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WhompingWindows

As a primer for music theory, this post doesn't teach much. It's using Python to derive various sets of notes in scales and modes, which is already easily available via google search, and in a more learnable format than Python code.

The most basic aspect of Western music theory overlooked here is the relationship between tonic and dominant. If you know the "home" chord aka "the I" aka "tonic" is C major, the dominant will be G major, aka the V chord. Add just the F major chord, and you'll know 1-4-5 in a "basic" key: C major. 1-4-5 is the simplest chord progression, you can play amazing grace, you are my sunshine, even The Beatles, you'll be rocking with 1-4-5.

Next level, if you add in the minor 6 (a minor) and minor 2 (d minor), you realistically know 95% of the chords you'll ever hear in C major pieces. And on the piano, this is ALL white notes, so even someone with zero musical knowledge can "solo" over your chords by just plunking any white notes while you play these chords (kids LOVE LOVE this btw, highly recommend trying with a kiddo).

I wouldn't consider double-sharps and double-flats "basic" music theory. They really aren't needed for beginners, since they're relegated to keys like C# major where you'll occasionally sharpen a note like E# (aka F) into E## (aka F#). I didn't run into these until around 5 years into my piano training, playing Chopin's F# major nocturne Op 15 No 2, there's a bunch of double sharps in that piece.

In any case, don't worry about double-flats and double-sharps or the precise notes of various modes and scales. Just learn pieces you enjoy, preferably with a mentor or teacher who can suggest improvements based on their trained ear.

irrational

Heh, I understood your first paragraph. I understood literally nothing in the following two paragraphs. Is this what it is like when I talk to people who don’t know anything about programming about my work? Pure gibberish?

abakker

Yes, it is! Music and programming both have a lot of notation, syntax, and terminology.

I am not really a programmer, but the thing I always wanted wasn't a "how to program guide" but "what is all this syntax" guide.

It is funny, but when you learn a written language, you spend a lot of time learning grammar and punctuation, but when you go to learn programming it all seems conceptual. there are lots of demonstrations of grammar and punctuation, but I rarely see nice, succinct lists of all the syntax you might encounter.

Atlas-Marbles

https://learnxinyminutes.com might be what you're looking for. Concise syntax guides for many languages.

yumaikas

So, this is for a few reasons.

Syntax is a skill floor, but it's not anywhere close to a skill ceiling.

If you want rapid-fire example of the various forms a given language commonly uses, I recommend X in Y minute guides. Those show off the various bits of syntax for a given programming language, though without rigorously defining them as such.

Part of the reason that programming syntax is usually taught by example, rather than by formalism is that the formalisms for programming syntax, well, look like this: (cribbing from wikipedia).

  program = 'PROGRAM', white_space, identifier, white_space, 
            'BEGIN', white_space, 
            { assignment, ";", white_space }, 
            'END.' ;
  identifier = alphabetic_character, { alphabetic_character | digit } ;
  number = [ "-" ], digit, { digit } ;
  string = '"' , { all_characters - '"' }, '"' ;
  assignment = identifier , ":=" , ( number | identifier | string ) ;
  alphabetic_character = "A" | "B" | "C" | "D" | "E" | "F" | "G"
                       | "H" | "I" | "J" | "K" | "L" | "M" | "N"
                       | "O" | "P" | "Q" | "R" | "S" | "T" | "U"
                       | "V" | "W" | "X" | "Y" | "Z" ;
  digit = "0" | "1" | "2" | "3" | "4" | "5" | "6" | "7" | "8" | "9" ;
  white_space = ? white_space characters ? ;
  all_characters = ? all visible characters ? ;
Can you take that grammar and write 10 examples of valid statements from it, with no other context?

vs, if I give you

  PROGRAM ASSIGNMENTS
  BEGIN
    MYSTRING := "A STRING";
  MYNUMBER := 123;
  END
That gives you a much better flavor from looking at things.

Ultimately, most programming languages should have defined grammars in their docs somewhere, but most devs use them by intuition, rather than formally.

The other thing, as well, is that it's one you get past grammar as a primary concern that you gain true fluency. And there are a lot of things that are higher level than grammar that can aid/hurt a program much more than the grammar constructs (like various patterns, know algorithms, schemes of organization for different types of projects, and so on). A mostly human-usable grammar is table-stakes these days.

If you have a specific language you want examples or a grammar on, let me know, and I'll see if I can find it.

(edited for formatting)

zibzab

I recommend you subscribe to prof Guy Michelmores YouTube channel then.

He is pretty good at explaining music theory without boring you to death. He even has a video on 1-4-5

tarsinge

Scales are the set of notes you can play during the song that will sound ok to the ear.

On a song in C major (or A minor), you can play any white key.

Chords are sections based around a note.

The notes played during a chord give mood and color to the chord (harmonies). The main notes of a chord (that will sound the best) are found by taking every two notes (the note+2+2), e.g. for the C chord it’s C, E and G.

Also the sequence of the notes is the melody.

And also simultaneously the ordering of the chord “drive” the song and also the mood. The 1-4-5 the parent is talking about is a very common chord progression (C major, F major, G major). The numbers here are simply the 1-index of the note in the scale used as the base for the chord.

So while you have three dimensions simultaneously which can feel overwhelming the parent was saying that simply following the 1-4-5 progression and playing randomly white keys will sound ok.

Next step try to hit one the main notes of the chord when it is playing (C E or G for the 1 for example).

actusual

I think it depends on who is explaining the complex topic. The main goal for the "explainer" is to implant ideas in someone else's head in a way they can understand and relate to. This is done through a shared vocabulary. If someone knows nothing about a topic, then the entire explanation must be done in the listener's vocabulary (while slowly and deliberately introducing new terms, and clearly defining them), which OP didn't really attempt to do.

RHSman2

Add on top the time signature grid and then you got some real giberrish! ‘The 6th hits on the ah of 3 ok!’

grawprog

>The most basic aspect of Western music theory overlooked here is the relationship between tonic and dominant. If you know the "home" chord aka "the I" aka "tonic" is C major, the dominant will be G major, aka the V chord. Add just the F major chord, and you'll know 1-4-5 in a "basic" key: C major. 1-4-5 is the simplest chord progression, you can play amazing grace, you are my sunshine, even The Beatles, you'll be rocking with 1-4-5.

