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version_five
root_axis
> I have no idea what the solution is.
I think this is a case where legislation is a clear win. It should be illegal for manufacturers to gate core functionality of stationary appliances behind an internet connection. Appliances already have a legal definition in the U.S. so it's not a far fetched idea.
roenxi
The first comment in this thread is proposing that there is a corrupting force working with builders to install smart ovens. Centralising power in a regulator isn't targeted at the actual problem, and creates a single point of failure that might well end up with smart-ovens becoming mandatory in new builds, where possible.
franga2000
1. That regulator already has the power, so this in no way increases their ability to do something like that.
2. Yes, manufacturers making deals with builders is one reason people end up with Internet Of Shit devices, but not the only one. Sometimes people buy them because they weren't properly informed, or locks are added in a software update, or it's simply the best all-round product so the person makes a compromise, or the local shops don't even sell anything without these anti-features.
Either way, the existence of such an anti-feature is unacceptable. Why should we have to fix every single situation where people end up with these, when it's far more effective to just outlaw them?
(And please don't mention any freedom of the manufacturer, corporations don't have rights. They should serve the people and people alone.)
hutzlibu
"end up with smart-ovens becoming mandatory in new builds, where possible."
Oh for sure. To fight climate change(and dependence on russian oil and gas), we all have to get a smart oven, to make sure we are all using our energy in the most efficient way. And not too often. Let's say a budget of 1 moderate use per day per adult user. And if the grid gets too unstable, your oven might smartly switches off and on during baking, to help stabilize the grid.
neycoda
Good luck trying to convince our anti-government regulation-hating culture to demand sensible laws restricting corporate abuse like this. It's considered "free market" and "job creating" and "freedom" to be maliciously exploited by corporatists.
Guthur
messe
> God no please stop with getting the government involved, if the last 2 years have not convinced you how much they are all dim wits then I don't know what will.
Haha, tell me you're from the US without telling me from the US. Government regulation in this sector is exactly what it needs. Hell, it's one of the main reasons we managed to standardize on micro-USB for mobile devices; it was a flexible enough standardization that the industry has been able to switch to USB-C as a whole without running foul of it.
Right now there's clearly an incentive for companies to push these shitty features, whereas many consumers would consider that a downside. Regulations don't mean the complete removal of the free market, but rather the incorporation of that kind of externality into the market.
MereInterest
> God no please stop with getting the government involved
God no please stop with the anti-regulation BS.
> The answer is don't buy the damn house it's that simple.
If you're already several months into building, with partial payments having been made, when the builder tells you that this is the only option allowed, they have you over the barrel. They've violated the social contract of providing options, and expect you to pay the cost of it. That cost is either a reduction of your choices, or needing to forgo incremental design altogether while maintaining an antagonistic relationship with your builder.
> Pay more build what you want and be happy.
The parent post already tried to pay more to build what you want. The general contractor did not allow for any other options. The free market does not work with this sort of bundling.
> People want cheap houses and this is that.
First, nowhere did the poster state that they were unwilling to pay a higher price for a functional oven. They stated that there was no other option available. Second, the term you're alluding to is "revealed preference" [0], which is a load of economic bollocks. It implies that you can entirely ignore what people state they want, the circumstances in which choices have been made, or forms of market failure (e.g. [1]).
Overall, the appropriate response to market failure, including anti-competitive deals between builders and appliance manufacturers, is to change the environment in which that market exists. Introducing regulation in order to avoid unfavorable Nash Equilibria is the role of government, in order to fix these market failures.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revealed_preference
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_small_decisions
jay_kyburz
If your government is broken you should fix that first. Our government is our collective strength designed to protect us from the vampire overlords and blood sucking squids.
root_axis
> if the last 2 years have not convinced you how much they are all dim wits then I don't know what will.
If you have specific problems with my suggestion as proposed I'd be happy to discuss the details, but "I don't like Biden" is not a convincing argument against the concept of regulations.
In my view, an oven that needs wifi to operate correctly crosses a line from creative business strategy into corporate abuse, nobody wants to live in a world where you need to login to a corporate website to cook your meals, but this is a completely plausible reality that we have the power to avoid if we agree that we don't have to live that way. I think regulation works well here too because the undesirable behavior is clear and easy to target legally without much possibility for unintended consequences. Further, this is a new trend that hasn't become widespread (yet), so getting rid of it now won't be disruptive to existing businesses.
For microwaves and toasters this kind of thing isn't a big deal because they're small and cheap, but stationary appliances like stoves and ovens are appliances that can't simply be replaced on a dime, they are investments meant to last many years and in practice they often operate as part of the home itself and can see multiple owners throughout their lifetimes. Not to mention, the rental and housing market is absolutely insane right now and for the foreseeable future, the vast majority of people do not have the luxury to quibble over the type of oven installed in their home assuming it is otherwise functional and sanitary. Or, more likely, they won't have any idea about this detail until its too late.
