USB-C hubs and my slow descent into madness (2021)

I've found https://dancharblog.wordpress.com/2021/02/05/usb4-tb4-docks/ has a nice comparison of the many very similar (only slightly differentiated) thunderbolt 4 docks.

It notes that the Kingston, Sonnet, and others are rebrands of the Goodway DBD1100.

And it still costs as much as a computer.

Strongly agree with this! I have the now discontinued eGPU Pro and it rocks. Is normally completely silent and it functions as an actual thunderbolt dock. It’s one of the few eGGUa with a secondary thunderbolt port you can use with a Thunderbolt monitor. (It also supports USB-PD for fast charging an iPad). Half the USB-A ports are 5 Gb/s. I do wish it had etherneT though.

I also recommend the TS3 Plus, though it’s not as rock solid. Mine sometimes has a high frequency noise issue when the DP port is in use, though your resolution changes the hum’s volume. Also it freezes up occasionally, but I used it for 2 years without many troubles.

Yeah, I have a Razer Core X eGPU that works really great

If you were to install monitor control, can you adjust the brightness of both monitors or just one?

Although this solution doesn't really solve any of the fundamental issues with cable rigidity and easy to unplug usb-c/tb ports or the continuous "add another abstraction layer" problems of the ever expanding complexity of do everything on a single cable standard, OWC sells a ClingOn adhesive backed usb-c/tb lockable connector which prevents my cables from unplugging constantly when the wind blows and triggering the "why the hell does my accessory not work oh it's unplugged loop". For a mere $5 each!

My caldigit came with the flimsiest TB3 cable I’ve ever used. No issues at all. Even my much stiffer Apple TB cable works fine.

I'm running a CalDigit Connect 10G on a relatively high-end NUC and it's great for a quick little Plex box that also sits on my 10G network segment next to a TrueNAS box doing 2x10G on DAC cables with LACP on a Chelsio T6225-CR.

I had bad luck with the QNAP QNA-T310G1S and Sonnet Solo 10G SFP+ (surprising as their stuff is usually rock-solid) -- both based on the AQC100S chipset and the aQuantia AQtion driver just didn't work for me under LTS Ubuntu.

I have a TS3, but it’s been hard to get a second or a TS4 lately.

So, this is really random, but if you can open up the case and figure out what is whining, folding up tinfoil neatly in half about a dozen times will make a really effective shield and cut like 95% of the whine. I found out about this trick from an open-source synth (PreenFM 2, incredible little frequency modulation synth) that had some whine due to the display. Sticking the thick piece of tinfoil between the display and the PCB boosted the SNR an almost unbelievable amount. Give it a shot, it only costs time and tinfoil! Be sure to stick some electrical tape around anything it might contact though, so you don't short anything out.

I've had my ts3 for a couple years now. I just noticed a pretty bad coil whine on mine lately. I'm not sure if it's always been there and my environment's changed or the device just suddenly started making the noise.

I usually can detect coil whines to an annoying degree, but I don't hear one in my TS3 Plus. Maybe your ears are more sensitive than mine!

Coil whine is about the only time having tinnitus works in my favor.

I have two 3x4k display Startech hubs, and one developed a very audible coil whine, the other did not. It was so bad it landed in a drawer.

Otherwise both worked fine allowing me to drive 3 screens on the OG M1 mbp. They each cost around 350 eur though.

That sounds like exactly the issue I've just described when I plug a USB C display into mine. I actually notice it, albeit to a much lesser degree, when I move a USB mouse connected to the dock.

Probably time for a change I guess.

I hear nothing from mine, but this may well be an example of me being 52.

The port arrangement on the front/back of that looks identical to the Kensington and Sonnet docks mentioned upthread, so I'd suspect that Razer are another vendor of a skinned reference design. (Though they're on the cheaper end of the spectrum so far, unless someone turns up the Aliexpress version.)

I have used the dock with windows and Linux machines and seen solar issues btw. So I would expect the same with an Intel mac

I have the TS3. It's been great BUT.... the Mac has not been great with it in the following ways.

(1) I keep my MBP closed. It take 10-30 seconds for it to wake up on keypress. That's so long that I often have no way to tell if it noticed I pressed key.

(2) If XCode is debugging and the screen sleeps then MacOS 12 never recovers unless I disconnect the cable, open the lid, get it wake up on the laptop monitor, and then plug it back in and finally close the lid.