Having learned music theory on a guitar rather than a piano, I learned this in a different order. C Major wasn't the focus at first. We started with Am Pentatonic and learned the common 1-4-5 progression and how to build chords and progressions out of that. Then added the rest of the notes of the Am scale in before finally going into root notes and relative scales and learning C major.

It's just my conjecture, but i think Am works better on guitars for learning because it's right in the middle of the guitar starting on fret 5 on the 6th string. Makes it easy, like you say, for someone to solo along with a 1-4-5 progression just by running up and down the scale. As long as you hit the right frets, it'll sound decent, you don't have to stretch too far, you get a nice clear view of the scale's 'pattern' on the frets. Plus, it's the relative minor of Cmajor meaning, you can still play along with someone just hammering white keys on a piano.

We also learned using a lot of blues music. There's a lot of easy variations you can do on a guitar in an Am blues key that can teach you all those fundamentals.

Modes were also worked in at the same time. This was probably not the best though, cause i really didn't get them at the time and only fairly recently sat down to study them and actually figure them out.

bazeblackwood

Just a note, it would be less ambiguous to say the chords are a 6 minor and 2 minor since minor 6th and minor 2nd are both intervals that don't relate to those chord qualities, for example the minor 2nd is a semitone above the tonic note, whereas a 2 minor chord (or ii, since lowercase represents minor chords in roman numeral chordal analysis) starts a whole tone above the tonic. Also, I think you mean the iii chord, since the ii chord is much less common. But by that measure you may as well be teaching the bVII (flat 7 dominant), which shows up all over the place in popular music (https://www.hooktheory.com/theorytab/common-chord-progressio...). That said, I agree chordal analysis is quite useful as a beginning point, but mostly for teaching the instruments that, well... play chords.

MrsPeaches

> Just a note

This made me smile.

bazeblackwood

That was (p)unintentional on my part, your pointing it out was instrumental!

scpedicini

Good stuff, but since it seems like there is a lot of pedantic responses to this post I'm going to chip in myself and say that most traditional gospel renditions of amazing Grace also make use of the supertonic. In the key of C that would be DMaj.

lovelyviking

Your advice is good and most of the advices stop at this level. Do you have any advices for what to learn next?

Any suggestions about theory learning beyond of what you've described?

Something that would help with composition perhaps? Music phrasing? Some book to read?

unixhero

Thanks a lot. I am adding your post into my collection of Hacker News wisdom snippets :)

strokirk

Do you know why these chords are so common? Is it simply cultural or something else?

hexane360

The notation OP is using is relative to the key of your song. So if your key is C major, the V chord is G. However, if your key is F major, the V chord is Bb. So it's not that there's only a few chords used in popular music, it's that there's a very consonant group of chords for any key your choose.

Also, OP is leaving out lots of ways to modulate these basic chords into more complex ones (adding a seventh step, inversions, power chords, etc.).

Finally, as with a lot of pseudo-Pareto type things, often the few exceptions are what make or break a piece musically.

lovelyviking

Any suggestions about theory learning beyond this?

Something that would help with composition perhaps? Music phrasing? Some book to read? Something for self learning? I wish that melodies I am trying to compose would be better in reflecting what I like in music, and I whish to figure out what is missing.

I can improvise with different chords but it is getting boring and once I try to do something more comlex it doesn't reflect what I like.

I think I am missing something basic and simple but since I had no other option but to learn myself mostly it is probable that I simply wasn't exposed to something essential in theory, something that all good composers know very whell, something that allows experimenting but in a productive way.

May be there is a book that is like a bible for all composers and I simply never heard about it?

mywittyname

As it was explained to me by my musician aunt (and I've heard it repeated in other places): because Music Execs. Lots of successful pop music is uses the 1-4-5-(6) chord progression, thus, when executives are picking hit songs, they go with what they know will work.

It's like bringing brownies to a potluck. It won't blow anyone's mind, but everyone will happily eat them.

fuckf4ce

That still doesn't explain why those chord progressions became popular, and they far predate the late 20th century record industry, so it really isn't a very satisfying or informative explanation, even though it's not outright wrong (it's just a restatement of familiarity bias, which generalizes outside music).

jancsika

It can be tricky to deal with the intersection of music and programming. For example:

> The chromatic scale is the easiest scale possible

So far so good-- in both programming and music we're just stepping through the smallest values (half step for music, the integer "1" in programming). So "easy" definitely applies to both domains.

> We can generate a chromatic scale for any given key very easily

For programming, sure-- you just find your offset and go to town.

For music, however, this is a wrong warp. The chromatic scale is a special case of a symmetric scale which cannot be transposed. There's literally only one such scale-- each transposition brings you back to the same exact set of pitch classes.

Figuring out what it means to have a chromatic scale "for a given key" is advanced music theory. In fact, I can only think of a few places where that makes sense:

* studying the complex harmony of late-19th century Romantic music

* studying the choice of accidentals in chromatic passages of Bach, Beethoven, etc. to infer the implied harmony

Those are important things, but they are definitely advanced concepts.

Long story short for programming, the author moves logically from an array to stepping through an array. But in terms of music, they start with the simplest possible scale and then jump to a third year undergrad theory concept.

DavidPiper

> Figuring out what it means to have a chromatic scale "for a given key" is advanced music theory

Interesting... Do you have any links for learning more about this - maybe some analyses?

My take on chromatic scales (in the context of this post) is that the very existence of a(n equally tempered 12 tone) chromatic scale is the axiom the OP is using but not stated - hence a comment further up/down about P5s not necessarily being equivalent to d6 in other tunings.

My take on chromatic scales (outside the context of this post) is that there is only one, like there are only two whole-tone scales, etc, and that it wouldn't necessarily make sense to say "the E chromatic scale" - instead you'd say "playing a chromatic scale over an E major harmony" (for example).

However, if there are cases where it's useful to be more specific I'd be really keen to go deeper.

jancsika

> My take on chromatic scales (in the context of this post) is that the very existence of a(n equally tempered 12 tone) chromatic scale is the axiom the OP is using but not stated - hence a comment further up/down about P5s not necessarily being equivalent to d6 in other tunings.

