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confident_inept
the_snooze
>I would pay a premium for a TV with no internet connection.
I bought a Samsung QLED TV recently, and it works fine without an internet connection. I did give it an ethernet connection to grab firmware updates, and it downloaded a bunch of ads and crap to clutter the home screen. Luckily, unplugging the ethernet cord and factory-resetting the device got rid of the garbage and kept the updated firmware.
CoastalCoder
I bought a Samsung Q90 about 6 months ago.
FYI I was able to update the firmware via USB stick without much hassle.
confident_inept
I can always deny internet via MAC address, but a modern panel that just turns on instantly and works is the stuff of dreams.
colechristensen
You can buy them, commercial displays, but they are... quite expensive.
knolan
I bought an LG C1 and paired it with a new Apple TV 4K. I refused all the TVs EULAs for its smart features and only let it update firmware.
Painless experience and no ads.
jxcl
LG tvs will let you update firmware over a flash drive! It’s a bit fiddly but worth it in my opinion to avoid the internet connection.
assttoasstmgr
I can't be the only one that thinks this (DNS blocking) is an exceptionally poor solution to this problem. It's essentially whack-a-mole. You either A) don't allow your smart TV ip address to egress traffic to the internet or B) don't connect it at all. There are some domains in that list like the *.cloudfront.net that might change over time.
caymanjim
You're not wrong, but it is whack-a-mole, and this is one of our hammers.
Groxx
Part of the problem is that it's a rather terrible, leaky, and easily-worked-around hammer. It mostly only continues to work because they haven't bothered to do simple things to prevent their more technical users from blocking it.
heavyset_go
I agree despite using DNS blocking myself. DNS blocking can easily be mitigated against with DoH or DoT at the application level. It's only a matter of time before advertisers start using either to bypass DNS blocking and serve ads.
nobody9999
>I agree despite using DNS blocking myself. DNS blocking can easily be mitigated against with DoH or DoT at the application level. It's only a matter of time before advertisers start using either to bypass DNS blocking and serve ads.
DoH/DoT are just the camel's nose under the tent. Just wait (perhaps it's already happening) until TV manufacturers install 4g/5g modems in their devices.
At which point, there will be a market for TV-shaped faraday cages. Or not, as that will make actually watching the TV difficult/impossible.
This stuff really ticks me off. Grrr!
Groxx
Computer monitors are overwhelmingly "dumb", as well as having far lower latency and far higher refresh rates.
And also more expensive :) I wish I knew if that was because the crapware and ads on smart TVs are actually reducing the cost, or if it's just that smart TVs use crap hardware and software by comparison. Given how laggy they can be, that wouldn't surprise me.
NavinF
I think mid-tier TVs are just a higher volume product with thinner margins compared to mid-tier monitors. The average american loves their 4K TV, but would never upgrade from the 1080p 60hz monitor they stole from work.
If you get quotes from chinese sellers on panelook, you'll find that monitor panels+drivers are cheaper than TVs with the same specs, even at 1pc pricing.
bee_rider
Almost certainly this is a 'little bit of a, little bit of b' type situation, right?
At least in terms of the actual display parts. The smart TV probably has some processing capabilities that are incomparably better than what you'd get in a monitor. This is, of course, used to display ads. However, the ads are necessary to subsidize the cost of the powerful SOC... wait, why do we need the SOC again?
saxonww
I've wondered about this. Are the TV-sized 'gaming monitors' smart tvs? Looking at a couple of OLED ones - Aorus FO48U, Alienware AW5520QF - it doesn't look like it. No wireless, and they are expensive.
It's not clear whether they have HDCP, but... surely they must? That's table stakes for a computer monitor.
infinityio
To my knowledge, almost all modern monitors sold today are HDCP compliant
goosedragons
HDCP is a requirement for newer versions of HDMI/DisplayPort to meet spec.
freedomben
I think it's a little of both. The TV market is amazingly competitive, so it's not uncommon to find sales that are at or near cost. I suspect the reason there are so many players still in the game is because the monetary value of ads and data aggregation is really high.
nobody9999
>I would pay a premium for a TV with no internet connection.
