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momokoko
m463
I used to hate microsoft for locking us into shitty software for decades.
But looking back I see that they gave us all an enormous windfall in the form of comoditized hardware with decades of hardware growth. (hardware is the complement of OS software, so drive hardware costs down and OS sales go up)
You would think Apple as a hardware company would open up software to increase hardware sales, but instead it seems to try to control everything so it is fighting a battle on multiple fronts.
Abishek_Muthian
> You would think Apple as a hardware company would open up software to increase hardware sales, but instead it seems to try to control everything so it is fighting a battle on multiple fronts.
Purely on the business perspective, Apple has seen tremendous benefit with their locked ecosystem and vertical integration. Bringing that strategy to the PC market was bound to happen and it's likely going to work extraordinarily well for their share holders if performance/productivity benefits (from Apple Silicon) at low-mid end forces traditional PC consumers to Mac.
On the consumer perspective, Would we accept a $1000 PC couple of years back with no means to install other Operating System (Officially), Only 3-5 years of updates(if lucky), Use only manufacturer approved apps, Repair only at their approved centres?
Then why did we accept it to be a norm for >$1000 smartphones?
We made them smell money with our consumer decisions to trade 'freedom in computation' in smartphones and it's now coming to haunt us with personal computers. The line between Smartphones and PCs have been blurred with Apple Silicon, Google will do it with their Chromebooks(which was already happening even without their custom silicon [Update cycle, Locked boot-loaders etc.]) and Microsoft with their Surface line up.
zaroth
There’s never been more diverse software, more readily and easily available, than there is today (mainly due to the web and app stores). Software has never been easier to write, to distribute, or to monetize.
Users don’t care about if the platform is “open” or if they can install Linux. In fact, in many cases, the things are a massive source of pain to end users that want devices that just work, which the iPhone and iPad largely do.
It’s also, by the way, never been easier to build your own hardware from ready-made components and platforms.
I don’t know why we should lament users choosing devices that are easy, fun and reliable to use, and that provide them with single tap access to massive software libraries and entice them to pay for that software. Seems like an absolute win to me.
toyg
> with our consumer decisions to trade 'freedom in computation' in smartphones
TBF, the first few iPhone releases were arguably better and more open than anything before them. Apple refused to bow to carriers and provided a standard development platform for the first time. Then the Appstore, again bypassing carriers, increased developer access to mobile platforms by 1000x or more.
Sadly, both consumers and developers then failed to push for even more open alternatives, to the point where Apple and Google managed to entrench themselves too deeply to address this problem through simple market mechanisms. It's time for authorities to step in, hopefully we're seeing that (slowly) happening.
fluffy87
I have an 8 year old MacBook Air. Still getting updates, still working perfectly well. Best 1000$ ever spent on a PC. Zero seconds invested in configuring or setting up anything.
At the end of the day, buying a Computer is a tradeoff. A lot of people would very happily tradeoff freedom for other values if the value proposition is good.
tachyonbeam
Apple started out open. The Apple II has 7 extension slots and loads of peripherals available. It was also user serviceable. This is what Steve Wozniak wanted, and it worked, it was a smashing success. Steve Jobs, on the other hand, had another vision for the company, where Apple would control the user experience. The Macintosh Plus had just two extension slots, and users couldn't open the case, you needed a special extra long screwdriver.
linguae
Exactly; Steve Jobs envisioned a closed architecture for the Mac. Thankfully for Mac users who wanted a more open experience, Apple released the Macintosh II in 1987, which was styled similarly to PCs and had six NuBus expansion slots. From then until the release of the cylindrical Mac Pro in 2013, Apple always had Macs with expansion slots in its lineup. From 2013 to 2019 Apple didn’t sell Macs with internal expansion slots, but Apple resumed selling internally expandable Macs once the current “cheese grater” Mac Pro was released, albeit at a significantly higher price point compared to the 2006-12 cheese grater Mac Pro.