Ooh, good catch-- I completely left out tuning systems!

But again-- the point of "basic" music theory is to simplify the practice of discussing music. In that context, the fundamental purpose of the chromatic scale is to introduce the complete set of note names, as well as the range of the piano pitches. This gives the student a full set from which to derive all other concepts like scales, keys, triads, and all the other fundaments of the common practice period.

So again, if you start with a chromatic scale and then start talking about the differences in half-step intervals along it-- boom. Huge conceptual warp.

Honestly, I don't know much about the intersection between symmetric scales and alternate tuning systems. Personally, it seems like it would be an incredibly esoteric niche, although I can imagine some funny musical jokes with the idea. :)

muelo

> The chromatic scale is a special case of a symmetric scale which cannot be transposed.

I would not agree here. I think you can transpose a chromatic scale, but you end up with the same "set" of pitches. (So you _can_ transpose, but if you only consider the _set of pitches_ you end up with a invariant.

But scales are not just a set of pitches, but also have a root note.

You can establish the key of C and play a chromatic scale from c' up to c'' and there would be the feeling to accept C as the root of the scale.

So the chromatic scale is kind of a _total_ (all 12 pitch names) and _trivial_ example, as you pointed out, very symmetric and usually not so interesting for analysis if you want to detect and describe structure.

In general it depends on the music. If the music is based on diatonics, then a major scale or it's modes will be a fitting primitive for analysis, considering chromatic notes something like side notes.

On the other hand 12-tone music uses a chromatic scale as a basis, negating the structure and hierarchy of diatonic scales.

So I don't see a problem with transposing a chromatic scale, it's useful and necessary for mathematical sound systems (helpful for computation) to define operations, even if there is no direct gain (functionally speaking - identity / mempty etc.) :

1 + 0 = 1

shwestrick

I don't think this is really anything to do with music vs programming. The author just used the wrong words... it's pretty clear they meant "generate a chromatic scale starting at any note" ;)

Thanks for bringing up the connection with symmetric scales -- these are really interesting!

paradygm

If you want to go further down the rabbit hole of symmetrical scales, checkout Olivier Messiaen's modes of limited transposition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_of_limited_transposition. For a given set of pitches within an octave there are a limited number of times those pitches can be transposed before you wind up with the same set of pitches. And the modes in that scale must also be fewer in number than the number of pitches in the scale, meaning at least two modes of the scale must have the same interval spelling. The simplest example is the whole tone scale. Up a half step I get the same set of pitches, another half step and I get the same pitches I started with, so it is 'limited' to one transposition. And there is only one mode of the whole tone scale, since no matter where I start I always have the same set of intervals.

piannucci

Shtaaap, you’re headed for the Totient Function! Collision immanent, abort, abort!

sampo

There are maybe three aspects to music theory:

(1) Theory of how things sound like: Tones, melodies, scales, chords, based on the frequencies of individual sounds.

(2) How to name things.

(3) How to handle the mess of naming things in Western music theory, where things have 12 different names, depending on which note you choose as the base.

This post seems to focus on 3.

867-5309

most disciplines, music included, have theory and practice. how things sound is an element of the latter, whereas why things sound the former. this article as the title atates is about music theory and does a pretty decent job IMO

I would be delighted to see a follow up article that explores frequencies and harmonics while sticking with the code demonstrations and incorporating a simple tone generator for the practice side of things

DavidPiper

Here I was expecting you to say:

(1) Melody

(2) Harmony

(3) Rhythm

:-)

analog31

It would be interesting to go through a modern college level music theory textbook and break it down into which of those 3 things each concept falls into. I can't imagine getting past maybe the first chapter.

andrepd

> How to handle the mess of naming things in Western music theory, where things have 12 different names, depending on which note you choose as the base.

You are missing the point.

max_

I once listened to a podcast where fourier transforms were used to generate sounds that otherwise don't exist.

tobr

Could you maybe share which podcast? Generating “sounds that otherwise don’t exist” does not sound particularly remarkable taken at face value. It’s basically what any synthesizer or audio processor does, and Fourier transforms are also a very commonly used in audio processing.

max_

This podcast. The episode of Joseph Fourier.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00srz5b/episodes/downloads

What I meant by "sounds that otherwise don’t exist" are sounds that are too complex to be created by physical music instruments its easier to simulate them by computer.

Jenz

> sounds that otherwise don’t exist.

hmmm

billfruit

Why is that mess necessary? Cant a semantically rich notation be devised to avoid that mess?.

reikonomusha

To me, that’s like asking “why are inconsistencies in English necessary? can’t we all just learn Esperanto?” There’s hundreds of years worth of written music, hundreds of years worth of pedagogical material, and millions of people who simply will not “un-learn” the current tradition. Just like English, over the centuries, music notation evolves, but only just does that, evolves.

sideshowb

Anyone wanting to take things back a step further to first principles may enjoy this (shameless plug - I wrote it)

Deriving the piano keyboard from biological principles using clustering (Jupyter)

https://fiftysevendegreesofrad.github.io/JupyterNotes/piano....

harperlee

> If you hear a sound of frequency f and others of frequency 2f, 3f, etc then there's a good chance these sounds come from the same object, due to the physical principle of resonance. And so our perception of sound evolved to reflect this...

Wow that's interesting enough to share as a standalone post, so I took the liberty! Thanks for the link!

enriquto

The quoted sentence seems false to me. Most physical objects do not have naturally harmonic vibration spectra. The vibration modes are not integer multiples ofthe fundamental (except for a vibrating string). Only the finely tuned western instruments do. So this is a somewhat backwards argument.

jacquesm

> Most physical objects do not have naturally harmonic vibration spectra.

What is your basis for saying this?

A large number of physical objects, solids as well as hollow can be approximated as systems of springs, surfaces and tensile elements, which all have some frequency response. It isn't rare at all for a physical system to have a very sharp resonant peak in its frequency response, to the point that you'll often find mechanisms to dampen that response so the structure will survive certain inputs.

kortex

You have the causality backwards though. It isn't saying most objects emit quantized overtones. But if you hear quantized overtones, there's a very good chance they are from the same source.