No premium required. Just set your TV's with a static IP address and block outbound access to that address at your firewall.
I also blackhole the DNS entries of specific hosts that the TV attempts to contact. Blocking the IP address is sufficient, but I choose to nuke it from orbit. It's the only way to be sure. ;)
Nextgrid
> Just set your TV's with a static IP address and block outbound access to that address at your firewall.
If you're assuming the TV is malicious, why trust it to honor that static IP setting? Doesn't even have to be malicious - a bug or carelessness could mean that it temporarily falls back to DHCP for some time in the boot process.
A separate VLAN (or wireless network) with the entire thing isolated and not being able to talk to anything is the way to go, but there just aren't many reasons to connect it to a network to begin with so save your time and just don't.
nobody9999
>If you're assuming the TV is malicious, why trust it to honor that static IP setting? Doesn't even have to be malicious - a bug or carelessness could mean that it temporarily falls back to DHCP for some time in the boot process.
I guess you missed this part, eh?
I also blackhole the DNS entries of specific hosts
that the TV attempts to contact. Blocking the IP
address is sufficient, but I choose to nuke it from
orbit. It's the only way to be sure. ;)reacharavindh
I really hope I’m not missing a silly point. I always buy a TV that has the specs I need and can afford, and have a steadfast rule that they are forbidden from ever connecting to my WiFi. No firmware updates! - if it does not work when I bought it, it goes back. If it works, I’m fine if it does the same job for its life. What am I missing? Isn't every smart TV in the market a dumb TV if you don’t ever give it the keys to your network?
MattPalmer1086
That's exactly how I do it.
fire
Is it an LG? ( Mine is under Settings > General > Home Settings > Home Auto Launch )
Ansil849
> I would pay a premium for a TV with no internet connection.
Why pay a premium when this is something that is extremely easy to achieve? Simply don't connect your TV to the internet. Criteria met. If you want to go further, you can also easily remove the WiFi antenna and ethernet ports.
tikkabhuna
I totally agree. My Sony TV has lost sound multiple times. A full restart is the only solution and that takes a few minutes.
Everything is so slow. Back when Freeview started being a thing in the UK, TVs then had a rapid TV Guide built in and everything felt instant. Now every screen change is a pause. I've got a PS5 so I'm much happier using that for apps.
It feels like feature phones were slow and laggy, we then got responsive smartphones. TVs were responsive, now they're slow and laggy.
TeamXe
For those who are still looking for dumb tvs these are the best ones available as far as I'm aware. Bought one last year and works as expected. https://www.sceptre.com/TV/4K-UHD-TV-category1category73.htm...
jim-jim-jim
For any Australians reading, JB Hifi still has dumb Blaupunkt TVs. They're neither big nor 4k, but if you're weird like me and feel technology peaked in 2009, they're perfect.
markovbot
Is there something wrong with just buying a normal TV and not giving it your wifi password?
dtgriscom
The fear is that the TV will still be annoying, with popup menus and "Oooh! No WiFi! You need to fix this!" alerts.
omginternets
A “normal” tv doesn’t need a wifi password ;)
MerelyMortal
Just as long as you never have any guests that want to be helpful and connect it to the Internet either via your guest wifi or their own phone's hotspot so they can watch their Netflix or whatever on it.
throw0101a
Or you accidentally connect it to your streaming box (Apple TV, Roku) with an HDMI cable with Ethernet:
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#HDMI_Ethernet_and_Audio_R...
drexlspivey
They soon will be able to connect to your neighbour's wifi via Amazon Sidewalk
Nextgrid
This gets raised all the time but I just don't see it being necessary - the vast majority is happy to voluntarily provide it with an internet connection. The ones like us who fight it is a very small minority not worth spending on including modems/Sidewalk/etc in every TV.