1vuio0pswjnm7
Another way to look at it:
Microsoft forced PC buyers to use their software by making deals with OEMs to preinstall it on every PC, hiding the cost of the software from the consumer. Most consumers did not purchase a PC with no software installed, and then purchase a license to Windows separately; the software and license came with the computer.
There are probably more similarities between Apple and Microsoft than there are differences, however tempting it may be to focus on the differences.
People love to criticise the RPi. It has its flaws and shortcomings. Nevertheless, it is a rare example of a computer that does not come with an "OS" preinstalled. Buyers can choose from a variety of OS and make their own bootable SD cards.
RuggedPineapple
The raspberry pi does have an OS preinstalled that users cant remove, which is why its so hard to get full support for the basic linux stack on there. The GPU has a proprietary low level OS/firmware blob that handles basic system functions and loading linux and starting the CPU once all that is done and is required for the board to start. This is a big part of why Armbian/Ubuntu dont have full support yet for example. Its not impossible but its weird and complex for OS developers and one of the strengths of the alternative boards, which can generally boot and run a full linux stack with hardware support for everything on the board.
ranit
It was not Microsoft, it was IBM that “gave us” commoditized hardware.
tluyben2
It was MS who forced it big; they wanted standardisation on both professional and 'home computers'; IBM PC (clones) and MSX[0] respectively, both running MS software. MSX failed, but the idea was the same; a hardware standard everyone would adhere to and MS would have the software for. MS was a huge factor in making that happen; no-one knows what would've happened if they would not have done that.
m463
I agree that IBM gave us the PC with the BIOS listing and open hardware specifications.
(and they tried to close the barn door with the ps/2, microchannel and os/2 but failed pretty miserably)
Meanwhile Microsoft with its non-exclusive software agreement courted hardware vendors and made MS-DOS and soon windows work with a multitude of hardware products. It fostered hardware competition and drove down the price.
pjmlp
No, IBM would have gladly prevented, they even tried to fix Compaq's success by releasing the PS/2 with MCA architecture, they just failed to turn the market around.
kube-system
Apple's marketing approach is primarily to view hardware and software as inseparable parts of the same product. Their main differentiator in the market is their ability to control the end-user experience to a greater degree than their competitors.
They are probably of the opinion that opening up software would decrease their target customer satisfaction and subsequently decrease sales.
flohofwoe
> Apple as a hardware company
Apple is now (primarily) a software-service company, and from that point of view, a locked-up platform makes a lot of business sense (unfortunately). Selling hardware is only the first step in locking customers into their service-ecosystem. In this new Apple world, app-developers are essentially Uber/Lyft-style gig-workers, not independent businesses.
toyg
> Apple is now (primarily) a software-service company
They like to tell everyone that, but it's still very much a lie. More than 50% of their revenues come straight from iPhone hardware sales. Services are barely under 18%, and that includes absolutely everything they can throw in there (icloud, appstore, etc). Everything else is hardware.
Apple is a hardware company that is desperately trying to ensure their future when, inevitably, they'll get a few iPhones wrong and consumers will move on. It's a bit like Persian Gulf countries investing in airlines and anything else to ensure they'll have a future when oil runs out.
alisonkisk
IBM did that by licensing the PC "clone" design, not Microsoft. Microsoft added the lockdown layer on top.
pjmlp
They did not license anything, Compaq stole it from them.
stjohnswarts
Business is conservative. If it stops making bucketloads of money with the current formula then they will change. Otherwise expect the same for as long as it works for them.
SllX
I really think the reality is more boring than openness vs closed-ness as kinds of existential threats to each other.
Given large enough and open enough markets, there’s niches for multiple approaches, whether that was the DOS/Windows approach of proprietary software and commoditized hardware, the Apple approach of proprietary hardware and software that uses open standards (which was also more or less the Unix workstation approach), the Amazon approach of commoditized compute and storage, or the FOSS approach of commoditized software on commoditized hardware which has further subdivisions that gave rise to Linux, GNU/Linux and multiple BSDs. Even MINIX and L4 have niches that they can and do fill, and isn’t QNX used in a bunch of cars?