JaimeThompson
It isn't a binary yes/no question.
kbelder
2?
It's pretty close to 222 years.
mindslight
The past 2 years of GDPR enforcement has looked halfway encouraging. As a libertarian, I still really cannot think of any other way to prevent our individual liberties from being destroyed by the surveillance industry.
Maybe in some alternative universe where the government never mandated social security numbers, driver's license numbers, birth certificates, or laws against "fraud" for using narrowly-scoped nyms. Where the economic treadmill wasn't run so hard, so people had time to practice good digital hygiene like installing Adblock and the advertising industry never developed. But that's not the world we're staring down, and we only get one.
chrissnell
Thank you. Getting the government involved in this with simply create more government jobs, more waste, more pensions, and most importantly, homes that cost more. Politicians love to talk regulation that sounds really good to the average person on the street, but the average person on the street has no idea what that really means on the backend.
torstenvl
Or prosecute a few of these people for treason. Let's not mince words here. When you build a home and include a backdoor for foreign intelligence, you are committing treason.
e-clinton
Thing is that internet access is considered a utility, so it’s not unreasonable to expect it. Just like you need gas to operate a stove.
moonchild
Gas is essential to the operation of a (gas) stove. Internet is not essential to the operation of any oven, even a smart one.
wtallis
Water supply is also considered a utility, but that doesn't make it reasonable for a stove to require a water connection.
verisimi
I don't think this legislation will happen.
As part of the technocratic agenda, it is integral that all energy usage, water usage, etc is managed. For this to work, there needs to be 'kill switches'. Like the one's Biden has required new cars to have by 2025.
Technocrats want to (micro) manage everyone's usage of everything. The green agenda is the main sales pitch given for this, but also look out for needing to log on to go online because of ... terrorists, Russian internet attacks, child abuse, etc.
We are coding ourselves into dystopia.
ConceptJunkie
Everyone is so gung ho about all the companies that are throwing kill switches to Russia, and I'm just waiting for those same companies to start doing the same thing to anyone they want, for any reason. It's already happening.
causality0
Even the most reasonable people can't make the argument when the direction is so wildly independent of reality. For example, water usage limits on dishwashers that make people run the cycle twice and end up using more water and more electricity than the old ones.
JaimeThompson
Where in the bill does it mention kill switches for cars?
https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/117/hr3684/text
https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/3684...
rolandog
>Technocrats want to (micro) manage everyone's usage of everything.
From Collins English dictionary: "A technocrat is a scientist, engineer, or other expert who is one of a group of similar people who have political power as well as technical knowledge."
I think you're conflating 'technocrats' with 'greedy people'.
I'm not saying people with technical knowledge and political power cannot be evil. What I'm saying is it doesn't require any special skill to be really greedy.
SpicyLemonZest
Do... they? I follow a lot of people who I think you'd consider supporters of technocracy, and I've never seen anyone argue that it's good or important to have central monitoring of people's oven usage.
sdoering
Let me be the one to challenge your claim of the enforced "Kill Switch" [0].
[0]: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/infrastructure-bill-track-...
Especially stating that this is an eco-agenda is imho either misinformation or willfully partisan.
omginternets
You're not wrong, but that's still what needs to happen.
MrYellowP
> Technocrats want to (micro) manage everyone's usage of everything.
You've spelt "Totalitarians" wrong. This is totalitarianism.
This isn't just micromanagement. This is about total control. There's signs of totalitarianism all over the place, including US-culture itself. How kids are being raised. What they're being taught in school. How people behave towards each other.
abrowne
I got new boilers (furnaces for radiator heating) installed recently, and halfway through one of the crew asked where they should install the boxes that connect the thermostats to the internet. Luckily they were completely separate, so I said I never agreed with that and they left them boxed up, because they had never thought to mention it. (They listened to my explanation that I would not have something that literally starts a fire in my house connected to the internet without at least being able to control the software it runs, but I think they were just being polite.)
theonealtair
I went to use the app for my hot tub and put in the 6 digit pin, except the last number I put in was a 4 instead of a 3. It logged me in, but the temperature looked off, then I realized I wasn’t connected to my hot tub, it was someone else. Turns out the 6-digit pins are sequential. And this is from a billion dollar pool company.
TheCoelacanth
The S in IOT stands for security.
Mountain_Skies
My neighbor has never properly setup the internet connection on his hot tub. It's still in access point mode, waiting for anyone to connect and take control of it. Going to guess that it at least has manual controls on the hot tub itself. If he wasn't such a difficult curmudgeon to talk to, I'd warn him about it, but he'll probably just think I'm trying to sell him something.
bombcar
This is true across a frighteningly large swath of “quasi industrial home control” stuff - all the vulnerabilities of industrial controls with zero of the attention paid to it.