MerelyMortal
I wanted an 85" TV, and unfortunately Sceptre only makes up to 75".
I ended up with a Costco 85" LG and unplugged the WiFi card before turning it on, and so far it's worked very well for me.
I wish I could have voted with my wallet on this.
m463
Unfortunately LG has terrible sound - but a soundbar works well.
Unfortunately the LG soundbars - which integrate well with the TV - use a wifi based wireless subwoofer. the soundbar becomes a wifi access point.
There don't appear to be any wired soundbars. I guess a component speaker system + receiver is the solution, which is probably much better sound anyway.
collsni
Is there a dumb oled? I want a dumb oled tv and monitor, monitor oled market is surprisingly slim.
sphars
The Gigabyte Aorus FO48U might work for you. A dumb OLED monitor the size of a small TV. Catered towards the gaming market of course but is a viable option: https://www.gigabyte.com/Monitor/AORUS-FO48U
syshum
sceptre seems to be the last brand offering dumb displays
I am just waiting for the first "smart" computer monitor
notriddle
They’re called all-in-ones. They’re very popular. The Apple version is called the iMac.
kasabali
Samsung has 27"-32" monitors running Tizen
CraneWorm
you can buy monitors running android now :)
pabs3
Hopefully Software Freedom Conservancy's lawsuit against Vizio will lead to people being able to replace the OS pre-installed on smart TVs with standard Linux distros, so that blocklists like this are no longer needed. Of course even standard Linux distros have privacy issues, but they are easier to deal with than the ads and other issues in pre-installed vendor operating systems.
https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/vizio.html https://wiki.debian.org/PrivacyIssues
danuker
Best case, only Vizio will comply, and only if it turns out Vizio violated the GPL, and only if SF Conservancy resists any potentially lucrative attempts to get the case settled out of court.
pabs3
Conservancy won't settle without GPL compliance according to their principles:
https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/principles.htm...
Its pretty clear that Vizio violated the GPL, the question to be answered by the case is who gets to enforce the GPL.
If Conservancy win this case, then they get the precedent set that any recipient of GPLed binaries gets to sue for GPL compliance. That precedent applies to any person or company that distributes Linux or other copyleft code on hardware or elsewhere. That means any person who buys Linux hardware can sue if it doesn't come with source code. Potentially that means many more possibilities of GPL compliance suits, maybe even class action ones. The threat of that and the actual suits in turn will hopefully lead to much higher amounts of GPL compliance.
If Conservancy lose this case, then the copyright holders still get to sue for GPL compliance and I assume Conservancy will switch to pursuing Vizio in this way.
cebert
If you don’t want to do a lot of setup. If you set NextDNS as your DNS provider, you’re all set. NextDNS has a free tier that includes supporting block lists. In my opinion it’s pricing model is reasonable too.
u2077
I was just thinking about how much I hate our TV blasting random shows every time I turn it on. Who on earth wants more “recommendations by ai”? AI is short for advertising industry at this point.
gonehome
Samsung? I can’t stand their stuff for this reason.
I think the LG OLEDs are the best available option, but they’re not perfect either.
NextDNS is also great for something a little easier to manage than PiHole (plus also easy to use outside of your home network and on mobile).
m-p-3
And the list is already available on NextDNS
nerdponx
This seems like good content for the "always has been" image macro meme.
contingencies
AI is short for advertising industry at this point.
Nice one. Added to https://github.com/globalcitizen/taoup
undefined
e2le
Is the Pi-Hole even reasonably effective these days?