It's not just strings, either. Drum heads have varying degrees of quantized modes.

OscarCunningham

The code itself also contradicts that sentence. Notice that the first roughness graph doesn't have any local minima at rational numbers. It's only when the overtones are added to the notes (at integer multiples of the fundamental frequency) that the minima appear.

So the code thinks that human ears don't detect integer multiples specifically, they just detect sounds whose overtones line up with each other.

IggleSniggle

I don't think so. If a sound persists long enough to hear its continuation, then its partials are generally going to be harmonic. Non-resonant frequencies will have a tendency to dissipate very quickly, unless they are explicitly designed to warble between resonances (like a gong or similar).

sideshowb

@harperlee no worries about the share, it's great to see the variety of responses on the other thread

blagie

As someone who might use these with kids: I think the problem with both of these is lack of, well, sound.

To get things, people need to hear sounds, not just see note names and pictures.

867-5309

it could be argued that this is music theory, and therefore sound belongs to the realm of music practice

delineator

Things get more fun when we explore musical tunings other than the 12 equal divisions of the octave (EDO) of Western music.

You can define interval structure as a sequence of large L, small s, and optionally medium M steps.

For example, the Major diatonic scale - a 7 note scale from 12 EDO - in Ls notation is:

   LLsLLLs with L: 2  s: 1 (12=2+2+1+2+2+2+1)
A 19 EDO, 7 note scale:

   LLsLLLs with L: 3  s: 2 (19=3+3+2+3+3+3+2)
And here's a 19 EDO scale with 9 notes (Godzilla-9):

   LLsLsLsLsLs with L: 3 s: 1 (19=3+3+1+3+1+3+1+3+1)
You can then explore frequency ratios beyond those available in 12 EDO: https://github.com/robmckinnon/pitfalls/blob/main/lib/ratios...

And chords based on those ratios: https://github.com/robmckinnon/pitfalls/blob/main/lib/chords...

The above links are Lua code files for a monome norns library for exploring microtonal tuning: https://llllllll.co/t/pitfalls/37795

algesten

A perfect 5th is not the same as a diminished 6th unless we assume equal temperament tuning. Granted it is the dominant tuning, but it irks me when this is just silently assumed.

Plenty of music around that is recorded using actual perfect intervals, so why muddy the waters?

jedimastert

I think going out of equal temperament into other modes of tuning/intonation would definitely be considered outside of "basic music theory".

It feels like grumping about some inaccuracies/glossing over in elementary school mathematics because of the existence of imaginary numbers.

IggleSniggle

I firmly disagree. I learned about staying "in tune" with those that I was playing with in an ensemble long before I learned about equal-temperament and its concessions to multi-key harmony.

I'd say removing the beats from your partials is way more fundamental to both music making and music theory than chromaticism. Chromaticism is the next step, beyond basic music theory.

jedimastert

> I learned about staying "in tune" with those that I was playing with in an ensemble long before I learned about equal-temperament and its concessions to multi-key harmony.

I'd consider that a performance technique before a theory aspect, like vibrato speed and control or enharmonic fingerings.

Consider this: If you were in a duet as a beginner and the sheet music had your partner playing a C and you playing an A double-flat, how would you be instructed to play it?

You'd be told it was enharmonic to a G, and play it as a G.

Until you start reaching deep into historical re-enactment or advanced theory, it's very safe to assume equal temperament and leave the ear-adjustment to performance.

undefined

[deleted]

mvanga

Interesting. Do you have some reference or link where I can learn more?

algesten

The wikipedia page is pretty good https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament#Comparison_w...

A fifth might even sound off key if you're very used to equal temperament (it's about 2 cents below an equal temperament). You know it by there being no or less "wobbling" between the tones.

For listening tips, look for vocalist groups where there's "One Voice Per Part" (OVPP). Voces8, Vox Luminis, etc. When there's only one voice, you don't get the inherent wobbling happening when two instruments/voices play in unison.

Not all genres are possible to have just (jazz chord colors would sound rubbish).

ebiester

You basically can look up just intonation versus equal temperament for the basics. https://pages.mtu.edu/~suits/scales.html gives the mathematical answer but doesn't get into the history.

A clause that says "assuming twelve-tone equal temperament" would be sufficient here, but you can really go down the rabbit hole if you start digging into scales (see microtonal), and your page is meant to be more basic.

mmcconnell1618

Here's some good background on equal temperament as explain by Howard Goodall on a BBC series about music:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41g2fSYZ4Sc

codeulike

This is great but if we could go back in time and influence the naming conventions so that the 12 semitones were called A-L or just numbered 1 to 12, and if the intervals were named after the actual semitone distance (a 'fifth' is actually seven semitones) the whole thing would be soooo much less jargonny. With all that bumf removed, the patterns of the 'scales' and 'chords' would be foregrounded and thats the actually interesting bit IMHO (the bit defined as 'formulas = {..}' in the article)

klodolph

People have had this idea before but I've never seen a version of it that is better than our existing notation systems. Most of our music is diatonic, and we named the notes in our scale A B C D E F G. Seven notes in the scale, seven letters. Seven positions on the staff.

Our harmonies are built on stacked thirds, and the stacked thirds line up perfectly on a staff. Line, line, line; or space, space, space. Three dots stacked neatly on top of each other. Easy peasy. Easy to read all the common intervals at a glance, once you get past an octave it starts getting a bit harder.

If you had chromatic notation, you'd allocate a bunch of extra space and names for things that you spend most of your time not using. An octave would have eleven spaces in the middle, which is practically unreadable.

I think in the long-run chromatic notation is just hostile. Go ahead and use chromatic solfege, that's super useful, but chromatic notation is usually not.

Most often I hear the criticsm from people who are not musicians or do not know how to read music. It's often smart people with an analytical mind, but people who don't have much experience with music. Just speaking from my own experience, it's much harder to read a chord from a piano roll than to read a chord from traditional notation.

seba_dos1

In some parts of the world, it's A H C D E F G, with B being what you'd call B flat.

Because of that, it took me way too long to figure out that there was any sense in the note names.

codeulike

I appreciate most of your points and I appreciate the conciseness of the stave notation for example. But ...

A B C D E F G. Seven notes in the scale, seven letters. Seven positions on the staff.