I get why #2 is rare and therefore not fixed but still (T_T)

Sounds to me that you for some reason got the older USB-C 3.1 / Gen 1 docks those are limited to 5gbps which means no 4K@60 the Gen 2 USB-C / TB3 docks work quite flawlessly as long as you ofc plug them into a Gen 2 or TB port…

Argh, DisplayLink :(.

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/usb-graphics-adapter,30...

As another commenter stated, bleh to DisplayLink. Also, what monster designed it so 1! of the 4 USB-A ports is upside down? This is why we cannot have nice things.

You could do it the same if you had an array of ports (as long as one of them is USB-C). You would just also have the possibility to use the other ports without a hub.

> why even bother with buying a laptop in the first place. If the goal is to hook up two 4K monitors

That might not be a full-time goal. Some want a machine that works on the move but can be expanded to bigger screens and such when at certain locations (office and/or home). A laptop and dock allow this compromise.

It is a compromise, not one suitable for all. But it is the list inconvenient option for many.

Yeah, the thing too about desktop vs laptop is not just core count but TDP. An Intel 12900K on an OC can draw like 400W ( https://wccftech.com/intel-core-i9-12900k-overclocked-to-5-3... ) vs a laptop that will get you a max of like 115w for turbo (<10 seconds at a time) and 45w under normal circumstances ( https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/132215/... ).

And good luck getting anything close to RTX 3090Ti performance in a laptop. It'd basically be a toasted oven on your lap.

Desktops can just sink a ton more heat, and as process shrinks and die size increases have gotten us less and less additional performance each year, we're just pushing power up to the point now where a TOTL gaming desktop is pulling close to 1KW. A laptop will never come close. If you really do want to try a literal desktop CPU in a laptop, there are mfgs like Eurocom and Sager that will sell you one, just don't expect it not to throttle a lot under actual heavy workloads.

Presumably people have a dedicated workstation that they use most of the time, but not infrequently want to have a portable computer that they can take places (cafes/trips/transport/co-working spaces/etc).

I find it surprising that the appeal of the above would be confusing for anyone.

Well, I mean, 2 4k monitors is possible on a laptop in laptop configuration these days (4k internal + 4k add-on attached slide-out), so I don't see why it's an unreasonable thing to have where you dock a laptop.

Sure, you could buy a separate desktop for that, but if you also go portable, don't want to bother with some kind of online sync solution, and want to move between laptop mode for on the go and something docked to big monitors and a no laptop keyboard/mouse for when you are at your primary workspace, getting a good laptop plus a dock rather than spending more for a laptop plus a separate desktop which makes you have to compromise on syncing somehow makes a lot of sense.

(Obviously, if you need desktop processing power, thermal envelopes mean that laptops aren't going to be competitive. But if that's your need, you aren't going to be looking at laptops, and how to connect peripherals isn't going to be your limiting factor.)

I have multiple desks. Each of them has their own docking station.

The only things that move around are my laptop and I. I don't want to carry around a desktop computer and plug in power, screens, and USB hub every time I switch desks.

Yes, but companies keep wanting me to use the corporate laptop, not my much more capable desktop on a dedicated drive. So technically a good dock is not a bad investment in that scenario since you aren't paying for the laptop.

I’m with you on this. I’m a FAANG software engineer who does hardware stuff too and I have a 2020 MacBook Air with 2 (two!) USB-C ports. One for charging, one for other stuff. In my two years of owning the device I have not once ever been frustrated needing the third port. I do quite often use both of the two ports, but even needing three seems to never happen in my use case.

I don’t use external monitors with that device which probably makes a difference but IMO the point still stands - I think there is a silent majority of people who don’t want or care about more ports.

This thread is making me think there is some breed of programmer out there that has 8 work desks in their house and switches between them sequentially every 5 minutes.

Or acetone a.k.a. the pure form of nail polish remover.

I live in a world overrun by capitalism and inundated with ads. The inescapable consumerism is sickening. That it’s the norm to run ads on practically every consumer product is absurd, and I feel gaslit that apparently everyone else is comfortable with it. We pay to remove ads from many services—why does my thousand-dollar bicycle still have a permanent billboard on the side? Have I not paid enough? Removing a logo from my life is one small reprieve from the dystopia.

Why should I pay a company to advertise for them?

Amazon Basics logo (or other generic company) looks a bit tacky

I'm not the same user, though I also prefer no/minimal logos on devices or clothing.