JoeyBananas
That's incredible
13of40
A year or two ago, my newish car was at the shop, recovering from a fender bender, and I got a call from the police asking where it was. I told them and they said that matched with the coordinates they had. It turned out that the SOS system had malfunctioned, and the GPS and integrated 4g (which I didn't even know I had, because the car doesn't have a built in navigation system or voice phone) had been phoning home and telling the car company I was in trouble. I called the manufacturer and asked if I had a subscription to this service, and I was informed that the car had a subscription, and I couldn't cancel it. Luckily I appealed to the dealership and after a couple of days the sent me a "confidential" pdf with instructions on how to unplug the spy module...which of course threw up all kinds of scary warnings starting the car after that... until it suddenly didn't anymore. So now I have a dumb car, and I love it more than ever.
LAC-Tech
I can't imagine living in a place where there's enough police for any of them give a shit about stolen cars. Jealous!
kQq9oHeAz6wLLS
I gotta know now...what make and model?
toss1
May I ask what kind of car that was, and what country?
nunez
I think your BMW had those because both (4G hotspot and navigation) can be "enabled" remotely through upgrades to iDrive
megablast
Good. Every car needs to be tracked at all times. They are death machines, responsible for over s million deaths worldwide every year. It is insane we allow this.
KennyBlanken
They were being polite, as all service workers have to be. Tell me you've never worked s service industry job without telling me you've never worked a service industry job....
There are numerous safety interlocks in gas furnaces ranging from flame presence sensors to (usually) several heat limit switches, often which are wired directly in line between the gas solenoid and the furnace controller. The controller's logic has a lot of "expect this condition by this amount of time" rules, too.
The furnace's controller is usually separate from the system controller (the box that talks to thermostats, valves/dampers, pumps, etc.)
On forced hot air systems that are new enough, the furnace and system controller monitor outlet air temperature and shut down if it's too hot.
Gas furnaces are incredibly safe.
Also, the quote to install the system specified what thermostats they were going to install. It's on you to read the quote, not to get uppity at service personnel and lecture them people haxx0ring your furnace.
chris_st
We had a water heater installed a few years ago, that along with a heat exchanger heats the house, so it comes with a thermostat. Salesman tells me in glowing terms about the WiFi-enabled thermostat they're "giving" me, to which I reply "ABSOLUTELY NOT"... turns out they have an old-style one that's $300 cheaper, and... has worked fine for the entire time, without poking a severe security hole in my WiFi network.
assttoasstmgr
I mean you do realize a Wi-Fi connected thermostat just closes a pair of contacts that tell the boiler "heat on" or "heat off" and it's not "literally starting a fire" in your house. Assuming someone took over and had full control of your thermostat the worst they could do is turn the heat on and make you uncomfortable. All boilers/furnaces/etc have protection mechanisms built in and in no circumstance is the 'fire' controlled by the thermostat whatsoever. A thermostat simply sends a signal that 'calls' for heat or cooling. The only exception would be a mains-voltage thermostat that controls an electric wall heater but I've never seen those connected to Wi-Fi.
DonHopkins
>just closes a pair of contacts that tell the boiler "heat on" or "heat off" and it's not "literally starting a fire" in your house
Unless you observe Shabbat.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_on_Shabbat
>Nobel Prize-winning physicist Richard Feynman recounts that he was approached by young rabbis in a seminary who asked him "is electricity fire?". He replied, "no", but asked why they wanted to know, and was shocked that they weren't interested in science at all, but just wanted to interpret the Talmud. Feynman said that electricity was not a chemical process, as fire is, and pointed out that there is electricity in atoms and thus every phenomenon that occurs in the world. Feynman proposed a simple way to eliminate the spark: '"If that's what's bothering you, you can put a condenser across the switch, so the electricity will go on and off without any spark whatsoever—anywhere.' But for some reason, they didn't like that idea either".
Feynman was SHOCKED I say SHOCKED they weren't interested in science at all! ;)
pengaru
Thermostats generally have an "off" setting, and it's historically not uncommon for homeowners to use this setting when the home is unoccupied as it clearly carries less risk in terms of both fire and unexpected energy costs than ones that may run the furnace.
Not only is your comment pedantic, it's not even correct.
jdavis703
Correct, this is totally different than having a smart gas oven or stove. I too would never have plumbing or gas appliances hooked up to the internet. But my Nest thermostat is totally safe.
baash05
Didn't some company turn up the heaters at night, to increase the power costs.