> Nearly 70% of smart TVs and 46% of game consoles were found to contain hardcoded DNS settings - allowing them to simply ignore your local network’s DNS server entirely.
brynx97
You can create port forward firewall rules to redirect any outbound DNS port 53 traffic. This will not work for DNS over HTTPS, which is going to be increasingly common for IoT I'd imagine.
edit: method for this on pfSense: https://docs.netgate.com/pfsense/en/latest/recipes/dns-redir...
gray_charger
You could try this for DoH blocking. It probably needs help staying updated.
https://codeberg.org/unixsheikh/dohblockbuster https://openbsdrouterguide.net/#blocking-doh
syshum
Then you have to contend with DNS over HTTP, Thanks Firefox and Google....
DNS over HTTP has got to be the most ill thought out "privacy" feature that has done more to HARM privacy then it could ever help
walterbell
> the most ill thought out "privacy" feature
Whose privacy? DoH helps to protect billions in revenue for the ad network that funds Chrome, Firefox, Safari and web standards.
A better web will need a different revenue model.
In the meantime, here's a maintained guide to blocking DoH with pfsense, https://github.com/jpgpi250/piholemanual/blob/master/doc/Blo...
eli
That's a stretch given the context. A smart TV maker can put whatever they want in their own client software. They don't care what features Firefox and Google support.
jjulius
Yes; PiHoles are used for far more than just blocking smart TVs. The difference between browsing the web at my house and browsing away from home is so stark that it's almost not worth browsing most sites if I'm not behind it.
JohnTHaller
Curious why you're not using Firefox + uBlock Origin. It does CNAME lookups.
vlunkr
I run a simple VPN at my house alongside pinhole. You can block ads anywhere that way.
Zizizizz
Yep, took me about 5 minutes to set up with tailscale https://tailscale.com/kb/1114/pi-hole/ (wireguard)
jrnichols
that is what I am connected to right now. it's amazing how much more lightweight the internet is in general with pi-hole/etc.
jjulius
I've been strongly considering it precisely because of this, just need to get around to setting it up.
axjmc
I do the same. The same pi runs a wireguard server.
SmellTheGlove
I block my TV’s MAC at the router. I use a roku for the streaming apps, which doesn’t seem to hardcode it’s DNS yet. But when it does you can just write some iptables rules. When they switch to dns over https, well I don’t know then haha.
dec0dedab0de
Sounds like we also need a list of IPs to null route
icecap12
The workaround is already in use for ad hosting - serve all the content from one domain (or an IP) with services natted behind that, so if you block it, nothing works.
matheusmoreira
The ideal solution is custom clients for every service. Why use their proprietary software? We should make our own software we can use to connect to their servers. That way we can make it do whatever we want.
dec0dedab0de
In that case we need to proxy, but only the wanted requests.
Though in the case of a smart TV, you would want to block everything except for whichever streaming services you're subscribed to.
woodruffw
It probably depends on your use patterns. I have a console and a TV in my apartment, but I spend much more time on personal computers than I do on either. My Pi-hole instance is still reasonably effective for that, and I'm sure I could (eventually) be motivated to do the workaround described in the post you linked.
teeray
You can DNAT those requests at the router over to a Pi-Hole, unless they’ve upgraded to DoH
simcop2387
I've setup firewall rules to redirect traffic from some devices to avoid that, but some are starting to use dns over https which is more difficult to deal with
undefined
LeoPanthera
If you use AdGuard Home instead of Pi-Hole, there is a version of this list for that, too:
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/Perflyst/PiHoleBlocklist/m...
(Though it is included as a preset, already, in AdGuard Home.)
xanaxagoras
I don't get it. Also down below there's even a whole comment chain about how "hard it is" to buy a dumb TV. Why bother with all this blocking, just disable the surveillance entirely. Change your wifi password, don't give the new one to the TV, and use a computer as input. A TV is a big dumb monitor, full stop.
HWR_14
The ability to wirelessly transmit to a TV on the LAN, without the ability of the TV to connect to the internet is valuable to me.
Nextgrid
VLANs (if using Ethernet) or separate wireless network with no access to the internet nor your LAN (LAN->TV is OK, TV->LAN is not) is the only way to go. Anything else is a game of whack-a-mole that you're likely to lose.