The economy, American, Global, European, wherever you want to draw your lines, supports all of these approaches simultaneously because they all have benefits and drawbacks. Not the most exciting statement to make, so as an idea I feel like it just gets overlooked. People will use what they will wherever it makes sense and others will look at them funny and wish they did something different.
Still, it’s something to behold that the same decade that saw Apple make more money while locking down and shedding supplier relationships and most of the open standards they used to support also saw Raspberry Pis, Android replace at least three major mobile OSs, the web become more closed off (compared to the prior decades), RISC-V, Microsoft buying GitHub, and Raptor Computing Systems selling open POWER9 workstations. I don’t pay them much mind but I hear System 76 is doing well for itself selling good Linux PCs.
I wouldn’t worry about computers becoming more locked down. Even second and third rate machines in their class are pretty good these days.
soperj
It's interesting to think that if Apple had won the PC wars how closed everything would be.
gnarbarian
It's actually /why/ they never had a chance of winning.
ogre_codes
Apple opened up to third party licensees for some time. It only hurt the their profitability while gaining Mac OS very little market share.
Apple "lost" the PC war because they were trying to sell slow computers for more money than the fastest available PCs. People bitch about the Apple tax now, but the premium for modern Macs is nowhere near as bad as it used to be. (And from the early signs, bang for the buck the M1 Macs are ahead of the PC industry)
nojvek
Well they are winning with iPhones aren’t they?
pjmlp
PC clones only happened to the reverse engineering success from Compaq and IBM being unable to prevent it in court.
All other 16 bit platforms were just like the Macs back then.
rsfinn
Virtually every desktop computer today uses a bitmapped display and a pointing device... like the Macintosh.
Virtually every mobile device today uses a touch-sensitive display (and a Unix-derived OS)... like the iPhone.
Apple Inc. is the most valuable company in human history.
Tell me again how Apple lost the PC wars? ;-)
njanirudh
First capacitive touch screen phone was LG Prada [1]
There were many valuable companies in the past but they are not anymore. Apple must not push its customers limits too much or it may backfire.
rowanG077
This is one of the things that really, really make me mad internally. Phones are exactly like you describe locked down proprietary pieces of hardware. The computing world could be so much better if it everything was open.
I fear everyday that the arm "revolution" will make open computing a thing of the past. Look at the arm laptops that are released. Not a single one can run Linux.
hedora
The pine book pro runs linux. Also, the bootloader can be unlocked on the new mac arm laptops.
heavyset_go
It isn't the locked bootloader that is the issue with porting Linux to new ARM Macs, it's that ARM SoCs require vendor support for Linux in varying degrees, and Apple has made it clear that they won't support other OSes on ARM Macs outside of virtualization.
WolfRazu
But Linux can run on arm just fine? I used to run my website and a bunch of other stuff on an arm64 VPS.
heavyset_go
It isn't that the CPU architecture that's the problem, because that's well supported, it's the rest of the hardware configuration that isn't standardized and is almost always unique between ARM SoCs.
ARM servers use UEFI, and have enumerable buses for hardware detection, while most ARM SoCs require a custom bootloader or a forked open source one, and can't enumerate over hardware, thus requiring something like the DeviceTree in Linux.
Here's an idea of what kind of work ARM SoCs need for Linux to run on them[1].
rowanG077
Yes but the instruction set is only a tiny part of conpatibility. Intel and amd have generally standardized on ACPI for hardware discovery for example. But ARM has not. This means there is no Generic way to know what the capabilities of arm system are. That's Just one of the issues though.
dreamcompiler
> Not a single one can run Linux.
My ARM Chromebook which boots into Linux would beg to differ.
rowanG077
Then stuff has changed recently. The last time I looked this up it was custom stuff and I couldn't just download Ubuntu or some other distro and press install.
oblio
Can you put stock Debian on it as easily as I can on a PC?
CameronNemo
>Look at the arm laptops that are released. Not a single one can run Linux.
Some of the earliest ARM laptops ran Chrome OS, which is an image based Linux distro (vs package based).