Also this https://www.wired.com/story/water-heaters-power-grid-hack-bl...
mcspiff
It’s even worse now in Canada — not smart devices, but water heater rentals. These companies charge astronomical rates per month for a rental, or a large “contract buy out fee”. They give kick backs to developers so almost all new builds in Ontario will have them.
LeonM
Could be worse.
I live in a city that has a centralised heating infrastructure (every building gets a hot water connection), and my apartment came equipped with a heat exchanger that connects to said heating system. I have to _lease_ this heat exchanger from the energy company, and I cannot opt out. The lease is like 50 euros per month, though the MSRP on the unit is only 400 euros or so. Then I still need to pay for actual heat consumption, which is also 3 times more expensive than a gas powered heater that is commonly found in my country.
namibj
Here the district heating is substantially cheaper than a gas furnace, at least in operation. I believe you have to buy the infrastructure and pay for the pipe that goes from the nearest joint to your building, though.
We don't do per-apartment heat exchangers, but rather one per building, typically with shared hot water radiators across all units in the building. Heat consumption is either estimated by a air/radiator temperature difference integrator on the radiator, or an electronic flow meter+temperature differential sensors on the unit's connection to the central hot water loop.
ohyeshedid
Ahh, the Culligan/Water treatment/softener business model.
Scoundreller
I think it’s a regional thing, big in Ontario and Saskatchewan, unheard of elsewhere.
Always look into buyout terms. Though replacement heaters these days are lot more expensive than pre-covid :(
hedora
I suppose their lawyers figured out that people would just recycle them and stop paying.
If so, I suggest installing a water softener with an anti-backflow device but not installing a bladder pressure relief tank between it and the water heater. Also buy a whole house leak detector / shutoff valve.
If the resulting water heater tank rupture doesn't lead them to breach the maintenance side of the contract, look into over-softening the water so the sacrificial anode fails every 6-12 months.
(Edit: In case it wasn't clear, this is a great way to do unbounded amounts of damage to your house, so don't actually do this.)
giantg2
"I have no idea what the solution is."
Tell the builder not install a stove, just the build the location and socket. They say no, then go with a different builder.
My house had a glass top stove (it was a foreclosure with certain things done to it by the bank). I sold it on Craigslist. Since it was basically new, it covered the replacement.
ajsnigrutin
So wait.. you get your oven when you buy your (new?) house?
Everywhere i've been, you're happy if you get a kitchen, and the oven is just like a washing machine... a standard-sized piece of equipment that fits in a standard-sized hole in your kitchen, that you buy in an electronics store.
mkl
Some ovens are built into kitchen benches.
ajsnigrutin
But those are standardized too, and definitely not something a builder would demand you buy.
Usually you buy a house/apartment here, and then you buy a kitchen separately, and they ask you if you want a standard oven or a built-in one, and they leave a hole for either... I guess you can buy an oven with them too, and they install it, but you can definitely buy any standard sized one, and just screw it in, eg:
https://www.mimovrste.com/pecice
https://www.mimovrste.com/i/17170441/550/550 <- example diagram
You also need a separate cooktop for the builtin variant, but they can cut out a hole for that too (sizes are pretty much all standardized)
A lot of people still use standalone ovens+cooktops, eg: https://www.mimovrste.com/stedilniki/gorenje-kombinirani-ste...
jml78
I mean hell, my oven died a few months ago. We don’t have gas so induction is really the only way to go.
We current had induction and didn’t want to go back to radiant
Between all the appliance stores in my area we found a single unit that was in stock. Everything else was two months out.
Unfortunately it is a smart oven. Good thing is that it just nags is about adding it to WiFi but doesn’t force it.
But either way, we had no damn choice on a new oven due to supply chain issues.
hanklazard
Same. Need a double convection oven to replace our failing one. Shocking how few are available without wifi.
As has been said in other threads about connected TVs, if a few companies would just make dependable, serviceable, not-effing-internet-connected appliances, i for one, would buy all their products.
stuu99
" I have no idea what the solution is."
Anti-trust against intel, ms, and amd, aka the trusted computing group is behind the "internet of things that spies on you"
https://trustedcomputinggroup.org/
They want to turn the internet into a giant perosanl computer only corporations own and control and they are doing that by putting a secret processor inside our cpu's we don't have access to that polices and enforces copyright law.
AKA you got a digital dictator in side your phone and PC.
The last 23+ years theres been a war on general computing devices so that they obey hardware and software companies and not their users.
So the best thing you can do is call the FTC and we sick anti-trust on intel, amd, and the trusted computing group, they are behind all this internet of things bs.
Chris2048
> I have no idea what the solution is
Refuse to have any oven and hire someone else to install one afterwards.
rootusrootus
In my experience the builder will very happily install whatever you want. But they will charge you full price for the appliance you select, and give you no credit for the one you are not having installed.