Thats fine as long as you're in C Major. As soon as you depart from C Major it all starts going wonky. Why is C Major baked into the notation as if you'd never want to use anything else?

klodolph

> Thats fine as long as you're in C Major. As soon as you depart from C Major it all starts going wonky. Why is C Major baked into the notation as if you'd never want to use anything else?

Actually, it works for every major scale and natural minor scale!

What are the notes in E major? E F# G# A B C# D# E.

It's still the same letters, E F G A B C D. Now, you may think that this is CHEATING because I've added sharps. But when you write it out on staff paper, the sharps get shoved off to the side on the far left in the key signature, and you basically forget that they are there. You really still just care about seven notes, so you still have seven letters, and seven spaces on the staff, they're just a different seven notes from the C major scale.

You have to know which key the song is in... but you have to do that anyway.

When I say that you basically forget that they are there... I mean it. This does not even require an especially advanced level of musical skill. People with even a passing interest in music theory should be able to breeze past it.

kortex

You have to pick something as your starting point.

The sharps and flats diatonic system is way easier to read because you just mentally parse "key of D" instead of "start on D but also sharp the F and C". It takes time but your brain just starts to grok shapes.

"Piano roll" notation, like in DAWs/midi editors, is actually in certain ways a lot hard to read than staff notation, due to the lower density and lack of reference frame. It _is_ easier to see chord shapes transposed up and down as the same. But I'd argue that's an anti-feature, because of said lack of reference points. The symmetry /sameness makes it a lot easier to start on the wrong note.

seba_dos1

> Thats fine as long as you're in C Major.

C major, yes, but also A minor - where it actually starts from A :)

chjdev

There probably is a better or more general notation system, but specifically for western music it is actually pretty efficient and logical once you start working with it a bit. Just don't put too much weight on the names and think in intervals. You have a scale made up of 7 notes/intervals with the "fifth" simply being the fifth note in the scale. Same with third, etc. The specific flavor (major/minor) of e.g. the third you're playing usually depends on the mode, but it is still a "third" and serves the same-ish function. Extending the names i think would actually be more confusing. I'd argue it already puts the patterns of scales and chords in the foreground.

keymasta

I'm too excited not to comment on here specifically, although I have another comment in this thread already. I made a proposal for this in my book which isn't out yet but basically I'm using only consonants for these.. so that I can link a vowel for a separate encoding.. so in order of notes where their set notation is 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11, B D F G J K L M N P R S.

It's an idea, and possibly somewhat arbitrary, but it's a proposal at least and it will connect to other things well due to uniformity. Then there's my python code which takes a scale.. and writes nonsense with shakespeare verse using words beginning with the letters that spell them. Then words can be used to learn melodies.

But what I was really thinking about more is like depending on the vowel after that letter you will form different chord qualities.. The first most important being the unison, or 'a'.. so to play a major scale with single notes you would say Ba Fa Ja Ka Ma Pa Sa.

But to say the seventh chords that the major scale implies you'd say: BatEk FabEt JabEt KaTEk MatEt PabEt Sabat, which would be a a way of saying: DMa7 Emi7 F♯mi7 GMa7 A7 Bmi7 C♯⌀ - but way less syllables

⌀ is pronounced "half diminished" or "half diminished seventh" which is a mi7(♭5) which would be pronounced "minor seven flat five" for those who don't know.

The insanity of modern music theory is the superimposition of the number 7 (A B C D E F G) onto the number 12 (the number of notes).. everything in the system is skewed by this fundamental wonky shape. But I'll remind everyone that 12/2=6 and 12/3=4 and from these facts more logical systems can be envisioned, as opposed what's 12 notes with 7 names. 12/7=? A number that seems not to have relevance to the comprehension of music patterns.. BESIDE the fact we are forced to think like that with things that conform to 12/7 like sheet music, note names, or piano key locations...

But nature and even a guitar fretboard has less concept of the obsession with the number 7 by design.

bazeblackwood

I've been working on a fixed chromatic solfege system (MaNePu) for a while as well. It uses a repeating vowel pattern which I find produces some really interesting effects. In MaNePu, the chromatic scale is ma - ne - pu - qa - re - su - ta - ve - wu - xa - ye - zu. In other words, consonants starting with M til the end of the alphabet, and rotating through the vowel sounds "ah", "ee", and "ooh". What's neat about this is that the pattern repeats every minor third, so that means every diminished scale internally rhymes! Similarly, transposing any melody by a minor third will also result in a melody that rhymes with the former. Likewise, either whole tone scale will result in a reversal of the vowel pattern. There are other fixed chromatic solfege systems that use an alternating vowel pattern, but MaNePu is the only one that uses a minor third rotation (the others I've seen typically alternate by whole tone), and I think it opens up some interesting avenues for music education.

I like your shortened chord quality convention, though MaNePu takes a different tack. Instead, it favors what I call "descriptive chord naming". Instead of being prescriptive about the quality, a chord is simply described by appending the notes contained within it. This is great because it also removes ambiguity in the cases where a chord might include certain notes or exclude certain notes implicitly. So Dmaj7 would be PuTaXaNe ("Xa" is pronounced like a "j"/"sh" sound sort of like in Pinyin). It also typically reduces the number of syllables spoken, like your system.

The superimposition of 7 on 12 as you put it, is indeed a problem, but there's also an issue with intervallic favoritism (of half and whole tones). After all, there are 7 note scales with minor third intervals, and so on—imagine a world where one of those scales was the basis for diatonicism. Representing that on a keyboard, and the subsequent accidentals would be a nightmare.

Notation is the big unsolved problem, I think, but I'm aware of some work being done in the area if you're interested. As far as the public facing projects I'm aware of, Dodeka is likely the most promising.

keymasta

Your MaNePu system sounds very cool! It's interesting that you speak of the symmetry vis a vis the number 3. My "way of word" has a similar property. It's based on trigrams from the I-Ching and all of that follows the diminished (3) geometry.

Regarding spelling chords as the iteration over their notes like MaReVe for a major chord, my system can do this as well, by using an -a ending for each letter. In this case a major chord would be BaJaMa. Or even just B' J' M', as in "B'eatles J'amming M'usic" et al. I think this would be used melodically rather than chordally in my system.

