-state, request->response->gtfo mentality, and I always have the _feeling_ that it'd be expensive to scale. Not just holding the websocket open, but how much effort do you expend parsing the WAL? How chatty is that kind of persistence mechanism? What other 'gotchas' are there etc.
I'd love nothing more than to dispel that vague feeling with data. I know it wouldn't come close to a full performance analysis, but throwing a few datapoints on a chart would help get a ballpark idea and tune my hype->action conversion.
I could nail down a pile of questions, but I'm sure you know better than I how to measure your own systems. But roughly I'm wondering: - how many users did you have? - how much traffic did you get? - how much would/did it cost to host on supabase? - how much resources did the database/realtime components consume?
Congrats again on the launch and have a nice weekend.
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So I'm just at the tail end of a project where I'm attempting to build a collaborative text editor, and it's been absolute hell. I figured it would be a tricky problem, but I had no idea how far down the rabbit hole goes. I kept thinking, gosh, there's gotta be a backend service that bakes this in, if there isn't it would be a great business opportunity.
I almost want to scrap all of my code and move it to Supabase. Congrats to the team on this launch, very cool.
edit: actually, after thinking it through, I'm not clear on what Supabase is calling multiplayer. Presence is one thing, but when I think multiplayer, I'm thinking conflict resolution. Is this an OT/CRDT implementation? Or is it just presence?