Sounds like a bad deal, because it is. But... what are you going to do? Let them install the one they planned to, then rip it out and install the one you want later? Okay, maybe you can get enough for the original one to come out ahead financially, but mostly you won't, once labor is factored in. It's a wonderful racket for builders, they know exactly how to price it so you pay far more than the difference for every upgrade.
duped
Why not tell them not to install it? My local big box stores install appliances for free or a nominal fee.
If you can afford to build your own home, you can afford it too!
Chris2048
> and give you no credit
so, are you not getting an itemised bill? You agree to a number for a house and stuff inside is assumed?
I wouldn't deal with a builder who wouldn't install the oven I bought.
nop_slide
Ha! I have a fun one.
We recently had our first child. I finally opened a thermometer we were gifted from a shower and low and behold, the thing can not take a temperature without downloading an app. It has a digital screen and everything, but you when you first power it on you are greeted with it displaying "APP" and you HAVE to download the app & set it up before it will work.
When we finally took the temperature, the damn thing still didn't even display it on the screen, it sent the reading to the app. I don't even know what the point of the screen is.
This thing also wants to "anonymously" share your temp readings and location with the community stating it will help and let you know if there are diseases spreading locally.
It went against my dignity to download it and use the thing, but it was 10:00PM and checking our baby's temp at the time was more important.
Still it was the most asinine smart-device experience I have had to date.
smarnach
The screen exists so the thermometer can tell you to download the app.
RansomStark
Every time I see a story like this I'm reminded how close we are to unauthorized bread [0] and it saddens me each time.
Humanity was given the greatest communication tool we could imagine and we use it to spy on people and steal their data, so companies can sell more shit. What a waste.
[0] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/41085118-unauthorized-br...
On a side note, I'm convinced Doctorow is the greatest cyberpunk writer there is, but I'm also sure the reason for this is because earlier writers had to imagine a dystopian future. Doctorow, like the rest of us, is living that future (which is much more boring that fiction made out) and he's simply documenting what he sees.
notreallyserio
There's also the classic verification can: https://m.imgur.com/dgGvgKF . Not exactly the same thing but tangentially related.
fennecfoxen
Every time I read about the latest smart-appliance fad, the Amish look a little bit more prudent, and I get one day closer to buying something good and low-tech from Lehman's or the like https://www.lehmans.com/
calumetregion
Agree, but this assumes humans would ever had used it for anything else.
voakbasda
At a former job, I worked on the low-level OS support for GE devices. With that perspective, I would never buy one of their products that contains any software, and I actively warn others not to buy them.
I worked on medical devices. Imagine how much worse the software will be on devices that do not have that level of regulatory scrutiny.
loonster
I have a GE Profile Induction Range. I both love and hate it. Idiots that designed it used capacitive touch sensors to adjust everything, including temperature of the burners.
Think of using your phone with wet hands. Now imagine pan frying something on the range and it splatters adjusting the temperature to max. Need to have presence of mind to either dry the sensor and turn off, or remove pan from range so it auto turns off.
Many manufacturers are doing the same thing and not just GE. Someone is going to have their house burn down because of this design decision.
vosper
I think that’s actually common for induction cooktops of many brands. I believe the reason is so to keep the surface a single flat sheet of glass. They’re incredibly easy to clean compared to any other kind of cooktop.
But I agree, not so great to use. On my last one if any water spilled on the capacitive area (eg because of boil over) it would “panic” and completely switch off.
I still love induction and I would rather have it with capacitive buttons than any other kind of cooktop, and I have a high-end gas one.
im3w1l
What gets me is the debouncing. I can turn a knob way faster than I can can click-wait-click-wait-click, my way to the right setting.
Tyr42
I have an induction stove, but it has knobs on the front.
bombcar
The “store wow factor” is getting out of control. Devices that look great on the showroom floor but completely impractical in use.
Commercial market products sometimes avoid this but commercial ovens usually aren’t insulated at all.
ratg13
GE is terrible at software, mostly due to their relationship with Tata.
You were working on actual GE devices though, these appliances are GE in name only and slapped together by people who are even less skilled.
aulin
The problem with anecdotic insights like this is they don't give any information about the competitors, sure you have direct experience with GE (in a completely different dept) but how does that provide any information about any other manufacturer you didn't work at? they could be far worse, they could be far better. Also different divisions within GE could be managed in a vastly different way from your experience.
voakbasda
I have worked with many large businesses in my long career. I would say that most are bad at software, to an extent that I am amazed that any of these gargantuan companies can remain in business. As someone that cares about quality, the experiences have helped to make me extremely bitter and cynical about a career that I once loved. The entire software industry is a house of cards, from what I have seen. No exceptions.
aulin
I understand the bitterness and I believe many of us here can definitely relate. My comment was more about the general tendency to extrapolate from specific experiences to general considerations.