Let's say that the first measure of the melody to Ode To Joy is (in MaNePu, Jazz, Word notes):

Ja Ja Ka Ma Ma Ka Ja Fa Ba Ba Fa Ja Ja Fa Fa

3 3 4 5 5 4 3 2 1 1 2 3 3 2 2

Re Re Su Ve Ve Su Re Pu Ma Ma Pu Re Re Pu Pu

It's great to see that. I immediately notice we're both using consonants only for the first character. I can describe to you the trigram lines being referred to in MaNePu as a bottom line if ending in a, middle if e, and top if u. But the glyphs didn't work here so find the trigrams. I notice you didn't demote the letter 'u' out of your system. I personally am much more partial to the letter 'o'. ;)

We can write this passage with the bass accompaniment as well. Bassline just plays 1/Ja/Ma and 5/Ma/Ve. Weird to look at here because Ma=root for you and Ma=fifth for me! Obviously our layperson reader might not also know that Ma is a standard way to notate a major chord in music, as well.. which kind of also has nothing to do with the first two Ma's we were discussing. And we're not going to bring your mom into it either ;) Anyway here it is. Maybe mistakes (?) cause I'm handwriting here, and I just learned your system:

Bat BAt BAk BApEp Map MApAt MApAb MapEp Bap Bap BIp BAt Bat BIp Map

3/1 3 4 5 5/5 4 3 2/5 1 1 2 3 3/1 2 2/5

ReMa Re Su VeMa Ve Su Re PuVe Ma Ma Pu Re ReMa Pu PuVe

As a critique of your system if I was fluent and you read that out to me, I'd be unsure of when the root actually changes.. because when I read ReMa out I think of playing F# then D. As opposed to F#/D (at the same time).

I use an idea more analogous to the jazz chord symbol system where one specifies the root and the harmony as a compound symbol.. Like 1ma7 or b5mi7. There are actually two separate systems at work in chord symbols like this, and my system is the same as that concept. So you can go either way with "word". That is, using notes (horizontal) vs. using harmonies (vertical). I want to point out that when my system uses less letters it's because the last letters are "A" or "p" meaning no notes in this quarter. That's why some are only one syllable instead of my mentioning two. In another way if a chord is over the root we could omit the B at the beginning because it would be assumed. In this second example I included all the B's and M's (1 and 5. D and A in "normal" notes). This way the melody is seperate on top and the root motion is still specified.

My site is rudimentary but all one needs to name every chord by this method is in a small chart. I threw it in a little html file because posting a table in HN is not going to work well. https://edrihan.neocities.org/ngramcharts.html

I should actually have an explanation on the site which I will add at some point.. but basically you pick a letter for each trigram (quarter scale/chord). So there are four. If they are the first/third it's the vowel, and second/fourth is a consonant. That makes up your quality. Then you combine that with a root-letter of mine. Because those are consonants.. and my word starts with a vowel.. your five-letter word is pronounceable.

You mentioned the pinyin which I intuited on as soon as I saw the "x". You'll see pinyin on my link. Fundamentally related to way of word by its connection to the I-Ching, but not in the sense that I am using it as a sound in my system, like you are.

I like reduction of syllables for these systems. I tried to maximise this property insomuch as all 49152 expressible root-harmonies can be expressed in two syllables. I also like the descriptive property. It just so happens I designed it to be pronounceable and so seem prescriptive as well. I guess the prescriptive version here (which is also derivably descriptive) would be to use the trigram/tetragran/hexagram names. So for our major chord example.. it would be respectively,

Lightning Water Water Earth = = atEp (for some reason HN seems to censor trigram glyphs, on my system at least)

Law Increase Response = 𝌭𝌒𝌮

Sprouting Leader = ䷂䷆ = (atEp)

The trigrams and hexagrams map to this system.. but not the tetragrams. In this trigrammatic way our systems are analogous.

The 7/12 problem is one of the biggest problems with music, I feel as an artist. People have explored a small fraction of tonal possibility.

I will check out Dodeka.. Feel free to check out my material, mostly as we approach the future. I've been hoarding my work for a few years now but am unleashing things. So I guess you heard it here first cause atm I basically do not exist on the internet. But ya I wrote thousands of lines of code to get to this point.

For notation systems I like the circle geometry.. the way of word.. or simply instrument diagrams (mostly only possible with strings and keyboard instruments though, where one can visualise multiple notes simultaneously). I also like the idea of colours.

I think one thing that needs to happen in the education is for people to start learning movable-root systems like yours, mine, the jazz system, or the set system, rather than learning in static keys. People then learn 12 times as much data per neuron (-ish). I thought of a keyboard with 6+6 keys instead of the standard 5+7. Then you'd learn shapes on the instrument 6 times faster by reduction.

Ok there's stuff to meditate on.

Actually my chord naming system is "descriptive" as well but admittedly uses a slightly more compressed encoding.

mvanga

Agreed. The patterns are the most interesting bits. Actually, just the fact that there exist patterns is pretty amazing. It's unfortunately hard to see them through the notation and that made it very unintuitive for me for the longest time.

Unfortunately the momentum that Western music notation has, with a few centuries of tradition behind it, means one has to work within that system.

There was an interesting discussion I came across on Stack Exchange while writing the article: https://music.stackexchange.com/questions/67730/why-have-sha...

coldtea

>Actually, just the fact that there exist patterns is pretty amazing.

How so? If patterns didn't exist, it would just be random choices.

Any non-random music making (and thus theory) requires patterns.

protoman3000

I disagree, because with the way of writing it down we have a homomorphism, e.g. transpositions preserve relations between letters, e.g. (A D E) -> (Ab Db Eb), or (G C D) -> (G# C# D#).

Of course, for every rule there are exceptions, e.g. we have things like (F Bb C) -> (F# B C#)

a_lieb

Agreed. I whinge about this all the time. The C-based system is convenient for piano players but it's a mess for guitar players, violinists, and other instruments where there are no

There have been many attempts at a chromatic music notation, but nothing has caught on so far [1].

Things are a little better with solfege -- there is "chromatic fixed do" solfege, where every note has its own name, rather than only having a name for the "white notes," which leaves you to mentally calculate the sharps and flats.