People have been running more recognizable distros on some of these models for a long time, with varying degrees of success.
Take it easy on the hyperbole. There are definitely options.
heavyset_go
The vast majority of ARM SoCs' Linux support amounts to Linux forks, and not mainline Linux support. Forks eventually stop being maintained, and quickly become outdated.
Now that I look at it, it looks like this is the case for some[1] ARM Chromebooks, too, in that they are stuck having to use the specific ChromeOS kernels that ship with images for their Chromebook models.
goatinaboat
think this is an important reminder about what an extraordinary accident PCs were in their standardization and openness.
You have it backwards. Around the time, everything was open and well documented and hackable. PC, Amiga, ST, Archimedes... It was Macintosh that was uniquely closed.
grishka
I think having the ability to use products, any products, for a purpose that wasn't intended by their designers, is important to help overall progress of the humanity.
Abishek_Muthian
I always felt manufacturers should be forced to open the boot-loader of their obsolete devices if not for consumer rights at-least "for the environment". Motorola offering unlock codes on their website albeit voiding warranty felt like a breath of fresh air[1].
PinePhone, other open smartphones are not available in my country due to embargo; So Moto G4 Play was the obvious second choice[2] for PostmarketOS due to availability of robust mainline kernel(MSM8916).
But guess what, Motorola removed unlocking support for older devices from their portal[3]! So even though G4 Play is available widely in the used market it's useless for any aftermarket OS efforts. There's absolutely no explanation for this decision from Motorola, other than making people buy their latest devices. So, it seems that the devices unlocked(hacked) by the community is still a better choice in the long run just because the manufacturers cannot be trusted for the devices 'we own?'.
[1]https://motorola-global-portal.custhelp.com/app/standalone/b...
[2]https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11rieZf6ODM-HQkEpFYWX...
m463
I wonder if the right to repair laws that are gaining momentum might help fix this.
zepto
The forced open bootloader proposal is the only right to repair law that makes any sense.
AntiImperialist
Samsung has had bootloader unlocking as a feature in all their mobile devices for a very long time. It is available for all devices, new or old.
Reelin
> Samsung has had bootloader unlocking as a feature in all their mobile devices
This is simply not true. Some of their devices provide that but many don't. Research carefully before purchasing.
AntiImperialist
I just realized that the US carrier locked devices don't have it. So, if you have one of those, unfortunately, you'll have to use a third-party method.
Abishek_Muthian
Didn't 'Knox' mess that up for newer phones? Anyways, couple of Samsung A/J series phones does seem to work well with PostmarketOS but unfortunately display brightness cannot be adjusted making it a hard choice.
AntiImperialist
You'll void your warranty and never be able to use Knox again if you switch back to Samsung firmware once you unlock bootloader. But no, Knox doesn't prevent you from unlocking bootloader in any way.
simonmales
I was gifted an iDevice but sold it recently as Apple stopped supporting it. Having spent years bringing all PCs back to life with Linux all I could do was think what a waste of hardware!
I agree totally with ipadlinux.org!
> Obsolete iPads could be affordable personal computers and useful for project builds. We believe Linux is the key to bring new life to these devices.
Looking forward!
darren_
This is one place where apple’s ban on alternative browser engines really hurts users, IMO. I’d be pretty comfy using an old iPad that was out of security support, _if_ it had an up to date browser. But since browser engine updates are tied to OS, there’s no way for obsoleted iPads to keep being safely used as cheap browsing machines. in this sense it might even be possible that using an outdated android is safer, if you’re just browsing and you’ve got an up to date browser.
judge2020
What iDevice? The iPad air 2 from 2014 is supported on iPadOS 14 [0] and iOS 14 goes back to the iPhone 6s from 2015 [1]. Even though older devices "aren't supported", Apple still might release an essential update for older iOS like they did with 13.7 [2], 12.4.9 [3], and 10.3.4/9.3.6[4].
0: https://www.apple.com/ipados/ipados-14/#content-toggle-spati...