Handytinge
When I was younger, I was riding my bicycle and hit by a car. The driver had a GE Electric polo shirt on. He got out, said "are you ok?" (I was concussed and my bicycle was very damaged) and then left.
A few days later I contacted the local GE office (only one anywhere around) and described the car, the man and what happened. They got back to me the next day and advised they had no information for me.
Since then I've been actively hostile to GE and in various business activities found ways to cost them hundreds of thousands of dollars. I'm aware this is a rounding error for them, but fuck those guys.
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CorrectHorseBat
Reminds me of this news from yesterday https://tweakers.net/nieuws/193950/aeg-combimagnetron-denkt-... (Dutch, couldn't find an English source)
AEG microwave thinks it's an steam oven after update, don't think even The Onion could come up with this.
beebeepka
Now imagine a future where all these appliances have personalities and then this happens, rendering your oven and friend useless!
Man, I have to read Only Forward once again. Lovely book
devoutsalsa
After you grind in the kitchen on 100 hot chocolates and 50 bags of popcorn, you have enough XP to level up. The software developers just forgot to lock out that feature. Personally I’d rather morph into an air fryer.
sdoering
I recently wanted to buy a Bluetooth speaker for my mom. From experience I was looking for a small Bose speaker. It wasn't available. They recommended a Sonos alternative.
I looked at the packaging. The price was only slightly below the Bose "equivalent".
At home I wanted to quickly connect the speaker to the computer and was dumbstruck with the requirement to connect it to her wireless and install the App to configure it.
Also I had to agree to Sonos transmitting every app I used to stream music, every song I heard, inclusive of the account names.
This being sold without disclaimer or information that the device is unusable without such a data striptease, app install and wlan was quite irritating. I put the device back into the packaging, brought it back to the store and ordered a Bose for her.
jasonwatkinspdx
Sorry to bring bad news, but you may be in trouble with Bose as well: https://lwn.net/Articles/775238/
The talk is about how the Smart Speaker 500 cloud infrastructure works. Every button press gets sent to the cloud over websocket, and the device's state is shadowed in a Cassandra cluster. Even the current volume setting.
I just checked the manual and it says you can disable Wifi or Bluetooth, but that if you disable both networks the device goes into standby. Maybe if someone owns one of these they can chime in if there's some way to use the app without it phoning home?
Even if there's a workaround for now, the way they're architecting makes clear the direction they're headed.
tgsovlerkhgsel
Bose does something similar for their headphones unfortunately.
Only some basic functionality is available without the app.
vageli
> Only some basic functionality is available without the app.
What functionality is lacking without the app?
tgsovlerkhgsel
Adjusting the equalizer, fine adjustments to noise cancelling, disconnecting devices that it thinks are playing sound.
hn_go_brrrrr
You can't adjust the noise cancellation.
noja
Bose do (did?) the same thing, at least with their headphones. Submits what you play to them by default.
pickledcods
Because it is internet connected, and possibly only works when internet connected, you are dependent on the manufacturer after purchase. Does it have a built in web-server that can device-independent access all functions through a local net. If not then it sounds to me like after-sales.
What are the after-sales terms? Is there a contract? Are you going to pay for an after-sales subscription? If not, how is their business model to finance it? How is your privacy or personal identification involved? How long will the product be supported (Planned obsolescence)? Can you block automatic-updates? Can you downgrade the firmware? What are your legal options if they close down the service before product end-of-lifetime? Or liability if the product gets hacked and destroys/damages property? Will refusing after-sales influence warranty? What are their terms & conditions to ban your access to the device? What are the non-automated options in case of disputes? What are the options/rights when escalating complaints?
Sounds like these questions should be answered on the box before you (or the person installing it) should open it. Or in the first section of EULA in layman's terms.
elmerfud
Companies will keep shoveling this kind of garbage out there door as long as people like him are passive enough to deal with it. This may be the limited range of options offered by his builder but if you get an appliance and that appliance does not work contact your builder or contact the manufacturer of the appliance for warranty repair.
Make them send out a technician to manually update the firmware if that's what they require but tell them you have no Wi-Fi and they can take this garbage back and give you your money back and then you can sue your builder to put an appliance that works but until people begin to hit these places in the pocketbook and vote with their dollars this kind of trash will not change.
I don't want to have to buy an "internet of shit appliance" that needs to be on the internet because they shipped it with broken firmware. They can either take it back or they can send a technician to conduct a warranty repair. The only exception would be something that's bold and bright on the front of the box that says internet connection required to function. Most of these things don't say that they just say Wi-Fi enabled. Which is a fine benefit for those people who want that kind of interconnected appliance and spyware lifestyle. For those who do not the correct action is hit the company's in their pocketbook.