HWR_14
I have extra networking hardware. I wasn't aware I could have LAN->TV but not bidirectional communication. Is there a source you know of better than googling on how to achieve this, since you seem to imply it's different than searching about VLANs since it's wireless.
undefined
zeec123
vlans
drcongo
A TV also shouldn't need an operating system that takes 30 seconds to boot up and gets laggier over time until it crashes and the TV becomes unusable. There's much more to a dumb TV than just a "smart" TV with the internet switched off.
wanderingmind
Please make this into a git repository that can be curated, updated and maintained by a community of volunteers
gurjeet
The source of that webpage _is_ in a Git repo: https://github.com/Perflyst/PiHoleBlocklist
HTH.
Tempest1981
Is this for load-balancing? And they stopped 2 years ago?
usage-us-fy2014.myhomescreen.tv
...
usage-us-fy2018.myhomescreen.tv
usage-us-fy2019.myhomescreen.tv
usage-us-fy2020.myhomescreen.tv
usage.myhomescreen.tvwoodruffw
It doesn't seem like they stopped:
$ dig @8.8.8.8 +short usage-us-fy20{18,19,20,21,22}.myhomescreen.tv
199.239.141.74
213.198.25.172
213.198.25.174
213.198.25.177
213.198.25.177
Edit: Opened a PR: https://github.com/Perflyst/PiHoleBlocklist/pull/126
teeray
Looks like an API versioning scheme for TVs manufactured during that fiscal year, if I were to speculate (FY2020 = Fiscal Year 2020). Remember that most TVs probably never get updated. Maybe they stopped because the API stabilized or they have mandatory auto-updates.
alkonaut
I just manually unchecked the cookie permissions for a couple of hundred different ad companies on my Samsung TV. Using my remote. Of course there was a button to accept all of them, but not reject them. How one of the worlds largest companies sells stuff that so blatantly violates the GDPR while web developers at tiny companies sweat over whether we can save an IP for five minutes is beyond me.
mrjin
I actually bought a TV box to avoid using those so called smart functions. Samsung TV's design, especially the remote designs are crap, which make switching video source a pain in the neck.
Shared404
> How one of the worlds largest companies sells stuff that so blatantly violates the GDPR while web developers at tiny companies sweat over whether we can save an IP for five minutes is beyond me.
Money solves a lot of problems, and people at tiny companies seem more likely to actually care.
rdtwo
The fines are the same for both. It’s like Bill gates doesn’t really care if he runs every red light camera on the way home but his maid does.
noisem4ker
The fines aren't the same. They scale with damage entity and company turnover. See art. 83 of GDPR: https://gdpr-info.eu/art-83-gdpr/
paulcole
> while web developers at tiny companies sweat over whether we can save an IP for five minutes is beyond me
Maybe they shouldn’t? Either block European traffic or do whatever you want and figure it out later when you’re big enough to be on somebody’s radar.
Nextgrid
Given my experience reporting breaches to the ICO and seeing no tangible action even for an actor clearly operating in bad faith and brazenly ignoring the ICO's letters, a head-in-the-sand approach to GDPR compliance is unfortunately a very valid strategy.
drcongo
To be fair to the ICO, they're chronically understaffed. The only time I have ever needed them, they did the one thing I needed of them - reply-all to an email accepting the complaint I was making.
yumraj
I already use this list, and one thing to note, which is not necessarily bad and can be good in many cases, is that this can also block TV firmware updates.
I just have to check manually once in a while and disable while I update the firmware. Of course firmware in most cases can also be updated via USB.
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Praise be the folks that curate these lists. Even without a pi-hole you can plug these into any firewall for your brand(s).
More annoying is the 15 second "home menu" that pops up on my OLED every time it is turned on. I almost always forget to manually dismiss it before I set the remote down and there's no option I can find to disable it.
I would pay a premium for a TV with no internet connection.