It's a minority thing--maybe 5-10% in Europe? Even regular fixed "do" is rare in English-speaking countries, so I would assume the chromatic fixed "do" is almost unheard of in the US, Britain, etc.

At any rate, there're are at least seeds of hope for a chromatic fixed-do solfege to catch on more. I use it for my own learning.

[1] http://musicnotation.org/

codeulike

I find the paino-roll notation on DAWs to be a lot more intuitive. Not much good for perfomers of course, but it helped me understand things better. Each semitone is given the same amount of space.

jacquesm

Here's that one weird tip that you were looking for all your life but didn't realize it: pretend the front part of the piano keyboard isn't there, and just look at the part closest to the fingerboard. Presto: chromatic keyboard.

kortex

I find piano roll a lot easier to write/produce but a lot harder to sight-read.

I actually find hooktheory's system, where it's diatonic and accidentals are based on the active chord, not the current key, to be the easiest to understand relationships, but also hardest to translate into concrete notes to play.

klodolph

I find piano roll very hard to work with. The notes are just too far apart vertically.

protoman3000

> Modes are essentially left-rotations of a scale.

While true, I find this interpretation harmful to the understanding of modes. It didn't provide me with any insight and instead it seemed irregular to the other theoretical constructs we have and thus deterred and misled me in the beginning.

To me, it all clicked when I took all the modes, except Lydian, and constructed them by putting down the augmentations to the major scale in a circle-of-fifths sorted way:

Mixolydian: b7, Dorian: b7 b3, Aeolian: b7 b3 b6, ...

You can see that the modes appear walking left on the circle of fifths or walking along fourths (or going "darker", as some prefer to say). Try this out when starting at e.g. C and you see the pattern immediately.

Then take Lydian: #4

That's going right on the circle of fifths or going in fifths going "brighter".

Also, tangential comment: My music and my life has changed profoundly when I found out how to use the Lydian mode. I can't explain it, but it is just exciting.

seanhunter

One way to make that ordering work with Lydian is to start with Lydian and flatten one note each time. So say we start in C. C lydian, flatten the F# we have C Ionian, flatten the b we have C mixolydian, flatten the e we have C dorian, flatten the A we have C aeolian, flatten the d we have C phrygian, flatten the g we have C locrian

Now we flatten the C (after all this is the next note in the cycle of fifths) and we have.... B lydian. And the whole thing starts again.

In this way you can understand how all the modes and keys relate. You can do a similar thing with the other 3 similar modes of limited transposition in this order (melodic minor, harmonic minor and harmonic major).

Have fun.

paradygm

What made it click for me analyzing music, in particular rock songs like 'Gloria.' That song very strongly identifies E major as the tonic, but the D and A chords are not in E, they are diatonic to A major. To say it is in A major would mean the song's tonic would be A, but since it is E major it is more correct to say the song is in E Mixolydian.

Adam Neely recently did a great analysis of 'Hey Joe' that goes pretty deep into this stuff https://youtu.be/DVvmALPu5TU

mvanga

Oddly, for me it was the opposite!

I used to be confused on why modes required modifying certain notes from a major scale until I tried deriving them in the way shown in the article.

Of course, once you understand that, the way you go about memorizing and practicing is probably easier the way you described; that is, deriving modes in any given key by modifying notes of the major scale using the circle of fifths.

protoman3000

> modes required modifying certain notes from a major scale

But why though? If you're improvising on a dominant (e.g. a G7 in the key of C Major) with a G Mixolydian scale, you're actually not playing a Mixolydian sound, but Ionian, since your tonal center is C Ionian. It is true, it is indeed a G Mixolydian scale and it is using the tonal contents of our key C Ionian. But our frame is Ionian, so what is the purpose of adding Mixolydian other than ease of construction of the scale?

HorkHunter

Does any programmer suffer with music theory as well, just based on the fact that an exact thing could be called in many different ways, depends on its position, function..etc?

my brain kind of cannot accept this fact and I struggle with it

analog31

I've been programming for 40 years and playing music for 50. My original background was classical and I play jazz today. I'm a fluent reader.

I think that historically, people were already familiar with "standard" notation and terminology before they learned theory, so it wasn't a major hurdle. Not only do theory students (i.e., at the college level) know how to read, but they are also required to learn keyboard. I've heard people say: Don't try to learn theory without a keyboard in front of you.

Music instrumentation and notation are technologies and as such they are replete with historical baggage. I have an unorthodox view, which is that if someone is not already usefully reading standard music notation by adulthood, then they have no reason to learn it. Explanation of theory for non readers would be better served by using an invented notation that sidesteps the historical naming problems.

One such notation is the Nashville number system. It's not nearly universal, but for the purposes of just enjoying a wide swath of popular and folk music, it actually works. It's fun to see how many different songs boil down to a few basic patterns.

A computerized tutorial could show both notations. There is a lot of instructional material for guitar, that shows conventional notation in parallel with a notation based on a diagram of the fingerboard.

Programming would be just as bad if we were stuck with a 400 year old language. Fortunately we develop new languages, but that's because old programs just get thrown away, and it's easy to teach a computer to read a new language. We also teach programmers not only how to read, but how to create better notation themselves.

mahathu

This is the first time I heard of the Nashville number system - what's the difference to Roman Numeral Analysis? Is it essentially the same concept, but with Arabic numerals instead?

nickelcitymario

My take: It's a communication issue.

If you tell me you're going to make my life easier by teaching me "Roman numeral Analysis", I'm gonna run away. That sounds scary and vaguely reminds me of Latin class.

"Nashville number system" sounds easy to master. It's country, and country has a well-known self-imposed reputation as simple. (In truth, country can be just as complicated as anything else. But I'm talking about first impressions.)

I used to be a part of a congregation whose band spoke in 5ths and 7ths and I had no idea what they were going on about. And then I learned that part of joining the band was learning the Nashville system. It's just the simplest way to get everyone on the same page, and when you say "Nashville" musicians immediately relate to what you're saying.

analog31

Pretty much the same, adapted to the specific purposes. For instance, Nashville charts also include some notations for the form of a song, such as Intro, Verse, Chorus, etc.