The practical advantage of no logos is that this avoids judgement. People may look down on you for spending so much to get an item from a brand, while other people might look down on you for spending too little. You could just not care about others' judgement, though other people could still treat you differently. Separately, there is the ethical issue of whether one frames visible logos as 'free advertising,' which might not be desirable to do.

The sociology text "Class: A Guide Through the American Status System" by Paul Fussell also explores why some people deliberately wear brands, while others avoid them.

On a (potential over-analysis) of why some people deliberately have branded items: ""Legible clothing" is Alison Lurie's useful term to designate things like T-shirts or caps with messages on them you're supposed to read and admire. [...] When proles assemble to enjoy leisure, they seldom appear in clothing without words on it. As you move up the classes and the understatement principle begins to operate, the words gradually disappear, to be replaced, in the middle and upper- middle classes, by mere emblems, like the Lacoste alligator. Once, ascending further, you've left all such trademarks behind, you may correctly infer that you are entering the purlieus of the upper class itself."

"Brand names today possess a totemistic power to confer distinction on those who wear them. By donning legible clothing you fuse your private identity with external com- mercial success, redeeming your insignificance and becoming, for the moment, somebody. [...] And this need is not the proles' alone. Witness the T-shirts and carryalls stamped with the logo of The New York Review of Books, which convey the point "I read hard books," or printed with portraits of Mozart and Haydn and Beethoven, which assure the world, "I am civilized."

On why some people deliberately avoid logos: "X people are independent-minded, free of anxious regard for popular shibboleths, loose in carriage and demeanor. [...] Since there's no one they think worth impressing by mere appearance, X people tend to dress for themselves alone, which means they dress comfortably, and generally "down." [...] If the Xs ever descend to legible clothing, the words-unlike BUDWEISER or U.S.A. DRINKING TEAM-are original and interesting, although no comment on them is ever expected. Indeed, visibly to notice them would be bad form."

The TL;DR of the whole hypothesis by Fussell is that some people avoid having brands on their physical stuff because they don't want others to see a logo on an item; connect the logo to values of a corporation as part of that corporation's "brand identity"; and make assumptions about that person's personal identity based on that brand identity.

"Project Farm" on YouTube does really great tool reviews with zero BS. There are differences between major tool brands and it's not just a matter of same factory, different brand sticker like with a lot of electronics. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpjBJ8aQ3NE is a good example. It's pretty hard to go wrong with any of the major players these days, more about what color you like or their tool ecosystem. I'm into Milwaukee and like a whole lot of their tools, so I ended up getting about a dozen of them over the years. Milwaukee tends to be on or near the top in terms of performance, and while that might not be necessary for occasional non-professional use, I have done a few things with them where I was glad to have the extra power or just have a well-designed tool that is easy to use. Festool is even more premium but when I started buying Milwaukee they didn't have any or maybe only very few cordless tools, and they were too expensive for me at the time. Home Depot does pretty awesome holiday sales on Milwaukee if you keep an eye out, and eBay also has great deals on "tool only" once you have some batteries in your ecosystem of choice, as people do things like buy combo packs and sell the individual tools they don't want. Milwaukee also has excellent batteries that while pricey, are again relatively easy to find deals on if you keep an eye out.

Hand tools are sometimes more about feel than actual performance differences, but over the years I've come to appreciate (and be able to easily afford) the nicer stuff. It's nice not stripping Phillips head screws now that I've got really nice drivers with excellent sharp grippy tips in all the different sizes to properly fit. I grew up with the poorly-made fake chrome set of "jewelers" screw drivers that I'm sure many of y'all also learned on. I guess it makes me appreciate Wiha / PB Swiss / Wera / Felo / Klein MIUSA / custom boutique stuff (check out Scout Leather Co and CountyComm TPSK for some of the best precision multi-bit drivers I've used) more now.

On hand tools, Project Farm reviews those too, e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP4uECoH8cc for torque wrenches.

I admit that there are some made-up Chinese brands that are just slapping a random name on stuff coming out of the same few factories and selling on Amazon (then changing the name if they get bad reviews) for tools, but that's only really at the bottom of the market. Mid and top-tier tools do actually have measurable performance differences in many cases. Whether that's worth it to you is for y'all to decide. I just really hate ruining a project / breaking stuff because of bad tools that can't do the job, and I dislike supporting companies that make knock-off designs (i.e. they don't pay for their own R&D) out of cheaper, weaker metals then selling look-alikes at still-too-much-for-what-you're-getting prices. There's actually a name for this in the bicycle world: "bike shaped objects".