1: https://www.apple.com/ios/ios-14/#content-toggle-fast-loadin...
2: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT210393#137
Macha
6 years is generous in the mobile hardware space, but when compared to traditional PC hardware, which the iPad is increasingly competing against, it is very disappointing for a piece of hardware to be out of luck after 6 years.
On Windows, any Windows 7/8/8.1 users got a free upgrade to Windows 10, and the minimum requirements for Windows 10 are the same as Windows 7 (other than for disk space, Windows 10 requires less). So that's any Windows PC in the last 11 years can still get an OS with security updates. And of course, you can always install Linux on a Windows PC.
The Apple side doesn't go quite as far back, but still most 2012 macs can install Catalina which will be supported until 2022. And Linux is pretty well supported on the non-T2 macs (pre-2015) as well.
vlozko
PCs didn’t have as long of life in the 90’s to the early 2000’s, either. In 2008 only 33% of PCs were over 3 years old. Today it’s over 60% (haven’t found a more exact statistic). iPads were going through a similar maturing process and rapidly iterating on performance and features. It’s why I can accept the notion of hardware being obsolete sooner when being an early adopter.
The big thing that makes really old iPads not worthwhile to reuse is the battery. It often becomes cost ineffective to replace them. I’m looking at my 9.7” Pro with a cracked corner of its screen. Replacing the battery will damage the screen more causing a replacement for that, too. PCs don’t have the same expectation of parts wearing out - many easily can run 10 years with no hardware maintenance.
kblev
Also, you can install whatever you want on a PC regardless of how old it is. But on iOS you can't download an older version of the app unless you've owned it previously. I do have an iPhone 4 and it's useless because I can't get any apps for it.
beagle3
While windows 10 nominally has the same requirements as win 7, it is in my experience unusable without an SSD, whereas win 7 was very usable. YMMV
mschuster91
> The Apple side doesn't go quite as far back
Oh they do, people have managed to get Big Sur running on Mac Pro 4.1 machines from 2009.
The problem with keeping Mac Pros usable is the GPU side since one is forced to use AMD, but the new drivers for new cards IIRC require AVX support on the CPU.
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simonmales
iPad 2. Also had an iPad 3, both are no longer supported by Apple.
Hurts, because the hardware still works.
jay_kyburz
I still read hacker news every day on something similar (I don't remember exactly), but no posts hosted on medium.com will open. And there is no ad blocker available as far as I know.
secondcoming
Yes. My iPad 4 (A1458) is doomed. No updates and new releases of apps don't work because the OS version isn't supported. I'm perplexed as to why the app store would even let me update those apps at all.
abacadaba
yup, my 2 still works passably as a youtube watcher though
Eric_WVGG
I’ve been hoping to see a project like this surface for vintage iPhones. Even devices going back to the iPhone 4S are absurdly fast in a way, great networking, would make fine brains for robots and all sorts of devices. It’s a pity that so many disappear from the world in one way or another.
torgian
I actually still have a 5s that I barely used due to country zone restrictions at the time. It would be cool to unlock this and get this running on a Linux os
criddell
There are third party repair places that may be able to fix your iPad for you although if it's the digitizer or screen, it may cost more to fix than the iPad is worth.
codebje
A new iPad is around AU$500, a replacement LCD is around $35, a replacement digitiser around $25, and the tool set around $15.
The expensive part is labour. If you're willing to risk some time and money on failure you can have a go yourself, there are excellent guides online.
I have an iPad 2 that I bought new long ago and have since given to my young children. Unsurprisingly one of them dropped it and the screen stopped working. I ordered the kit, opened it up, and reseated the LCD. Would have gone flawlessly if I'd been more careful while opening it up, as it stands I now need to replace the digitiser, but it's still much cheaper than a new tablet, especially while my elder daughter is in a phase of thinking she is smarter than us and can ignore warnings like "if you balance that on your knees it will fall off and break."
jtbayly
That's a new iPad, not the iPad under discussion, which is worth much less. You can often buy a replacement out-dated model for around that $75 mark, and that's ignoring the time cost of trying to fix the broken one.
simonh
Even if you don’t get new OS versions, you still get OS patches and security update for several more years. Also the App Store still seems to support devices seemingly forever. I was still able to download apps on my iPhone 3G seven years after I bought it. In terms of useful working life, these things are incredible.