A reason for the usefulness was how recorded music was made. The recording musicians had to be able to choose a key that accommodated the singer's range, on the spot. So a transpose-able format was ideal.

I think the industry in New York had a different scheme, which was to write for a "standard" male tenor voice, and rely on the musicians to handle exceptions.

nickelcitymario

Yes, but we have similar issues in programming. Is a list a hash? Is a hash a dictionary? Are these all arrays? Are arrays collections?

Of course, there is a right answer, and depending on the language, all of the above can be VERY different things. But they're also similar enough to be completely unintuitive... their distinctions take practice to master.

Likewise, in music there is a right time to call a note a flat, a right time to call it a sharp, and a right time to talk about intervals instead. They can all technically refer to the same thing, yet there is a proper word to be used in any given context.

It's all very confusing, until you start using those terms in their proper contexts on a regular basis. Just like in programming.

Some other examples:

"=" vs. "==" vs. "===" vs. ":" vs. "=>" vs. "~>"

"function_name first_parameter" vs. "function_name(first_parameter)" vs. "hash_name[key]" vs. "object.property_or_method"

"MethodName" vs. "methodName" vs. "method_name"

"function" vs. "method"

...none of these are intuitive. But we use them, we get used to them, and then they seem obvious and we wonder how we could have ever written these things differently.

I think the same goes for musical notations. I struggle with them heavily, but I'm far too casual of a guitar player to take the time and learn the language properly. It's tempting to say the problem is the complicated and confusing language of music, but I know the problem is my own unwillingness to put in the time.

noman-land

It's all about thinking in thirds. If you want an A chord it has to be A, C, E, in thirds. A major would be A, C#, E not A, Db, E because that breaks the rule of thirds.

Also, and most importantly, if you're playing an instrument like violin, C# and Db are not actually the same note. Since they happen in different contexts, and have different positions in whatever key they're in, they have different psychological roles and are actually played differently by the player.

If I'm not mistaken, a C# would be played slightly sharper, and a Db slightly flatter to fit the particular key.

pohl

A fun idea for a function to implement: the negative harmony mapping, which is a note-by-note transformation that preserves some character of the note:

  R ⟷ 5 (stable)
  2 ⟷ 4 (unstable)
  3 ⟷ ♭3 (modal)
  7 ⟷ ♭6 (leading)
  6 ⟷♭7 (hollow)
  ♭2 ⟷ ♯4 (uncanny)

 [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=et3CMn2oCsA
 [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF8CdxcdJgw

goto11

> For historical reasons, there are no sharps or flats between the notes B/C, and E/F.

Come on, that is not for "historical reasons", that is because those notes are only one semitone apart!

harry8

Different way of saying the same thing.

"For historical reasons the notes B/C and E/F are one semitone apart."

goto11

But that is not for historical reasons, that is due to the universal mathematical properties of the intervals.

The names of the notes and scales are due to historical reasons, but a major third and a fourth is one semitone apart due to math, not history.

kaoD

What the article means is: we dont have 12 notes (A B C D E F G H I J K L). Instead, for historical reasons (the choice of CMaj/Amin as a reference due to the notation evolution from heptatonic scales) we have A B C D E F G and we annotate with accidentals but, since those are not evenly spaced, there are some missing "black keys" there.

Also, what devnonymous says, which I agree with too (but that's another story...)

undefined

[deleted]

devnonymous

The idea of a semitone in Western classical music is historical not (just) tonal.

goto11

True, but that does not mean you can just space notes in a scale randomly.

devnonymous

Hmm, I guess someone should tell those people, like Like Tolgahan Çoğulu who are writing music in microtonal scales with 19, 24 or 31 notes in a scale, that their notes spacing is random.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/19_equal_temperament

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/31_equal_temperament

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_tone_system

whiddershins

“ For historical reasons, there are no sharps or flats between the notes B/C, and E/F.”

Mmmm yes, and that’s also a bit confusing because it dodges around why the scale was and is 7 notes to begin with.

xavriley

Coincidentally there are no commonly used scales or modes with two consecutive semitones. The semitone gaps are always spaced out. With 11 notes (excluding the octave), that only leaves 4 possibilities for a 7 note scale if you remove rotations. These correspond to major, harmonic minor, melodic minor and harmonic major. It’s easy to prove with pencil and paper concentrating on c to c

boomlinde

> Coincidentally there are no commonly used scales or modes with two consecutive semitones.

It's common in Bebop to add a passing tone to otherwise heptatonic scales. Consecutive semitones are also a common feature in blues.

xavriley

That’s true but in those cases they are passing tones. For examples in a bebop scale you don’t tend to arpeggiate using both the consecutive tones.

euroderf

As a kid I dismissed the piano because nobody explained to me why the keyboard was so stupid looking, laid out so irregularly. WbWbWWbWbWW. Wot? Only some self-education (much later) revealed that 12 tones per octave deliver some excellent harmonies, not 11 or 13 or 20 or 36 or whatever. Twelve. But the harmonies come only on odd steps. So we have 5 semitones to a perfect fourth (4:3 harmony), then two semitones to a perfect fifth (3:2 harmony), then 5 semitones to the octave. And then - just to keep it confusing - we have to split both of those groups of five semitones, so... we arbitrarily split them as 2-2-1 (i.e. WbWbWW keys). Thus the white/black keyboard pattern, starting at C, of WbWbWWbWbWW. If only someone had explained all this in grade school.

kaoD

I didn't really understand your explanation so I might be restating your ideas, but just in case:

> And then - just to keep it confusing - we have to split both of those groups of five semitones, so... we arbitrarily split them as 2-2-1 (i.e. WbWbWW keys). Thus the white/black keyboard pattern, starting at C, of WbWbWWbWbWW. If only someone had explained all this in grade school.

We don't arbitrarily split them! It was very much made on purpose to match the diatonic scales, which are very natural due to being a chain of fifths. E.g. from F ascending 5ths: F-C-G-D-A-E-B-¡F!

It's not arbitrary that we based modern keyboards around heptatonic scales! Then we added some black notes so we can transpose, which is pretty convenient on 12-TET.

333c

I'm not sure what you're saying. B to F is not a fifth. A fifth up from B is F#.

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