The loss of dollars is the only message that companies understand loud and clear. A Twitter complaint is just wasting your time.
ce4
What happened to SSL3/TLS1.0/TLS1.1 end-of-life will also happen to Wifi protocols: WEP-only devices are already out, WPA1-only devices will be next to lose access to a properly secured wifi network.
The longevity of the dumb parts in kitchen appliances exceeds that of the smart boxes in them. The manufacturer cannot slap a 20-years maintenance-budget onto the sticker price and I also don't see customers paying for a yearly maintenance subscription for 20 years (for each connected appliance). It will take a decade until people have learned that the shiny new iOT features are a burden in the long run. Maybe iOT maintenance longevity will get sorted out sometimes. Until then I refuse to buy such crap.
mushyhammer
> It will take a decade until people have learned
I wish I was so positive about that. Disposable electronics have been part of cars (which cost 10s of thousands of dollars) for far longer and people still buy them. We’re doomed. Doomed I say.
Nextgrid
From a manufacturer's perspective this seems awesome. Built-in planned obsolescence.
azemetre
I understand what you are saying but this is where citizens can obviously lobby their representatives to ban this practice and allow a category of goods to work without internet connections.
This is what regulation is all about.
Nextgrid
The harm here isn't that there is no non-WiFi oven available, it's the underlying reason why the oven wants Wi-Fi and an app: "growth and engagement" aka data collection, advertising, etc. The primary purpose of this oven isn't to be an oven, it's to build a "platform" which you can then use to "engage" its users with more ads, DRM-encumbered consumables, etc. Their intended end-game is the "Unauthorized Bread" story: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-...
Regulation should address non-consensual data collection and the rest will follow. Non-WiFi ovens will be back on the market once the connected ones stop being profitable (since you can no longer stalk... I mean "engage" their users).
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JadeNB
> I understand what you are saying but this is where citizens can obviously lobby their representatives to ban this practice and allow a category of goods to work without internet connections.
I think that the burden of proof should be the other way: it shouldn't be that certain special devices are exempt from internet connections, but rather that all devices should offer a mode whereby they perform all functionality that does not directly require an internet connection. Then, of course, we'll have debates about what directly requires an internet connection … but at least it'll bring the discussion into the open.
readthenotes1
Wouldn't it be easier just to not buy an oven that requires this if you don't want it?
And if there are people who want to by the oven, why not deign to let them?
At best, we should require that there be clear labeling and I would be surprised if there aren't regulations that cover that.
Nextgrid
The danger is that we'll end up with the same situation as we have with TVs - good luck finding a consumer-grade TV with modern specs that doesn't spy on you, ask you to create an account, show ads, etc.
Some people will say that there are still budget models (Sceptre is a common brand that comes up in these discussions) that doesn't have any of that, but they're not selling these products out of goodwill - they just have a lot of dead stock (panels, etc) that they can shift profitably. This stock will run out (and it does - do these TVs have any modern features such as HDR, a quality panel, etc?) if it turns out to be more profitable to produce spy devices that happen to display TV content rather than produce devices intended to display TV content with no interest (nor capability) to spy.
The proper solution is to heavily restrict advertising and data collection so that in the end the advertising-based business model isn't profitable and it becomes more profitable to just go back to the old model of selling good, purposeful devices at a profit.
itronitron
For now at least there are ovens that don't require it. But since it's remarkably hard to find a robotic vacuum that doesn't require wifi connectivity it may just be a matter of time before all ovens are asking their owners to create an account.
eesmith
The account owner wrote: "We wanted dual ovens in the space of a single oven and this was the only option our builder offered."
criddell
It's only a matter of time until these internet connected appliances don't need access to your wifi. They will either have a cell modem or the appliance company will pay Amazon for access to their mesh network.
zionic
This. Soon I’ll have to jam 5G/whatever around my home to keep devices from “escaping”.
colinmhayes
> Make them send out a technician to manually update the firmware if that's what they require but tell them you have no Wi-Fi and they can take this garbage back and give you your money back and then you can sue your builder to put an appliance that works
The oven is specifically marketed as not having some features without connecting to the internet. I'm not sure what you think complaining would accomplish, but I can assure you it will not lead to any firmware updates or refunds. And it definitely won't lead to a winning law suit.
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TheBill
Oh man, this reminds me of a story - GE Profile oven in a ski condo, last day or second to last day we were there.
Broke in a way that you couldn't open the door - and we couldn't get the bacon out. Wound up reading the repair manual and a forum while the GF cooked eggs, trying to figure it out.