DaiPlusPlus
Unfortunately you can’t download apps that the publisher removed from the store (EA Games, looking at you) even if you paid for them. If you don’t backup the IPAs (and/or don’t have a way to install them...) then you’re stuck. At least you can get a refund from Apple if you can find your iTunes/App Store purchase receipt.
sjg007
Why do you need a receipt? Seems like Apple would have all of that information..
jamesjguthrie
Through that website I found the iSH app and it’s amazing. It’s an Alpine Linux shell in an x86 emulator and it’s on the App Store.
I just installed gcc, Java, and Python on my iPad Pro. I can also install Ruby, PHP, etc. I can do most of my work now from my iPad without using Remote Desktop. Game changer. This app should be included on iPad Pro by default.
jeromenerf
It’s nice to have. As said in previous comments regarding ish releases, from TestFlight beta to the AppStore, it’s pretty slow compared to something more "native" like termed on android.
I love that it can access files (your iCloud files for instance) from the system but mounting them within "Linux" with a simple "mount -t ios . /mnt". The other way is also possible, accessing is files from the files app.
jamesgeck0
iSH is very good, and it is Alpine, but it's not _quite_ Linux, if I understand correctly. Note that the output of `uname -a` reports a kernel version of `4.20.69-ish`.
saagarjha
It reimplements system calls at the moment; you can consider it to be similar to Wine or WSL1.
Rebelgecko
Is that a real version number or just a week+sex number joke?
saagarjha
It’s a highly nice number.
swiley
iSH is amazing, but in practice most things don't work.
Try doing a git clone of a large project, it takes forever and the phone gets uncomfortably hot. Also if you don't keep the phone from locking you will have to restart the (possibly 20-30 minute long) process. You can do this by turning on location tracking (this is something apple mandated) which probably turns on the GPS RF amplifier and is one of the fastest ways to drain the battery. I've had the phone shut down while charging leaving the GPS running with another CPU intensive app before (Spotify I think.)
But on the iPad this is just about the only choice.
amelius
What happens when Apple fixes the exploit? Perhaps they can even do it remotely.
From this my only reaction is: why even bother with Apple hardware? You can't build on the brand, it's just a too unreliable path to take.
aardvarkr
This is using the Checkm8 exploit which takes advantage of an unfixable BootROM vulnerability that exists on all devices between iPhone 4s to the iPhone X. This includes all ipads and other iOS devices using Apple silicon from the same generation. https://checkm8.info/blog/checkra1n-jailbreak-exploit
yjftsjthsd-h
> why even bother with Apple hardware?
1. It's nice hardware (slim, good build quality). 2. Linux often supports hardware well after official support ends, prolonging its usefulness and keeping more gear out of the landfill.
amelius
Granted, if you already have the device, then 2 is a good reason.
But buying a new such device doesn't sound like a good idea, even if the hardware is somewhat better. You'd be supporting Apple and this means that (if lots of people have this behavior) the competition falls even more behind. There might come a day when there will be no more exploits left on Apple hardware, and then we're stuck with the choice of going to the competition which might then be worse because of the shortsightedness in our purchasing behavior, or buying into Apple's walled garden.
Making purchases based on marginally better products (following the gradient of quality) may be satisfying in the moment, but is not very wise on the long term.
just-ok
If I recall correctly, the checkm8 exploit they use is a bootrom exploit, meaning it occurs at a low-enough level exploit that it can only be patched with new hardware. Every iOS version on vulnerable hardware will forever be exploitable.
See “iDevice Compatibility” on this page: https://pangu8.com/jailbreak/checkm8/
djeiasbsbo
Hi. Just letting you know, I think this is a shady website. Pangu was a hacking/jailbreaking team, this website has taken that name to lure in people who are looking for a jailbreak tool.