Problem basing on reviews is that people mostly only review when they receive and test the product for the first time.

Not many will bother finding the item and review it n months ago when the bad capacitors dies or they gave up frustrated by a recurring but intermitent issue.

Ah, of course, but dongles >:

Unfortunately I've never really needed USB-C for my desktops/servers - primarily my laptops.

What do you mean Thunderbolt over USB-C. You can find converters? Link me please Senpai.

> Look for monitors which advertise thunderbolt and a charging wattage.

I have no idea what led you to believe that someone searching for monitors that charge MacBook pros with thunderbolt did not checked if the monitor charged MacBook pros with thunderbolt.

Yup, and I can swap between them by plugging my laptop in to the USB-C while it's turned in, input autodetection handles the rest.

We have three StarTech docks since November or December. No coil whine so far, except for the Realtek NIC (which works out-of-the-box on Macs, but is meh otherwise), we didn't have any issues with it.

https://www.startech.com/en-eu/cards-adapters/tb3cdk2dpue

I don't think a MacBook Air M1 has a lot places to add ports [0]. The latest generation of MacBook Pros bring a lot of the ports back [1], so that point doesn't hold anymore.

Also, of all the MacBook Air users I know, I'm the heaviest user in terms of processor load, and given that it's the company computer, it wouldn't be my first choice for a personal MacBook (in fact, I have a personal MacBook Pro).

At the end of the day, having a featherweight computer which can do all my work related tasks and some heavier stuff and doesn't needs its charger and ports most of the time is really a spoiling thing. However, for heavy development and photographic work, nothing beats on board ports and a bigger screen.

[0]: https://www.apple.com/v/macbook-air/n/images/specs/mba_charg...

[1]: https://images.macrumors.com/t/MsiVifkTbdhdqh2z2tvJZXIuH80=/...

They do have a replacement consumer monitor in 2022 [1], but in the meantime, they were selling and supporting the LG UltraFine 5K [2].

I haven't bought the new studio display, but the Thunderbolt Display was great and the LG UltraFine 5K is, too. Used both as daily drivers (and docking stations) for years. I only haven't bought the new one because that LG one is still going strong.

Regardless: my point is that this certainly seems to be "the vision." You don't need a docking station because your monitor functions as one. If I had to guess, they probably think normal people don't want to buy a docking station and then deal with a series of poorly-integrated peripherals.

[1] https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/apple-studio-display/stan... [2] https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT210205

Yeah, I don't think I'd ever call it a perfect solution. FWIW though, I think most of the implementations I've seen leverage the preexisting I/O controllers on the laptop itself, which means the only added cost is whatever the proprietary docking connector costs on the BOM.

I remember I did receive a Dell dock complete with a spring mounted adapter for the actual laptop.

I wasn't thinking that though - I was thinking something like the ones reviewed in the article but perhaps with a Apple Thunderbolt connector to prevent them from having to support Windows PC users.

And if one of the tiny wires breaks and causes a short, not only can you cause a fire but you also damage the connector in the laptop which can only be fixed by replacing the motherboard, which is more expensive than the laptop itself and not covered by warranty.

What missing functionality?

When chips die, that's not something the standard could affect.

When a USB to Ethernet converter happens to be on the same circuit board as an actual hub, the USB standard isn't responsible for the Ethernet part.

The screen connections are pretty much just passthrough. That's the narrowest you can get.

And it doesn't sound like the USB ports on the hubs had any problems.

If you split things up by standard, you'd have a USB hub that always works, with a flaky ethernet converter plugged in one port and a flaky HDMI converter plugged in another port.

This has nothing to do with USB 3 or USB-C, though. The same shortcomings were true of previous USB standards, it just was rarely feasible to run so many different peripherals through a single hub.

We have been told, repeatedly, about the "next great thing" in standards. The EU mandated micro-USB (ugh!). 7 years ago we were being hyped up about USB-C.

Here we are 7 years later, and the SAME lighting cable apple has had for 10 years (!!) is more sturdy, has great low latency (if you compare to USB-C for music making the difference is crazy), has fantastic reliable power delivery.

I mean, after 10 years you'd think the new standards would be absolutely crushing Apple's old tech.

But I can't get the low latency on USB-C for audio I get on lighting (anyone know why? Both are wires) 10+ years later.

It's maddening. And the power delivery and speeds of USB-C/USB3 are just crazily all over the map. You can plug into a blue USB3 port and go no faster than you did on an old port!