The Solenoid that is used to lock the door when it goes through a clean cycle has to be powered on 100% of the time, and keeps its spring compressed. Power turns off to lock it. If the insulator/bushing for it breaks, it will jam open & lock the door. Family will never buy GE appliances after this happened. Mom just bought a new Kitchenaid that's got exactly 0 smart features.
tragomaskhalos
Staying in an AirBnB, desperate for a cup of tea, no kettle and only an induction hob. Somehow manage to bork the hob trying to switch it on such that it is just showing an error code (E06 or some such). Much futile googling for said error code, and still no tea at the end of it. Utter madness.
qbasic_forever
Sure it wasn't detecting that the pot on top wasn't magnetic and wouldn't heat up? My little portable induction burner is smart enough to detect if the pot won't work and warns you/fails to start.
Handytinge
I had to google what a "hob" is, never heard that word. Very funny sounding!
Did you not have an electric kettle? I don't know anyone younger than 80 who uses a stovetop kettle.
vba616
>still no tea at the end of it
Oh, that's easy. Just drop the "no tea" and you will have tea.
If you prefer to have tea and no tea at the same time, just remove your common sense.
bombcar
The worst part of this stuff is you never find out about it until long after the purchase is over. Unless you happen to know a brand that’s good (say Speed Queen for now) you are stuck trying to guess what issues may occur someday.
bob1029
> Speed Queen
The only vendor who still sells a washer without lid lock... I'm looking at getting their TC5 to replace this piece of shit maytag that doesnt fill up properly.
bombcar
I have to admire the absolute ingeniousness to make it only on the high end one heh.
I suspect you could just buy the parts - they’re all very similar internally even sharing parts with the commercial models.
R0b0t1
That's hilarious. It was an engineer trying to be fake safe. Losing control over your device is going to be less safe than just letting the user open the door during a clean cycle if the power drops.
qiskit
Why does an oven need this? Is the idea that everything will be connect to the internet and need the manufacturers permission to use? Will I need American Standard's permission to flush my toilet one day? Where does this end?
After reading this, I'd be pissed off: "Smart ovens require a WiFi connection for the best experience."
After reading this, I'd be absolutely besides myself: "Please connect to unlock the latest features and receive important software updates."
Of course all of this is just to collect data on you. Sooner or later, all these devices will have cameras and voice recorders to better "serve"/observe you with voice/face recognition/etc. "Smart" devices, "smart" homes, "smart" cars, etc. When will we get "smart" clothes. That'll be nice. Your zipper won't work unless it has a wifi connection to Gap.
x3n0ph3n3
After a year of having to continuously adjust my oven's block because it would drift 10 minutes faster over the course of a month, I finally decided to connect it to the wifi with the remote hope that it would connect to an NTP server. Looks like I got lucky, and it's finally keeping proper time. I _did_ go the extra step of completely blocking all other network connectivity to and from that thing.
keiferski
The door refused to open. It said, "Five cents, please."
He searched his pockets. No more coins; nothing. "I'll pay you tomorrow," he told the door. Again it remained locked tight. "What I pay you," he informed it, "is in the nature of a gratuity; I don't have to pay you."
"I think otherwise," the door said. "Look in the purchase contract you signed when you bought this conapt."
...he found the contract. Sure enough; payment to his door for opening and shutting constituted a mandatory fee. Not a tip.
"You discover I'm right," the door said. It sounded smug.
- Ubik, Phillip K. Dick (1969)
LoveMortuus
I really dislike this trend... My parents own a robotic vacuume cleaner, which also requires you to login to companies servers before you can unlock all the functionality.
I'm of the opinion that a device should be as independent as possible. Maybe to achieve special functionality you can implement a remote but that too should work as independently as possible.
Anything more then this is just a sin, anti-consumer behaviour.
There is absolutely no reason why must login to a server that's on the other side of the planet just to tell the vacuume cleaner to clean only a part of my room...
The problem is that the majority of people don't care and they'll just buy a new device/robot cleaner once the company turns their servers off, because let's face it we're still very fast away from a law that would force companies to open source their stuff before they shutdown everything for good.
This kind of behaviour is just making the e-waste problem worse...
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Like many people may have, my first though was why would you buy a smart oven. He explains in a follow up that it was the only one offered by his home builder. And this is an important and overlooked point.
A lot of garbage that no reasonable person would ever buy ends up being weaseled in to new home sales because of deals the companies cut with the builders, knowing nobody buys a house based on whether they could have a user-scamming smart appliance as the default. This kind of thing is insidious- I have no idea what the solution is.
Though as a afterthought, it reminds me a bit of the microsoft antitrust stuff from 20+ years ago where they bundled IE as part of destroying Netscape (im sure there is more subtlety than that, that's the gist of what I remember)