They also have downloads and stuff available but obviously the official sources of such tools should be preferred!
noodlesUK
I just really wish there were some alternative uses for iPhones and iPads once they hit obsolescence. I’d love to use them as little smart home interfaces or poor-mans homepods. But they don’t generally support that kind of use...
thewebcount
I'm currently using my old iPhones for doing camera-trap photography and videography. I've got a 5s recording some bird feeders in my yard, for example. Decent camera for filming during the day. Unlike my DSLR, it's not artificially constrained to only recording 15 minutes at time. It's tiny, and if I have it near an outlet I can even power it so I don't need to worry about recharging it. It also does slow-mo if you don't mind going down to 720p. I think an iPhone 6 can do slow-mo at 1080p.
paulcarroty
Looks cool. How you solve the small space issue in old models?
thewebcount
It hasn't been an issue so far. I have recorded well over an hour at a time and had plenty of space left on the device. I haven't tried leaving it recording overnight (since the birds are in torpor then anyway). That particular phone was 64GB, which can hold something like ~4 hours of 1080p30 video.
The phone contains no apps other than the pre-installed ones, and no data other than the video I'm capturing. After moving the videos to my computer, I remove them from the phone.
LexGray
Run a local web server for the interface and enable guided access to prevent accidental clicks and swipes. Should make a decent smart interface or destination to push video or audio.
pfortuny
My mom uses an iPhone 5s as a hearing aid for her TV, with her airpods (1st gen). She cannot be happier. She does not bear using true hearing devices but this has helped her a lot.
mackrevinack
maybe sell it on ebay for whatever and buy an old android instead. having an app like tasker makes it a lot easier for that type of automation. you can even use tasker to make a basic interfaces if you want to control a lot of different things from one screen
zepto
Android isn’t really what I’d call ‘Linux’ on the iPad.
I’d be interested in running a real Linux on my old iPad hardware.
pabs3
Android uses the Linux kernel too, if the Linux kernel can run on the iPad, it is probably relatively "easy" to switch to a different userspace. At minimum, one can run (for eg) Debian in a chroot on Android:
Franciscouzo
I think you meant GNU/Linux instead of "real".
zepto
Android is a real Linux in the same way that iOS is a real BSD Unix.
damnyou
No, I don't think that's true. Android is just Linux with an Android userland.
Richard Stallman was quite correct to call it GNU/Linux, as much as I dislike the guy.
edgyquant
The opposite tho. Darwin uses a BSD userland (and a proprietary GUI stack) atop a custom kernel while Android is a Linux kernel with a custom userland (and again a proprietary GUI stack.)
They do both use bash tho ;)
ArgyleSound
What? Android’s kernel is a pretty close derivative of upstream Linux while iOS’ kernel has almost nothing to do with any current BSD distribution.
lxgr
a-Shell [0] is missing from this list.
It's a completely different approach from iSH (a couple of precompiled binaries and the capability to execute WASM/WASI "binaries", rather than userspace x86 and Linux syscall emulation) but complements it quite nicely in my experience.
gbraad
Still have some old ipads (new iPad, 3rd gen, iOS9) and other iDevices. Would live to run Linux in them... But this is not doing that, right?
anderspitman
My old iPad Air still might have the nicest screen I own across all devices, and great battery life ~7 years later. But it's feeling sluggish and is no longer supported. It's a real shame I can't run Linux on it or at least use it as a portable monitor for my Android phone.
Razengan
Everyone here harping on about how everything should be as open as “PCs”:
Do you realize that maybe some people desire things that are locked down and curated, and perhaps that may be the reason why Apple is richer than Scrooge McDuck?
And indeed, PC is the odd one out here; Apple have been locked down since before 1984 like the Commodores and Atari STs they grew up with.
Why can’t we have both? The current balance is perfect: Apple for those who like Appleness and PCs/Androids/etc. for everyone else.
By insisting your dogma upon upon those who don’t want it you’re yourself becoming the monsters you profess to combat.
Although yes, I too would like the iPad to be more open. iOS is such a painful gimping of such beautiful hardware.
swiley
Remember: app curation by Apple isn't driven by any kind of instrumentation and doesn't prevent malware until after it becomes well known. There is no advantage it gives to consumers, it just prevents apps from taking users from Apple's services.
That is: the iphone app store doesn't improve upon the OSX security situation.
Also, at least the commador64 had publicly available schematics (I think they may have been included with the machine.) The only modern phone doing this that I'm aware of is the PinePhone.
imiric
> Do you realize that maybe some people desire things that are locked down and curated
I don't think most Apple users desire this when they're making a purchase. It's more that they don't particularly care as long as the device does what they need it to do.
The desire for devices to be open for tinkering is more from technical users who are already used to open platforms.
Apple could just as well make devices to satisfy both groups, but it's not in their financial interest to do so.
globular-toast
They don't seem mutually exclusive. iPad could be exactly the same for people who want that but still open for people who don't. I assume you're not suggesting people buy Apple stuff because they know others can't play with it, like some weird jealous children?
saagarjha
Why couldn’t Apple provide this choice?
Razengan
Why doesn’t every company do everything? Why doesn’t Nintendo make phones? Why doesn’t Boeing make game consoles? They chose a market and they’re serving that, and millions of their customers are happy with them. If people need something different then other companies are there to cater to them.
saagarjha
Right, because phones with a few bits changed is equivalent to a company making an entirely different product…
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daniellarusso
What is a good tablet that can run Linux?
shakna
Remarkable 1 & 2 come with ssh and root access. Whilst they're more eReader than tablet, they are decently powerful, with an active community around them.
nextos
Microsoft Surface Go is almost flawless in terms of Linux support, only the webcamera doesn't work. The rest is fine out of the box, with a stock kernel.
It's more of a PC, but that's an advantage I think.
meowster
Is there an up-to-date resource like r/SurfaceLinux? The compatibility guide in the side bar doesn't even list to Go devices.
nextos
Their wiki is excellent: https://github.com/linux-surface/linux-surface/wiki/Supporte...
It's linked on Reddit, but the new UI makes it hard to find.
denysvitali
Google Pixel C: https://github.com/pixelc-linux/documentation
Disclaimer: I'm one of the authors
dredmorbius
Is there an available form-fitting folio keyboard with at least a six-row PC-104/105 equivalent keyboard?
denysvitali
I'm sorry but I'm not aware of any keyboard like that, bit that's just because I've never been interested in it.
What I can say for sure is that any Bluetooth keyboard works, so, as long as you find a folio-fitting one you should be fine.
hedora
justinclift
It's out of stock though. :(
arsenalist
Google seems to be pushing for Linux on Chromebooks with Crostini and I was excited with the idea of having a tablet that can spin up Linux on the go when Lenovo launched the Ideapad Duet earlier this year. Unfortunately couldn't get one as it's not released in my region and it's running on a mid range Mediatek so it's nowhere close to iPad level performance.
mr_toad
Not a tablet exactly, but some Chromebooks can run a Linux VM.
ddalex
a container, with all the things that this implies - no direct network hardware access, for example
djsumdog
Checkout the hardware comparability on PostmarketOS's wiki
zachberger
It's a bit overwhelming. There is a giant list of phones/tablets here[1] but there is no way to quickly assess their compatibility and compare their capabilities.
pabs3
They re-organised that page into tiers of device support, it is much more useful now.
MartijnBraam
Anything in the testing category is mostly "barely works"
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I think this is an important reminder about what an extraordinary accident PCs were in their standardization and openness.
It’s possible we took that for granted and assumed that openness was a given in personal computing.
The reality is that most devices, from cars to refrigerators, to video games, to cameras, etc are closed and proprietary ecosystems. PCs, due to a few happy accidents, were one of the rare things that enabled a vibrant, free from restriction, 3rd party ecosystem in both hardware and software.
Apple may be inadvertently teaching us all a lesson about not taking the things we currently enjoy for granted as they are often not guarantees in the future